Author Topic: Universal Health Care  (Read 4452 times)

Offline moor

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1134
    • View Profile
Universal Health Care
« on: January 23, 2008, 08:51:43 am »
Can anyone tell me why Mrs. Clinton's Universal Health Care package is a more viable option than Obama's expanded health care plan for young adults?

Personally, I think Kusinich's (sp?) plan to adopt the medicare structure was the most adaptable, but.. hey...I'm one of the little people, here..


Offline Tanksleyd

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1702
    • View Profile
Universal Health Care
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2008, 01:26:06 pm »
Practically all Democrats since Truman have wanted public health care. Is the Truman plan better than the Kucinich (sp?) plan? Who knows what any plan will look like once it goes through Congress and public opinion. Besides no politician is going to be a mirror image of my thoughts anyway even if is my baby sister.

In every election I am voting for a DIRECTION not a mirror image. The two directions I see are the Socialist Democracies of Northern Europe like Sweden and the Capitalist Democracies of South America like Brazil.

Not that you would find a mirror image anywhere but which do you prefer: Saturday in Amsterdam or Sunday in Santiago?

Offline Cheirel

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 863
    • View Profile
Universal Health Care
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2008, 07:30:11 pm »
My question about Universal Health Care is, who basically would like the lovely people of the DMV being responsible for your health care? I know I'm going to get e-hit in the eye but since when did health care become a right? Noone wants to see people dying in the streets but ...healthcare is a business just like everything else.

Offline Lion

  • Moderator
  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1274
  • Totally hatin'.
    • View Profile
Universal Health Care
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2008, 09:05:05 pm »
So... because a man doesn't make enough money to purchase Health insurance independently, he deserves to go bankrupt if for some reason he needs an emergency appendectomy?

See... If health insurance cost as much as car insurance, I might agree with you, but it costs a hell of a lot more. It seems rather backwards to me that the people who can least afford it should pay the most.

Offline bluezulu

  • HEF FOI
  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 2409
    • View Profile
Universal Health Care
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2008, 06:01:00 am »
Tell me about it lion. I go to the pharmacy aspirin and gauze 5 dollars. I am in the hospital aspirin and gauze 50 dollars. Any one see any thing wrong with that?

I live in the ol USA heart medication 8 bucks a pill

In mexico same thing 8 bucks a bottle.

While on the outside American hospitals and clinics are all shiny and purty but the service provided isn't that much better then in similar level countries.

Alas my company pays for my health insurance for free so Im going to stfu. ;D

Offline Mastrmynd

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 8172
  • Check my new site www.top20takeover.VVCRadio.com
    • View Profile
    • http://arvellpoe.atspace.com/
Universal Health Care
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2008, 07:28:15 am »
hahahhaha...

complainin' for the lil' man... look at you.


Listen to my entertaining radio show, "The Takeover: Top 20 Countdown" at www.top20takeover.VVCRadio.com.

Right on to the real and death to the fakers!  Peace out!

Offline Curtis Metcalf

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 4515
  • One never knows, do one?
    • View Profile
Universal Health Care
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2008, 08:10:55 am »
My question about Universal Health Care is, who basically would like the lovely people of the DMV being responsible for your health care?

As opposed to the ruthlessly efficient bureaucracy that currently administers health care? ::)
I believe that objection to universal health care and single payer systems is a canard. It works well enough in many other countries to prove that it can work. Of course, it would entail a massive reorganization with winners and losers. Something to keep in mind when evaluating health care proposals and criticism of those proposals.
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
"Be hard on systems, but soft on people."

Offline Curtis Metcalf

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 4515
  • One never knows, do one?
    • View Profile
Universal Health Care
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2008, 08:35:14 am »
I know I'm going to get e-hit in the eye but since when did health care become a right? Noone wants to see people dying in the streets but ...healthcare is a business just like everything else.[/color]


You raise a valid question: Is health care a right?
This is a matter on which reasonable people diverge. Personally, I believe that it is in much the same way we think of a right to education. Here are three perspectives on the question:

One, historical (you did ask "since when").
Franklin D. Roosevelt in his State of the Union address in 1944 proposed a second, economic Bill of Rights that included among other things: "The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health".

There is also a Universal Declaration of Human Rights adopted by the UN in 1948 that includes:
Quote
Article 25.
      (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.


Two, ethical.
Here's an essay by a Dominican Friar on the question. It strikes me as lucid and pertinent.
IS THERE A HUMAN RIGHT TO HEALTH CARE?
Here's his conclusion:
Quote
There is a human right to health care because health care is required in order to strive for a good and fulfilled human life. As the effort to recognize the right to health care leads to legislation on the part of state and federal governments in the coming years, the need to factor in personal responsibility will be important. But the need to recognize compassion as an essential factor in the provision of health care will be even more important. There is indeed a right to health care for all because it is a basic good. But in making it possible for people to exercise this right and to strive for health, the nature of the health care profession must be respected.


Third, public opinion. To a large degree, this concerns social obligation and convention. So what people believe is pertinent and, perhaps, most significant. Here's a report on an opinion poll conducted on attitudes toward human rights in the US: Human Rights in the U.S.
Quote
According to the poll, large majorities of Americans surveyed, believe “strongly,” that human rights include:
    * Equal access to quality public education (82%)
    * Access to health care (72%)
    * Fair pay for workers to meet their basic needs for food and housing” (68%)


So, the notion of a right to health care has been around for at least 60 years, has pretty sound ethical foundations, and is largely accepted by the US citizenry. That said, the devil is in the details and there are many questions -- ethical, legal, and above all, economic -- to be considered in arriving at some kind of effective health care policy. Make no mistake, we live with a system that has severe problems. Here's a description from an admittedly leftist publication that strikes me as accurate:
Quote
Despite spending far more per capita on health care than any other country, the U.S. has some of the poorest health indicators in the industrialized world. It is the only industrialized nation to deny its citizens universal access to medical services.

Fully one-third of the population lacks health insurance for at least part of the year. Of the 44 million who are completely uninsured, 78.8 percent work full or part-time and spend $80.1 billion out of their own pockets to cover health costs. The lack of available care is especially acute for those living in rural areas and for minorities. The disparities are so stark that whites in the U.S. are expected to live six years longer on average than African Americans.

This record can be largely attributed to the notion that health care is simply one commodity among others, a privilege for those who can afford it rather than a fundamental human right for all. With a system that values profits over people, it is no surprise that health care costs continue to spiral out of control for ordinary Americans even as HMOs and pharmaceutical companies accumulate record-breaking profits.


Enough for now. And I take back everything I ever muttered while enjoying lengthy posts from our esteemed brothers supreme and sinjection.  ;)
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
"Be hard on systems, but soft on people."

Offline Vic Vega

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 4151
    • View Profile
Universal Health Care
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2008, 08:48:21 am »
My question about Universal Health Care is, who basically would like the lovely people of the DMV being responsible for your health care?

As opposed to the ruthlessly efficient bureaucracy that currently administers health care? ::)
I believe that objection to universal health care and single payer systems is a canard. It works well enough in many other countries to prove that it can work. Of course, it would entail a massive reorganization with winners and losers. Something to keep in mind when evaluating health care proposals and criticism of those proposals.

The role of the big pharmacuticals in keeping medical cost high can't be overestimated. AIDS is a perfect example of this. Aside from Salk you aren't going to hear about anyone working on a AIDS vaccine. There's no money in it. There's a considerable amount of money in the drug cocktail business.

Do we want health care run by the same short-sighted greedheads who run the automobile industry?

At least if my car gets crappy gas mileage I won't end up dead.   

Offline Mastrmynd

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 8172
  • Check my new site www.top20takeover.VVCRadio.com
    • View Profile
    • http://arvellpoe.atspace.com/
Universal Health Care
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2008, 09:20:41 am »
man, you guys are HELLA smart!
i luv this place!


Listen to my entertaining radio show, "The Takeover: Top 20 Countdown" at www.top20takeover.VVCRadio.com.

Right on to the real and death to the fakers!  Peace out!

Offline Wise Son

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
  • "intelligent and slightly Black. I'm from the 80s"
    • View Profile
    • My website
Universal Health Care
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2008, 04:51:43 am »
Responding to Curtis' last post, when I was doing my teaching experience in July, we covered human rights, and healthcare was one of them. It just makes sense on every level for it to be a right:
- It is not morally justifiable to leave people suffering from illness if we can do something to treat it;

- It is not economically justifiable to cut off a huge section of your workforce from healthcare: A sick workforce is a less productive workforce (even if they're not so sick they can't work, their efficiency will be lower);

- It's not socially justifiable from any perspective. From a pragmatic POV, if you cut off a huge section of the population from healthcare, disease will run rife, and have a chance to mutate into a form that even those with healthcare can't be treated with - when we wiped out diseases like Polio, it was by treating everyone for the common good.

Cheirel's right that helathcare is a business, but that's not internationally true, and where it is true, you find that that model is actively harming society. Here, the NHS comes under a lot of fire, but a lot of politicians are reluctant to connect that the real collapse in it coincided with the introduction of 'business models' into a public institution (the same as our public transport, schools - they keep going, and are still admirable, but they have been undeniably damaged, and are really shown up by countries with properly public-funded versions of them).

"Children, if you are tired, keep going; if you are hungry, keep going; if you want to taste freedom, keep going."
-Harriet Tubman
http://yo

Offline moor

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1134
    • View Profile
Universal Health Care
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2008, 05:46:22 am »
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but the administrative costs of Medicare are actually quite low, while satisfaction is ranked highly by most medicare patients.  I'm not going to get into the Schedule A/B malarky, but, in general, Medicare works.  It's relatively faster than some of the universal systems adopted in Europe and South America, so why couldn't that model be adopted wide-scale in this country?

I still think Obama's plan is a very viable option B - mandating health care for all dependents until the age of 25... that would cover a large percentage of the 46 million in this country who have NO healthcare.. Obviously it's not as sexy as Universal coverage, but I'm not seeing where the Universal coverage is pulling funding from...  What tax hike are we going to allow as we creep closer to a "panic"??

Offline Curtis Metcalf

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 4515
  • One never knows, do one?
    • View Profile
Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2008, 07:20:04 am »
I took the liberty of spinning this topic off into its own thread instead of being buried in the endless Should Obama Run? thread.

Please consider this a bump. I would be particularly interested in hearing from the health care professionals (Cheirel, I promise: no e-hits in the eye.) although we are all consumers of health care.

Personally, I have lived in a country (France) with universal, single-payer health care and so I know it can work. One anecdote: I tore an Achilles tendon while there and the whole thing ended up costing me about $80 out of pocket including several months of physical therapy. I was back on the basketball courts in about 9 months.
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
"Be hard on systems, but soft on people."