Author Topic: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!  (Read 88828 times)

Offline Catch22

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2008, 08:25:39 am »
There is not a single voice that speaks for black america or individual black americans...not in the church...not on the radio...not in politics.


I totally agree.  My goodness, that is evident on the HEF.  So if one specific Black Church does not represent your perspective on critically important issues, on issues of bigotry and antisemitism, you find another one.  If those issues are important to you.


OK..I've looked around the internet...even conservative blogs.  I can't find a single instance of what I would describe as anti-semitism or racist statements attributed to Jeremiah Wright.  Even the ADL states that it has no evidence of any anti-Semitism by Wright.  Now, I've heard the "Chickens Home to Roost" quote and the infamous (and out of context) "God Damn America" quote, but maybe I've missed something somewhere and I apologize if I did miss it.  Someone post a racist or anti-semitic quote attributed to Rev. Wright.  I'd like to see them for myself.  I did, however run across this article...Here that breaks down the quotes that media sharks have had a feeding frenzy with.  I'm not a church/pastor/priest/rabbi apologist, I just would like to get to the heart of the matter of these things without being blinded by emotion or righteous anger.

michaelintp

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2008, 08:25:44 am »
There is not a single voice that speaks for black america or individual black americans...not in the church...not on the radio...not in politics.

I totally agree.  My goodness, that is evident on the HEF.  So if one specific Black Church does not represent your perspective on critically important issues, on issues of bigotry and antisemitism, you find another one.  If those issues are important to you.

For example, Sinjection refers to the Harlem church of Rev James D. Manning.  How many of you would feel comfortable being a member of his congregation?  How many of you would choose his congregation when there were other Black Churches available?  Would you join that church and just hold "personal differences of opinion" with the Pastor?  If not, it is because you view his positions as so offensive that you would not wish to affiliate yourself with his church.  For those of you who would not join his church, it is because on those issues, you care.  

[Catch 22, I'm referring to "you" in the general sense, not you personally ... this comment goes beyond your post].
[Also sorry, I reposted this to add the additional paragraph and our posts crossed ... I guess it is best just to modify and leave it]
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 08:34:32 am by michaelintp »

Offline bluezulu

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2008, 08:31:09 am »
Obama is human. Obama is a lot of things and I think we can all say that a junior Senator who want to be President is ambitious. Let me say this. A black church with 8k members in Columbus Ga and in Chicago Ill. is huge. Make that Frigin huge. I read a blurb in the paper that stated all politicians visit the 8k member black church once a year, Obama joined that is the difference. I lol when I read that because in a way it is true, but my bigger point now that we know that the Clintons are not ignorant of Rev. Wright is that all politicians make a lot of decisions based on there political merit.

You are a politician who at the time wanted to represent Chicago what Church do you join? We are not politicians, if we ask them I bet most would say the 8k member one. I do believe that Obama was personally impacted by the man. I can relate to Obama in this issue as I have learned over the years that in order to fully see the whole picture of a man you have to judge him by his FULL measure. Not just bits and pieces and say that is him. You have to take a man at his full.

While Bush would openly throw support towards Israel a lot of his actions have placed them in a lot less favorable position before this "war on terror"

Does any one actually feel that Obama would take a position any diffrent then standard American policy towards Israel? Come on.

Offline Lion

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2008, 08:32:35 am »
There is not a single voice that speaks for black america or individual black americans...not in the church...not on the radio...not in politics.

I totally agree.  My goodness, that is evident on the HEF.  So if one specific Black Church does not represent your perspective on critically important issues, on issues of bigotry and antisemitism, you find another one.  If those issues are important to you.

No... That's what you would do.

Yes, on Sunday morning, I could walk into a different Black Church and be enthusiastically welcomed with open arms. However that wouldn't replace or substitute for the family connection in my current church.

It's like packing up your sh*t and moving out because your brother said something stupid... and then marching across the street, knocking on the door, and asking to be let in. You may be let in. You may not. That's beside the point. Your family - which still includes your dumbass brother - is across the street.

And seeing that it was his wife's family church as well, I can't blame the man for not picking up and moving out just because the pastor continually says/does stupid stuff. More than likely, the only way someone leaves a particular church is: 1.) get married to someone of another church, 2.) move out, or 3.) internal politics get personal.

The "cultural rules" are different. You don't have to agree with them, but you have to understand them in order to make a judgment on it. Context is everything.

Offline Lion

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2008, 08:38:45 am »
There is not a single voice that speaks for black america or individual black americans...not in the church...not on the radio...not in politics.

I totally agree.  My goodness, that is evident on the HEF.  So if one specific Black Church does not represent your perspective on critically important issues, on issues of bigotry and antisemitism, you find another one.  If those issues are important to you.

For example, Sinjection refers to the Harlem church of Rev James D. Manning.  How many of you would feel comfortable being a member of his congregation?  How many of you would choose his congregation when there were other Black Churches available?  Would you join that church and just hold "personal differences of opinion" with the Pastor?  If not, it is because you view his positions as so offensive that you would not wish to affiliate yourself with his church.  For those of you who would not join his church, it is because on those issues, you care.  

[Catch 22, I'm NOT referring to "you" in the general sense, not you personally ... this comment goes beyond your post].

The difference here is that Manning's attacks are directed against Obama and supporters. Remember where I said "internal politics get personal"? An attendee to Manning's pews probably would have a HUGE problem with being called homosexual. There's a difference between your crazy uncle accusing your neighbor down the street of being homosexual and your crazy uncle accusing you of being homosexual.

Offline bluezulu

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2008, 08:42:11 am »
When Rev. Wright made the God Damn America it was during the time when the politicians after every statement during 9/11 would say God bless America. I was a member of a big church that the pastor said something similar to Rev. Wright. She did not say God Damn America but she did state "God Bless America?" "That is the problem with America and why we are in this situation. America stands too much with it's hand out wanting to reap the blessings with out doing what it needs to do to be worthy of the blessings" She then went on to explain prayer and the act of getting on ones knees to pray. That humility of kneeling and bending is symbolic of showing worthiness of the blessings. In another way she stated you don't get your behind spanked and immediately ask for a blessing. You have to figure out why you got spanked, repent and then hope that you are deemed worthy of the blessings.

Look at America since 9/11. Do we look like we are being blessed right now?  Don't yall go there with your boy now. I may not be where I need to be spiritually right now, but I can go there with you on that bible.

Rev. Wright was right. We will be lucky if we can get someone in the white house who can take a message of reconciliation. Reconciling with the world who we are indebted to. If the economy keeps on like it is that debt will be literal and not just figuratively.

michaelintp

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2008, 08:42:32 am »
Lion, your points are interesting ... and you are right I've never thought of "house of worship" membership in the way you describe.

Still, from where I'm coming from, can you understand why I believe it prudent that American Jews have reservations regarding Obama?  If the shoe were on the other foot, I would think that plenty of Black Americans would have reservations about a political candidate.  I mean, I've heard such reservations expressed here in the past about politicians and their bedfellows.

Offline bluezulu

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2008, 08:49:58 am »
Lion, your points are interesting ... and you are right I've never thought of "house of worship" membership in the way you describe.

Still, from where I'm coming from, can you understand why I believe it prudent that American Jews have reservations regarding Obama?  If the shoe were on the other foot, I would think that plenty of Black Americans would have reservations about a political candidate.  I mean, I've heard such reservations expressed here in the past about politicians and their bedfellows.
-----------------------
Reservations. Lol. Man black folks who choose to get involved in politics choose the worst of all options. Every now and then we will get someone who generally has our best interests in mind. Most of the time we get politiotions who pander to us.

Offline sinjection

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2008, 08:53:53 am »
Back when I went to Catholic high school for a time (long story), I had a Religion teacher who was real big on liberation theology. He was pro-Sandenista, anti Regan among other things. He spoke about this sort of thing at length in class.

I had another teacher that was rabidly anti-abortion and endlessly spoke on THAT, so there was some balance.

Dude held Anti-American views, so I guess my political career is finished.

Not that it ever STARTED... but you get the point. I should have disavowed him, reported him to the archdiocese or the Pope or something.  ;)

Most of my classmates at the them could give a rat's ass about the Sandenista's at the time. Before and after Brother Wossisname's(I'm having a senior moment :o) speeches. But that's what he wanted to talk about. On the South Side of Chicago I doubt Hamas' agenda and its rightness or wrongness enters into Rev. Wright's thought much if at all. But its what their Pastor felt like taking about that day.

The Sandenista's were my teacher's bugaboo, not his students or mine for that matter.

Hamas may well be Rev. Wright's Bugaboo, but it hardly means that it was his congregations. Or Obama's  

    

In this nation's Declaration of Independence, thomas jefferson says, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." He went on to say that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men and these governments derive their "just powers from the consent of the governed."

Everyday, U.S. soldiers are awakening in Baghdad and risking life and limb for the Declaration of Independence and the nation it represents. These U.S. forces are as in the case of Vietnam, disproportionately represented by Black American soldiers. When jefferson penned that famous quote, about all men being created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..." he wasn't talking about black men and he wouldn't extend that quote to embrace those brave black soldiers fighting, dying and becoming maimed in this unjust war in Iraq. jefferson was one of the most vile white racists in history.

thomas jefferson would have called Nat Turner and his band of rebels terrorists. Every insult and attack that black Americans have had to endure in this still very racist nation has NOT and will NEVER turn us against the nation of our birth. Black Americans have like all Americans, the right to free speech. Rev Wright exercised this right, a right that he helped defend when he himself was a U.S. Marine. Obama's detractors, seeing that Clinton is still running behind Obama and will not catch him by the time the Convention rolls around will continue to nibble around the edges of this "race issue" trusting in the media, the right-wing talk shows and the GOP, as well as surrogates and supporters of the Clinton campaign to keep Obama embroiled in this controversy. Does every U.S. President who has sworn to defend the Constitution of the U.S. and the Declaration of Independence agree with jefferson when he says blacks are ugly and beastial and suggested that it would be better to deport all blacks to Africa because the combination of white hatred and disdain for blacks coupled with the resentment many blacks would harbor against whites for having enslaved and ill-used them would create a very volatile racial climate in this country?

William Jefferson Clinton hasn't been tainted by the words and attitudes of thomas jefferson. The U.S. continues to support the state of Israel even while knowing of Menachem Begin's and Israel's "terrorist past". Obama should not have to walk this "tightrope" some say he has to traverse. It isn't Obama's responsibility to solve America's centuries-long race problem, still there are some who believe that somehow it is. Obama attended a church whose pastor has said some controversial things. Some of us have attended churches whose pastor was a womanizer. The pastor's womanizing didn't make every male member of his congregation a womanizer, nor did it make them sympathetic to his womanizing activities. Jesse Jackson still enjoys strong support from many within the black community despite the hypocrisy he showed in fathering a child out of wedlock with a woman not his wife. Are all friends and followers of Jackson now to be scrutinized in the way Obama is being scrutinized because of his long association with Rev Wright?

This is in reality a NON ISSUE trumped up by the rightwing media and supported by many in the Clinton campaign. Obama has explained and expressed his views sufficiently and now should be allowed to return to the truly important issues facing the nation that his campaign needs to speak to.
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Offline bluezulu

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2008, 09:03:21 am »
Actually Sinjection, I think Obama does have to walk the tight rope. What would be diffrent from any other minority in this country. That is our burden and it builds character. Look he has to be the president of not just you and me but all of America so he has to assure all America that he will represent us all. That being said it should be fair across the board. He should not have to pass test that other candidates don't. You think that America would be more sophisticated then judging folks by their name or race.

Offline Lion

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2008, 09:18:06 am »
Lion, your points are interesting ... and you are right I've never thought of "house of worship" membership in the way you describe.

Still, from where I'm coming from, can you understand why I believe it prudent that American Jews have reservations regarding Obama?  If the shoe were on the other foot, I would think that plenty of Black Americans would have reservations about a political candidate.  I mean, I've heard such reservations expressed here in the past about politicians and their bedfellows.

Yes, I can understand. It's the only reason I feel comfortable arguing with you. There are other people I would not even TRY to have this discussion with. At the same time I'm asking you to consider it in these terms, I'm also trying to look at it from your shoes as well.

If you think think back to Obama's speech, it kind of ties in to what he said about everyone (black anger/white resentment) having reasons to feel the way they do... and that meaningful dialogue can only come about when we understand those reasons. In retrospect, I wish he had tried to frame it in cultural rather than racial terms, but I think the point remains the same.

You see Rev. Wright making statements and having associations (with Farrakhan, for example) that are not in the best interests of Jewish-Americans or Israel. You see birds of a feather flocking together and question how much a part of that particular flock (Wright/Farrakhan... as opposed to the church) Obama may be. I can't blame you. Especially with what Farrakhan has said and what Hamas has done... in particular to your friend's daughter. It's very personal and I can respect that.

I just think you do yourself an disservice with the guilt-by-association and assigning potential incendiary motives to Obama and his wife when Obama himself has never expressed anything but support for Israel and a desire to bridge the Jewish/Black divide... or passing that judgment to anyone else at the church. I just don't think you have enough information to judge anyone but maybe Rev. Wright himself. (Absent of context of the sermons, I don't know if we have enough information that, either.)

One thing about "guilt by association" and why it is a sore spot for Black Americans.

One of the first things I was told in ninth grade (the 9th grade was then separated from 10-12 grades) by the principal was "Don't you dare lie to me. Your brother lied to me all the time." Mind you, I had gone to the principal because I was being racially harassed. I was one of four black kids in the school at the time. And the first thing I hear had nothing to do with my complaint... It was that I was guilty, not because of anything I've done, but because of something my brother who wasn't even at the school allegedly done... (BTW, my brother didn't lie, but that has nothing to do with this discussion.)

"Guilt by association" is especially worse when it appears the same rule doesn't apply to everyone in the game. Do you see what I'm getting at?

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2008, 09:32:39 am »
All of this basically boils down to one thing: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH OBAMA'S PASTOR DOESN'T LIKE WHITE PEOPLE ENOUGH. This isn't about what he said about AIDS or what he said about America, it's about the fear that Obama...is black. Like all those other black people they don't like. And now they can't deny it. DAMMIT, OBAMA! YOU LIED TO ME!!!!!!

 ::)

Anybody who doesn't see this exactly for what it is, I can't even take seriously. Oh, boo-hoo, some preacher isn't too fond of white people. White folks would pass out if they could figure out that Rev. Wright isn't exactly the exception as much as he is the norm.

Offline sinjection

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2008, 09:35:31 am »
Because of our unique and singular history in this nation, it has been said of Black Americans that we are "the conscience of the nation." Years ago, the public television station operating in the market in which I live used to air services from Mosque Maryam in Chicago, the home mosque of the Hon. Min. Louis Farrakhan and national headquarters of the Nation of Islam. Before his services were aired however, there was a program sponsored by the Baha'i faith.

One evening as I tuned in to the station to watch Farrakhan, I caught the tail end of this Baha'i program and watched it. As I have a very close friend who is now a Minister in the Nation, I also have a very dear friend who was in a period of religious exploration. At that time, he happened to be into the Baha'i faith. As the show was nearing its end, the multi-racial panel sitting in a very relaxed and peaceful environment came to the conclusion that the world is watching for a reconcilliation between America's black and white citizens and that this reconcilliation would be the inspiration to people throughout the world to do the same. I asked myself, "Why?" Why is it seemingly incumbent upon black Americans to lead the nation and the world to peace?

Obama was running an excellent and noble campaign. He was above dirty politics. When Joe Biden called him a "clean" black candidate, Obama simply shrugged it off and didn't make Biden squirm. It was this and other attributes Obama has shown while on the campaign trail that has attracted so many white voter's support. Obama was an agent for positive change in the state of race relations in this nation without having to say he was that. His opponents, Clinton and the GOP worried about Obama's ability to appeal to the minds and concerns of the white voter and to link those concerns to those of Americans of all races, convincing ALL of us regardless of race, that working together as Americans, we could overcome the hard times that threaten us. Clinton NEEDED Obama to be a BLACK candidate, not simply a candidate who HAPPENS  to be black. In this way, she could begin to polarize the Democratic electorate and show them that she - being white - is the more electable candidate. Gov Rendell has already said it. Many whites aren't ready to vote for a black candidate. Lynn Swann, former Pittsburgh Steeler and Hall of Famer, beloved by many in PA was still a black man running for Gov against Rendell. Rendell credits racial politics as a big part of the reasons for his victory.

I disagree that racial reconcilliation in the U.S. is the burden of the black American. We've had brilliant leaders who have taken up that burden, from Frederick Douglass, George Washington Carver, Booker T. Washington, to Medgar Evers and Dr. Martin L. King, Jr. The latter two champions were relieved of their "burden" compliments of a bullet from a white assassin's rifle. Obama is already a man of fine character, as is his lovely wife Michelle. He is prepared to be the President not only of Black America, but of all America. There are problems confronting this nation that transcend race. So respectfully I say this: Obama doesn't need to waste his time entertaining the rush limbaugh crowd with his high-wire tightrope act when there are more important things that need his attention.
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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2008, 09:40:21 am »
White folks have had over 500 years to even BEGIN racial healing in the United States. If they don't give a damn, I don't see why I should.

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2008, 09:41:29 am »
All of this basically boils down to one thing: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH OBAMA'S PASTOR DOESN'T LIKE WHITE PEOPLE ENOUGH. This isn't about what he said about AIDS or what he said about America, it's about the fear that Obama...is black. Like all those other black people they don't like. And now they can't deny it. DAMMIT, OBAMA! YOU LIED TO ME!!!!!!

 ::)

Anybody who doesn't see this exactly for what it is, I can't even take seriously. Oh, boo-hoo, some preacher isn't too fond of white people. White folks would pass out if they could figure out that Rev. Wright isn't exactly the exception as much as he is the norm.


That's just it. I think they do suspect he is the norm.  And he's just the one who says it out loud. And Obama's attendance means...he's black!  He hangs out and listens to black people.  And there's the heart of the betrayal.  He's not that "different" as whites like to call who they see as "exceptional" negroes, he's one of them.