Author Topic: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!  (Read 88834 times)

michaelintp

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Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« on: March 20, 2008, 09:51:16 pm »
Someone just forwarded this article to me.  Notwithstanding what I said about Sen. Obama’s speech, I find this highly disturbing.  For me, the line has been crossed.

Obama church published
Hamas terror manifesto

Compares charter calling for murder
of Jews to Declaration of Independence

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=59456

Promoting the Hamas terrorist agenda on the “Pastor’s Page” of the Trinity United Church of Christ newsletter goes way beyond any justification or explanation of church positions offered by Senator Obama in his recent speech. 

Before you dismiss this as a fabrication by the right-wing World Net Daily – here is a link to the actual Pastor’s Page:

http://www.bizzyblog.com/wp-images/TUCChamasColumn072207.jpg

Also, before you dismiss this with the observation that the same article was published in the Los Angeles Times Op Ed section (which expresses a wide variety of opinions on the Middle East), keep in mind that the publication of this article on the Pastor’s Page constitutes a tacit (if not express) endorsement of Hamas by Pastor Write. This is confirmed by the fact that the Pastor changed the name of the article to a more sympathetic title: the original piece was titled, "Hamas' stand" but was re-titled "A Fresh View of the Palestinian Struggle" in the church newsletter. 

Hamas is responsible for scores of shootings, suicide bombings and rocket launchings against civilian population centers, including the “suicide-bombing” murder of our friends’ only child (a young woman who was pregnant with their first grandchild).  She was a tourist in Israel visiting the Sbarro pizza shop in Jerusalem.   Yes, compliments of Hamas, our friends received a “fresh view” of their daughter and her unborn child, soaked in blood.

Hamas is listed as a terrorist group by the U.S. State Department.  In truth, Hamas is one of the most vicious anti-Semitic terrorist organizations on the face of the planet. 

For me, and perhaps for many others, enough is enough.  I feel both enraged and sick to my stomach over this.  Nothing Obama can say, no excuses, offered by him or his apologists, will justify his affiliation with this so-called “church.”

The promotion of this Hamas screed fits a demonstrable pattern of public statements by Rev. Write and figures honored by the Trinity United Church of Christ. 

For Obama to turn a blind eye to this is sickening.  If that's what he did.  Maybe he really does agree.

It is a shame that the first African-American presidential candidate of a major political party who really has a strong shot at the nomination has ties of the sort that are being revealed.

If this is what constitutes “change” – I want none of it. 



Update Added Later Same Day:

With the new revelation that Obama's church endorsed Hamas, Barak Obama has issued yet another condemnation. 

http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/107643.html

As far as I am concerned, it is too little too late.  It is impossible to believe that Sen. Obama did not know what his church and pastor were up to.  Barak Obama is not a stupid man.  A member of the Trinity United Church of Christ would have to be comatose not to know what was going on.  Write's "perspective" was expressed with sufficient frequency that only fool would not understand where the man is coming from.

Obama's condemnation of the church position now, on the eve of the holiday of Purim, is nothing but pure politics.  Aimed at placating the largely liberal American Jews -- an important segment of the Democratic Party.

This whole thing is so disgusting.

Offline Lion

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2008, 10:08:44 pm »
Mike, you're reacting too quickly.

I'm not going to say that you don't have a right to feel the way you do about Hamas or of Minister Farrakhan. Considering past atrocities by the former and statements by the latter, I'd probably have a similar gut reaction... however...

You also have to recognize that from Pastor Wright's viewpoint, we're only ever getting one side of the story - the Israeli side which is reaffirmed by our government. Considering that our government has systematically turned a blind eye to atrocities committed on American soil (slavery... lynchings... Jim Crow laws... Tuskegee experiments... etc.), I can see how Wright might believe the U.S. government might be similarly turning a blind eye to the conditions affecting - in particular - darker people. (You know... such as arming both sides of the Iraq/Iran conflict...)

Am I saying that it's right? No. But I do not equate republishing an Op. Ed piece - which provides a different picture of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - as somehow being an endorsement of the radical Islam "kill all Jews" mandate. If anything else, I see it as an attempt to show a side different than what you are most likely to see in the U.S. media.

THAT SAID...

Rev. Wright is one man. You are making a judgment about his entire character based on a snapshot of what he has said and done... and projecting that same judgment on 8000 other people (one of whom has the "misfortune" of running for president). The people that attend that church know more about the man than you do.

You keep on saying that anyone who sits in his pews week after week for year after year must somehow agree with or support everything he says or does. You are completely wrong.

Go to a Black church. Hell... Go to several Black churches. See how you are treated when you walk in the door. Ask people what they thought of the sermon. Ask them if they always agree with the pastor. Ask if the pastor ever said anything that was outright wrong or if it pissed them off. If the answer is yes, ask why they think he said it.

Hell... if I could afford it, I'd say let's organize a HEF trip to Trinity United Church of Christ so we can go speak with the congregation ourselves and get to the root of this matter.

Before you do so, keep in mind that one of the basic tenets of Christianity is to hate the sin, but love the sinner. All people have faults. If you decide you want to string Rev. Wright up by his balls, then that's your right to believe that way. Projecting that same rage on Obama and the other 8000 parishioners is no more right than it would be to declare all of Israel adulterers and murderers because David sent a man into the front lines of battle specifically so he could take the man's wife. 

michaelintp

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2008, 11:23:14 pm »
No Lion, I am not reacting too quickly.  My reaction is completely appropriate and completely justified.  Yes, I hold accountable every competant adult member of that congregation responsible for allowing the Church and its pastor to do what they've done, to promote what they've promoted.  Yes, there is collective responsibility.  Without his congregation, Write would just be one lone antisemite spewing his venom. 

Honestly, there is no excuse.  This matter is now beyond debate, and beyond negotiation, as far as I am concerned.

This talk of a "Black Church" is getting over the top.  Like that is some kind of excuse.  A church is a church.  A synagogue is a synagogue.  A mosque is a mosque.  People are people

I'm not saying every parishioner of every house of worship agrees with everything the minister/priest/rabbi/imam says.  Of course not.  But that is NOT what we are talking about here.  One has to draw the line somewhere.  There has to be some point were a decent person of principle will say, "Enough is enough. This is morally obscene. I will not tolerate this.  Even though I like him personally, I will not support this pastor and his institution with my charitable donations or with my physical presence."  A mature adult should be held responsible for the organizations they belong to and the people they support -- particularly those with a strong agenda, like the Trinity United Church of Christ and Pastor Write.

I don't care if the Trinity United Church of Christ also provides aid to the homeless or the poor or whatever the hell else they do. Thousands of churches nationwide (and I'm sure dozens of churches in Chicago) do the same.  Obama could have found another one, another "Black Church" on the South Side, that does not promote this vile hatred.  I don't care if Jeremiah Write acted like a father to Barak 20 years ago.  You don't think there are vile bigots and racists who are kind to children and to young people? 

I'm reluctant to draw comparisons to Nazis or the KKK or whatever ... because usually extreme comparisons like that are unjustified.  But really, that is the level of offense we are talking about here.  If not to the "Black congregation" of the Trinity United Church of Christ, then certainly to large numbers of American Jews who have lost family and friends to tyrants in the past and to vicious antisemitic bigots in the present. 

Perhaps Barak Obama's sensitivity needed to be raised.  Perhaps it has been raised now.  But it is too late.  You see, I hold him in too high regard to believe he could be so clueless in the past.  His claims of ignorance are beyond lame.  It is so transparent that now he is engaged in damage control to not lose the "Jewish vote."  He clearly didn't care too strongly at the time Write was ranting what he was ranting or printing what he was printing.  Maybe because ... it was "Just the Jews" ... we've heard that before.  How stupid does Barak Obama think the American Jewish Community is?  Sure, there will be some die-hard liberals and progressives who will vote for him no matter what.  But there are also plenty of discerning people who will take this into account ... and rightly do so ... when they cast their vote.

In light of this revelation ... I simply cannot trust Barak Obama.  Too much is at stake here.

Finally ... I don't know if you really comprehend how obscene, how upsetting, this situation is to me.  When I say I am feeling sick from it, I'm not exaggerating.  Because emotionally a part of me did find Obama appealing (even though I was concerned about some of his proposed policies).  You saw the way I reacted to his speech.  sh*t.  I was fawning all over it.

That is over. Now.

Offline Tanksleyd

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The 50 Year Israeli War
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2008, 12:14:14 am »
No, no Black I know supports the endless (and claimed successful) Israeli war on terrorists. Of course their opinion doesn't matter, we'll be in this Israeli war for another 50 years.

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If America knew how to deal with the ghetto (Or dealt with the ghetto first) America would have a better idea how to deal Baghdad.

Offline Lion

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2008, 01:07:26 am »
This talk of a "Black Church" is getting over the top.  Like that is some kind of excuse.  A church is a church.  A synagogue is a synagogue.  A mosque is a mosque.  People are people

People are people... and Black Americans, Jewish Americans, and Muslim Americans have different cultures and different relationships with their respective places of worship. Put simply, not everyone fits in the same shoe spiritually, logistically, or emotionally.

If you are going to condemn wholesale the entire congregation of a church, the least you can do is attempt to understand the cultural values at hand. Right now, you are judging the relationship between the black congregation and the church based on the relationship you have with the synagogue, and I'm telling you that these are two different creatures. They are both houses of worship, but the cultural and historical realities of the congregations are different.

It is the height of irresponsibility to paint everyone with the same brush.

Until 1978, the Church of Latter Day Saints preached that descendants of Africans were ineligible for salvation because we were supposed to be descendants of Cain. Are you telling me that we were supposed to declare Mitt Romney a racist because he practiced a religion that had this in their teachings? Do we have the right to demand Mitt Romney give up his religion and switch to something more palatable to the African-American community? Or completely disavow it? Even though the practices have been in place LONG before he was even born?

The Church for much of African-American history was a PLACE to get away from the prying eyes of slavemasters. It was a place where slaves - who were systematically separated from their blood-families - got together and formed a different "church family." It was a place where their opinions on the conditions and the racial conditions that followed slavery could be voiced without fear of reprisal. Put simply, with respect to African-Americans, the church has historically not only been a house of worship, but an extension of family and a refuge from the injustices that were being perpetrated against us. Although the system of slavery is gone and institutional racism has evolved into something different, the socialcultural ties of Black people to Black churches still remain. The church is a refuge and the congregation is an extension of family. Regardless of whether or not you agree with what is said in the pulpit, that congregation is your family. 150 years ago, it would have been the only family you had.

I'm not going to be stupid enough to say Jewish people were never mistreated. The Old Testament, the history books, and my racist anti-Semite Uncle who liberated a concentration camp tell me differently. It was a different type of suffering under different conditions and I imagine the re-creation of Israel and the incredible esteem the country enjoys in the eyes of Jewish-American communities is an outgrowth of that tragedy. Do Black Americans have ties on that level? No. Our ties are different. Our social triggers are different. Why? Different cultural histories. Different cultural values.

I love you Mike and I respect you, but you're wrong.

Offline karaszero

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2008, 02:54:02 am »
I agree with Lion Mike you appear to hold Obama to such a high moral standard pertaining to EVERY negative thing Pastor Wright may or may not have said over the past twenty years. Oprah also attended that church did she know about this? does she secretly condone Trinitys' ALLEGED endorsement? This is a slippery slope that you have embarked on Michael it could be seen as Anti-African American. I want to give you some food for thought, several years ago, in MD there was a horrific murder committed by two teenagers against a third who was supposedly their friend, the victim was lured to an empty house, killed then dismembered the body placed in plastic bags. The two murderers were identified, one was in custody ( he subsecquently hung himself) and the other was on the run, his father was an ATTORNEY who in a moment of MORAL clarity fled the country with his sociopathic son to whrer else?....Israel! you see they were Jewish and if I'm not mistaken ( I know you would know this) Israel has a policy that a jew could gain immediate asylum or citizen status if the need it. Anyway tthese US citizens made the choice to denounce the US, it's laws and customs, people etc. and Israel in it's own lapse of moral high ground provided sanctuary to these criminals ( German war criminals were/are hunted with a purpose bordering fanaticism) There were attempts made by the prosecutors office to get Israel to extradite these individuals back to the US to face justice However, Israel refused. Where was the justice for the murdered boy or his family?

Offline karaszero

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2008, 03:06:57 am »
How hypocritical is it of jews to cry injustice at the mention of the Holocaust and the raping/pillaging of Family wealth (which they have had the most success of ANY victims in recovering) when the Govt of Israel denied the SAME justice to it's staunchest ally the US? US policies give Israel unwavering support/money how should that be reciprocated? In the interest of parity I call on you Mike and ANY jewish american on this board to denouce Israels' actions, and Judaism as well! pick another religion. Do you see where this is going? where does it end? Don't know the answer to that, but I do know where it begins; with the realization that people are people no one is chosen above anyone else, no one is better than anyone else, and certainly no one on this planet is above atrocity given the right circumstances! 

Offline karaszero

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2008, 03:20:22 am »
Foregiveness/Understanding is the key!

Offline sinjection

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2008, 06:01:37 am »
In the 1940s before he became Israeli Prime Minister, Menachem Begin formed and was a member of an organization called the Igrun. The aim of this group was to drive British military forces and the Palestinians out of what was then called Palestine. The method used by the Igrun to effect this end were very similar to those used by Hamas and the PLO. Begin was labeled a terrorist even before his Igrun bombed the King David Hotel. The British labeled the Igrun a terrorist organization and Begin a terrorist to be arrested on sight. However, for those Jewish refugees from Europe entering Palestine illegally at that time, and perhaps others,  Begin was seen as a freedom fighter and a liberator.

Soon after his release from decades of imprisonment in South African jails, the world learned that Nelson Mandela, a leader of the African National Congress - also defined by white South Africans and the U.S. as a terrorist organization - announced his solidarity and support for the Palestine Liberation Organization. Mandela recognized the PLO as a comrade in arms. Like the ANC and the PLO, Menachem Begin's Igrun organization fought for what it perceived as the freedom of it's nation and the right of self-determination for their people.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Announcing yet another run for the Presidency on NBC's Meet The Press, Ralph Nader mentioned that Barack Obama has shown sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people but that support has seem tempered. I hope I correctly characterized his statement. It could be and I am personally convinced of this, that Obama while possibly believing the Palestinians should have a homeland of their own does not agree with the only military option open to them to gain this homeland. When a smaller military force attempts to battle an established military force recognized by the world and whose power dwarfs their own, that smaller force engages in activities that "terrorize" the sensibilities of people looking on from a distance.

I didn't read the link enclosed in this thread. It appears that Obama's foes are sifting through every aspect of the church he belongs to attempting to link him to everything SOME members of church have supported and has said. Wright's church may support Hamas. This does not follow that Barack Obama himself agrees with Wright and the church. Where are the highly offensive words of the Harlem, NY minister and Hillary Clinton supporter Rev james d manning (his name typed in lowercase to indicate my disdain for him). Where are the links to his sermon in which he called Obama a "macdaddy, a long-legged pimp who pimps white women and black women"? Where are the links to his sermon in which he essentially called Obama's father a whoremonger from Africa and Obama's mother, white trash from Kansas? Where are the links to his sermon in which manning said it was impossible to trash Obama because as he was born of white trash, he was born trash? Where are the links to manning's sermon declaring that all black males who support Obama are homosexuals, or men who impregnate black women only to abandon those women and the children they've born?

I won't post the link to that trash preached by that nutcase in Harlem, NY, but I will let you all know it's out there.
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Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2008, 07:02:55 am »
What you call an endorsement Mike, others would call seeing the other guy's side.

The same news media that paints Hamas as terrorist thugs, often paints us Black Americans as lacking and unworthy.

If we've as Black folk have learned anything its not to take the media's interpretations or reality at face value. Where else could Black folk even have these ideas disseminated BUT the church? Neither the Media nor the schools ain't gonna tell you their side.  Or OURS. 

11:00 is the most segregated hour in American life and Obama's now has to be resposible for his church lack of orthodoxy of thought. Which is part of the point of the enterprise, if you hadn't noticed. I find it weirdly disingenuous that folk are suddenly shocked, shocked to find that some Black Americans who have come from a past and present of oppression could empathise with peoples who seem similarly oppressed. 

Mike, would you similarly accuse the L.A. paper where the Hamas Manifesto was originally printed of being Anti-Israel?

Had Obama horsewhipped Rev. Wright on National Television you STILL would not have voted for him, Mike. So where are we going with this?   

Offline sinjection

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2008, 07:17:42 am »
It appears that the Rev Wright not only endorsed HAMAS, he also endorsed Bill Clinton, supporting him in the aftermath of his lying about the affair he had with Monica Lewinsky:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/20/bill-clinton-and-jeremiah_n_92670.html
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Offline bluezulu

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2008, 07:24:32 am »
I love you guys on this board. You all are smart, up front and just all around great guys. Let me give the good ol fashioned simple down south angle. Obama is not being targeted for something HE did. He is being targeted by the actions of some one else. If Obama said what Wright did or publish doctrines supporting Hamas then we can talk. Mike I get the felling that you are fishing. Fishing for anything to support a gut feeling that you have had. See when you first came to the board we had to work to assure you that Reg and the other members of the board were open and were good folks with a diffrent view points. Now I don't even want to attempt to get you to see the Rev. Wright the same way. But at least give Obama the benifit of the doubt. The man told you out of his own mouth his thoughts. That should be enough, untill proven other wise. The ultimate irony will be the day the first Jewish American takes a serious run to the white house. How political the Jewish community is do you wan't to see how that goes? Let each man stand on their own actions not on some one elses.

michaelintp

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2008, 07:47:49 am »
The Church for much of African-American history was a PLACE to get away from the prying eyes of slavemasters. It was a place where slaves - who were systematically separated from their blood-families - got together and formed a different "church family." It was a place where their opinions on the conditions and the racial conditions that followed slavery could be voiced without fear of reprisal. Put simply, with respect to African-Americans, the church has historically not only been a house of worship, but an extension of family and a refuge from the injustices that were being perpetrated against us.

Lion, if the Trinity United Church of Christ were the only Black Church on the South Side, I might sympathize with your viewpoint here. Because then Obama would not have a choice.  But we all know it is not.  I am not asking Obama to disavow Christianity, for goodness sake.  Once he saw what was going on, he should have moved to another Black Church on the South Side of Chicago.

Mike, would you similarly accuse the L.A. paper where the Hamas Manifesto was originally printed of being Anti-Israel?

The Los Angeles Times?  You bet. There are myriad examples of the paper distorting facts ... which at times in the past they've had to retract.  But at least the L.A. Times prints a diversity of viewpoints on its op ed pages.  What the Trinity United Church of Christ did was effectively endorse Hamas here.  The Pastor was not just expressing diverse viewpoints.  It was, in the Pastor's words, a "fresh view."  

This is a slippery slope that you have embarked on Michael it could be seen as Anti-African American.

Not so.  I've never viewed African-Americans as antisemites.  Frankly, I've never viewed "African-Americans" as anything specific. Each person is his or her own person, and I judge each person as an individual.  I think, from our conversations on this site for years now, you know that.  

But I have zero tolerance for antisemitism and even less tolerance for groups and advocate the genocidal extermination of Jews (which if you study the ideology of Hamas and like-minded organizations and political leaders, you will learn they do).  I have even less tolerance for those that blow to bits my friends' children ... who would love to do the same to my children, to my relatives, to my wife's relatives. Anyone who views them as "freedom fighters" is my enemy.  In a very real and very concrete sense. I also have zero tolerance for those who endorse such organizations.  I could care less if they are Black, White, Brown or [you name it].

If you are suggesting a broader issue ... that some segments of the African-American Community find Jew-hatred to be acceptable ... then those segments should be actively repudiated by the rest of the community.  And of course there are members of the community who have actively repudiated it.  I mean, Obama is doing so now ... but in his case I find it to be too little too late as it just looks way to politically expedient.

All I ask is that you put the shoe on the other foot, and imagine how you would feel if you were now in my position.  I just can't trust the guy.  I would be a fool to.  Maybe he was just totally clueless ... but I think there may be a lot of Jewish voters now who will not be willing to take that chance. 

Had Obama horsewhipped Rev. Wright on National Television you STILL would not have voted for him, Mike. So where are we going with this?  

You can respect a man, you can respect a politician, even if you vote for his opponent.  My reservations regarding Obama were on certain very specific policy grounds.  But I respected the man.  Now my reservations are much broader.  If Obama had repudiated the Hamas endorsement at the time it happened, I would have been singing his praises.  But that is not what he did.  Maybe some of you are right and he really was totally clueless ... though in light of Write's statements etc ... that is very hard to believe. I'm not willing to take that chance.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 08:03:45 am by michaelintp »

Offline Catch22

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2008, 07:53:54 am »
These are very passionate arguments.  But I see it like Bluezulu does...Obama's being attacked like he's the one who made the statements or like he's the one that reprinted the article in the church bulletin.  Now if there's some video or audio of Obama himself saying these things or sending a check to Hamas, then we'd have a problem.  These things come from a different person altogether and Lord knows we always are in full agreement with what pastors/priests/rabbis say.  How many kids have grown up with parents saying racist, hateful things, but decide to take a different path and make their own decisions about people?  Would anyone make them guilty by association or would you judge them for who they are?  Most of the people who seized on this Rev. Wright nonsense are the same people who weren't going to vote for the man anyway. 

Yes, 11:00 am Sunday is the "Most Segregated Hour In America", yes there is a such thing as the Black Church...but even though some people may want to think to the contrary...the black church is not monolithic.  It doesn't speak for every member of it's congregation.  It amazes me that folks have the audacity to assume that black people can't think for themselves in this day and age.  This whole Obama/Wright mess surely has those overtones.  Oh, Obama's in the church so he can't have his own opinion that contradicts the reverend.  Oh, Obama's getting all the black vote because he's black, never mind the fact most black folks agree with his positions on the war, healthcare, the economy, etc.    There is not a single voice that speaks for black america or individual black americans...not in the church...not on the radio...not in politics.

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2008, 08:23:08 am »
Back when I went to Catholic high school for a time (long story), I had a Religion teacher who was real big on liberation theology. He was pro-Sandenista, anti Regan among other things. He spoke about this sort of thing at length in class.

I had another teacher that was rabidly anti-abortion and endlessly spoke on THAT, so there was some balance.

Dude held Anti-American views, so I guess my political career is finished.

Not that it ever STARTED... but you get the point. I should have disavowed him, reported him to the archdiocese or the Pope or something.  ;)

Most of my classmates at the them could give a rat's ass about the Sandenista's at the time. Before and after Brother Wossisname's(I'm having a senior moment :o) speeches. But that's what he wanted to talk about. On the South Side of Chicago I doubt Hamas' agenda and its rightness or wrongness enters into Rev. Wright's thought much if at all. But its what their Pastor felt like taking about that day.

The Sandenista's were my teacher's bugaboo, not his students or mine for that matter.

Hamas may well be Rev. Wright's Bugaboo, but it hardly means that it was his congregations. Or Obama's