Author Topic: BP - 19  (Read 73679 times)

Offline kitamu Re

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 408
    • View Profile
Re: BP - 19
« Reply #60 on: August 31, 2006, 09:24:31 pm »
Quote
*Will now dismiss everything this guy says*

sorry but I can't let hypocrites have free reign in the forum. But you are entitled your opinion,I am just not going to agree with you :o

Offline kitamu Re

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 408
    • View Profile
Re: BP - 19
« Reply #61 on: August 31, 2006, 09:27:33 pm »
Quote
You're talking about Hudlin, right?


I recognize him as a great deal of frustation for your ilk,but there is nothing you can do about it. I admire his work and he is doing a wonderful job

Offline Rollo_Tomasi

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 555
    • View Profile
Re: BP - 19
« Reply #62 on: August 31, 2006, 09:27:48 pm »
did you read the Doom issue that Reg mentioned where he called africans savages? I didn't consider that racism then and I don't now, Doom is egostistical and bigoted he is not some noble european. You might be living in fantasy land or just plain in denial if you think people don't have bigoted perceptions of each other. But I digress the Noble european doom would never call africans savages ;D

Have you read any comic books invoving Dr. Doom aside from the recent Black Panther appearance?

And incidentally, a "noble villain" is not the same a a "noble person".

A noble person is someone with few, if any, negative personality traits, or whose positive traits (usually valor, compassion, or self-sacrifice) overshadow their lesser traits and make them memorable to people as a hero.

A noble villain is simply a villain who has a real reason for what they're doing, as opposed to the "regular" villain, who acts out of insanity or habit. Most of DC's villains are "regular" villains...the Joker kills people because that's just what he does. Lex Luthor is just evil. Always. In any universe, even the one where he's supposed to be a good guy, he will always turn out to be a villain. Because that's the way it is. Most of Marvel's premier villains are "noble" villains, inasmuch as they *believe* they're doing the right thing. Magneto, Doom, and Thanos would be examples. All three of them do horrible things, but we, as the readers, are privy to their reasons for acting. Doom, aside from being somewhat crazy, is a horribly scarred man, physically and emotionally, who lost both of his parents to a brutal dictator and a demon from hell. His reasons for being the way he is are complex. Try reading Books of Doom for more info. Magneto honestly believes that humans will be the end of the Mutant race, and having witnessed the Nazis in action, will do everything he can to stop it. Does that justify what he does? Hell no. In fact, it makes most of his actions all the worse, for being hypocritial. And Thanos, of course, tried to kill the universe, simply because he was in love with Death and wanted to curry her favor.

To obtain revenge, to save your people, to win the love of a woman...these are noble pursuits. Which is why it is so compelling to have a villain motivated to do such awful things for such wonderful reasons. It's called complexity. It's found in high quality entertainment. You might want to look into it.
"There are no hereditary kings in America and no powers not created by the Constitution''

-- U.S. District Judge Anna Diggs Taylor

Offline Rollo_Tomasi

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 555
    • View Profile
Re: BP - 19
« Reply #63 on: August 31, 2006, 09:28:16 pm »
I'm still waiting for that hilarious moment when Kitamu finds out why I'm laughing at him so hard.
"There are no hereditary kings in America and no powers not created by the Constitution''

-- U.S. District Judge Anna Diggs Taylor

Offline HappyPants Panther

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
Re: BP - 19
« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2006, 09:28:49 pm »
Quote
*Will now dismiss everything this guy says*

sorry but I can't let hypocrites have free reign in the forum. But you are entitled your opinion,I am just not going to agree with you :o

I don't know what makes you think me a hypocrite, but for you to say you didn't see any racism in BP's villains is ridiculous. Then you knock someone for typing "crap about racist villians plaguing black panther" when the person you're defending does just that all the time...I don't know what to say... Maybe you're just really young or something.
 
Marvel has yet to change their Black Panther Bio page to reflect Hudlin's history. Yes! There's still hope.

Offline Rollo_Tomasi

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 555
    • View Profile
Re: BP - 19
« Reply #65 on: August 31, 2006, 09:31:59 pm »
Quote
*Will now dismiss everything this guy says*

sorry but I can't let hypocrites have free reign in the forum. But you are entitled your opinion,I am just not going to agree with you :o

I don't know what makes you think me a hypocrite, but for you to say you didn't see any racism in BP's villains is ridiculous. Then you knock someone for typing "crap about racist villians plaguing black panther" when the person you're defending does just that all the time...I don't know what to say... Maybe you're just really young or something.
 
Considering that he also thinks I'm a white guy....I'm thinking he's actually from an alternate reality. You know, like Sliders, only retarded. 
"There are no hereditary kings in America and no powers not created by the Constitution''

-- U.S. District Judge Anna Diggs Taylor

Offline HappyPants Panther

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
Re: BP - 19
« Reply #66 on: August 31, 2006, 09:36:00 pm »
Considering that he also thinks I'm a white guy....I'm thinking he's actually from an alternate reality. You know, like Sliders, only retarded. 

LMAO!

Its funny, though. Just as the continuity complaints were dying down due to recent changes/corrections, this happens. Hudlin just get it right. Well, thats not true. He has his audience. They don't mind anything he does.
Marvel has yet to change their Black Panther Bio page to reflect Hudlin's history. Yes! There's still hope.

Offline Rollo_Tomasi

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 555
    • View Profile
Re: BP - 19
« Reply #67 on: August 31, 2006, 09:39:45 pm »
Considering that he also thinks I'm a white guy....I'm thinking he's actually from an alternate reality. You know, like Sliders, only retarded. 

LMAO!

Its funny, though. Just as the continuity complaints were dying down due to recent changes/corrections, this happens. Hudlin just get it right. Well, thats not true. He has his audience. They don't mind anything he does.
Hey look, I'm part of his audience. I buy the comic monthly, and I'll buy this one too, I'm sure. I just treat this sort of thing the way I treated the Confederacy of Dunces storyline in Marvel Knights Punisher; character consistency was bent for the sake of the story. I'm just a bit curious as to why nearly every white character, and absolutely every white villain, has been a cross-burning racist in this book. I'm not mad about it, just curious.
"There are no hereditary kings in America and no powers not created by the Constitution''

-- U.S. District Judge Anna Diggs Taylor

Offline HappyPants Panther

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
Re: BP - 19
« Reply #68 on: August 31, 2006, 09:43:01 pm »
Considering that he also thinks I'm a white guy....I'm thinking he's actually from an alternate reality. You know, like Sliders, only retarded. 

LMAO!

Its funny, though. Just as the continuity complaints were dying down due to recent changes/corrections, this happens. Hudlin just get it right. Well, thats not true. He has his audience. They don't mind anything he does.
Hey look, I'm part of his audience. I buy the comic monthly, and I'll buy this one too, I'm sure. I just treat this sort of thing the way I treated the Confederacy of Dunces storyline in Marvel Knights Punisher; character consistency was bent for the sake of the story. I'm just a bit curious as to why nearly every white character, and absolutely every white villain, has been a cross-burning racist in this book. I'm not mad about it, just curious.

I applaud your intellectual honesty. There is a certain part of his audience that doesn't acknowledge any error in Hudlin's writing. Buy and love the book, if you want, but lets not pretend there are no racist villains of Panther. Or time line issues for that matter.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2006, 09:46:21 pm by HappyPants Panther »
Marvel has yet to change their Black Panther Bio page to reflect Hudlin's history. Yes! There's still hope.

Offline kitamu Re

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 408
    • View Profile
Re: BP - 19
« Reply #69 on: August 31, 2006, 10:06:56 pm »
Quote
Doom, aside from being somewhat crazy, is a horribly scarred man, physically and emotionally, who lost both of his parents to a brutal dictator and a demon from hell. His reasons for being the way he is are complex. Try reading Books of Doom for more info

I don't buy villain books sorry, The books of Doom is for people like you. The fact remains you see doom as a hero type in some way, you sympathize with the character and the way you went on the attack I presume you admire the character moreso than the panther who scant reference is made of in your analysis. You like happypants want a return of the status quo, that priest pandered to your small clique led to the demise of the book in the first place. Reg is smart enough to not follow your lead.

Offline kitamu Re

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 408
    • View Profile
Re: BP - 19
« Reply #70 on: August 31, 2006, 10:11:45 pm »
Quote
BP's villains is ridiculous. Then you knock someone for typing "crap about racist villians plaguing black panther" when the person you're defending does just that all the time...I don't know what to say... Maybe you're just really young or something.

PROVE there is rampant racism in BP. I dont't see any racism whatsoever. please point out the issues and the page where you see racism and I might be able to see your point of view.But to make a general statement that that all the villains are racist is flat out lying. So the onus is on you and roillo to prove there is racism. I want the issue and the page.I am sure you will come up lacking as your AGENDA is to discredit the current run to justify your own transparent motives. You and rollo are like glass, clear I can see right through.

Offline blkyoda

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 385
    • View Profile
Re: BP - 19
« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2006, 10:43:28 pm »
Quote
BP's villains is ridiculous. Then you knock someone for typing "crap about racist villians plaguing black panther" when the person you're defending does just that all the time...I don't know what to say... Maybe you're just really young or something.

PROVE there is rampant racism in BP. I dont't see any racism whatsoever. please point out the issues and the page where you see racism and I might be able to see your point of view.But to make a general statement that that all the villains are racist is flat out lying. So the onus is on you and roillo to prove there is racism. I want the issue and the page.I am sure you will come up lacking as your AGENDA is to discredit the current run to justify your own transparent motives. You and rollo are like glass, clear I can see right through.

I don't Doom making racist statements is 'out of character'. This guy has had plans to eliminate half the planet that he saw as unfit to live under his rule. People with much less dramatic plans than that hate black people....However, I just think it's lazy writing. "He's a villian, he's evil, he wants to rule the world Aaaaaannnnd he's a bigot!!" It's like adding this extra extra thing just to remind us that he's a bad guy. Like, when a few years ago it was heavily suggested that Sabretooth had raped and killed several women. I mean, yeah, we can pretty much assume that that's in the emotional resume of a guy like that but I didn't care to be reminded of it everytime his character appeared. Just my preferences...

Offline Rollo_Tomasi

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 555
    • View Profile
Re: BP - 19
« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2006, 11:30:21 pm »
Quote
BP's villains is ridiculous. Then you knock someone for typing "crap about racist villians plaguing black panther" when the person you're defending does just that all the time...I don't know what to say... Maybe you're just really young or something.

PROVE there is rampant racism in BP. I dont't see any racism whatsoever. please point out the issues and the page where you see racism and I might be able to see your point of view.But to make a general statement that that all the villains are racist is flat out lying. So the onus is on you and roillo to prove there is racism. I want the issue and the page.I am sure you will come up lacking as your AGENDA is to discredit the current run to justify your own transparent motives. You and rollo are like glass, clear I can see right through.
Wait...who said the book was racist? I said that all of the villains, or rather, all of the white villains, were racists. And they were.

Klaw was a racist, and he led a group of people symbolic of the colonial forces that have exploited Africa: the Church (Black Knight), France (Batroc), The Dutch "Afrikaans" (Klaw), and America (Rhino). Really, only the Cannibal wasn't symbolic in this way, and who knows what race he originally was...to say nothing of his/her symbolism as the embodiment of the loss of identity to the invading force. Then, the House of M issue, where we met Racist Magneto, and slave-master Apocalypse (who only enslaved Africans for the purposes of this book). After that, we met a self-hating racist rap mogul in the nightclub where Cage met Black Panther, a racist Fu Manchu look-alike who (surprise!) made racist comments to the Black Panther, and of course, a city full of racist, slavery-era vampires. Which brings us to Racist Dr. Doom.

You, too, are like glass. Empty and devoid of content.
"There are no hereditary kings in America and no powers not created by the Constitution''

-- U.S. District Judge Anna Diggs Taylor

Offline Open palm

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 2980
    • View Profile
Re: BP - 19
« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2006, 11:45:37 pm »
I agree that Doom doesn't believe he's racist. But the comments he made were typical of racial prejudices. Some people want to believe they're color blind, but end up too blind to the sensitive issues. I remember when Iron Man first argued against Triathlon joining the Avengers. He didn't think he should join just to allay public opinion that the Avengers are really bigots. But as he argued he did come off expressing some prejudices.

Anyway I always thought Doom believed every human was inferior to him. In this issue he didn't verbally defend Europeans. He didn't even trust his Latverian subjects into Castle Doom.

Was the EMP too obvious a ploy? It was also used in another comic book recently (New Avengers #23?) So I say 'nay', because unlike chess you can't anticipate everything your opponent will bring to battle. One can be over-prepared. Mr. Hudlin could have written a three part story where Doom and Black Panther try to out-maneuver each other in Castle Doom. But this fight ended splendidly and quickly. That's pretty good for three powerful rulers. It could have spread wider with major casualties.
Do you prefer a hero who will confirm your deepest fears? Or a hero who will inspire faith in humanity and goodness?

Offline Open palm

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 2980
    • View Profile
Re: BP - 19
« Reply #74 on: August 31, 2006, 11:51:10 pm »
I do have one question. If this was a state visit, why couldn't Black Panther have worn his cape?
Do you prefer a hero who will confirm your deepest fears? Or a hero who will inspire faith in humanity and goodness?