Author Topic: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!  (Read 88822 times)

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2008, 10:07:21 am »
Since much of the loudest screams of betrayal are coming from Neo-cons that weren't ever going to vote for Obama ANYWAY, I'm maintaining this is a dodge.

I'm speaking of the punditry here and not you, Mike. 

Obama has been an exeplemary candidate who has run on the issues. He is opposed to our continued Iraq conflict just as the majority of the American people are.

Instead of speaking on exactly why we should continue with the ruinous foriegn and economic policies of the current admistration, the punditry now gets to be offended that "Barack hangs around Black folks and doesn't correct them when they say stuff in private that White Folks don't like!" instead.

So now they have a justifiction for what they were going to do all along. NOT vote for Obama.

Its completely irrelevent.

The only thing of interest here is the bizzare doublethink involved in this: "Why didn't Obama throw his Pastor under the bus to earn my respect? Not that I'd of voted for him if he had done so, but he shoulda done it, he shoulda!!!"   

WHY SHOULD HE HAVE? IT WOULD NOT HAVE GAINED HIM ANYTHING!

It says something for some Whites' need to see Black self-abasement.

     

« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 10:18:04 am by Vic Vega »

Offline sinjection

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2008, 10:16:07 am »
Still, from where I'm coming from, can you understand why I believe it prudent that American Jews have reservations regarding Obama?  If the shoe were on the other foot, I would think that plenty of Black Americans would have reservations about a political candidate.  I mean, I've heard such reservations expressed here in the past about politicians and their bedfellows.

I am one who can see, understand and appreciate any reservations some American Jews might have regarding Obama and his relationship with Rev Wright. Who can forget one of Jesse Jackson's lowest moments when he remarked that he was "going to hymietown to see the hymies"? Jesse Jackson was a critic of Israel's arm sales to the then white-controlled apartheid nation of South Africa. No racial or ethnic group in this nation can claim to have clean hands where unsavory attitudes harbored against people who are different are expressed in word and deed.

Still, it was Jesse Jackson who was one of the "black leaders" who met with George Wallace and shook his hand when Wallace took the opportunity to apologize to and attempt to make amends with the black American community who was harmed by his words and deeds. When American nazis planned a march through Skokie, IL in 1977 (I believe), the suggestion that Jesse Jackson would organize a counter-protest gave the nazis cause to pause. The Minister Farrakhan has been making peaceful overtures to the Jewish American community for years beginning well before his historic Million Man March. Farrakhan was criticized in some circles, even among members of the Nation, for meeting in discussions with Jewish leaders. When in 1993, Farrakhan - a highly accomplished violinist - performed with an orchestra conducted by Felix Mendelssohn, a Jewish composer, black people, white people, Jewish people and members of his own Nation Of Islam were asking themselves, "What's going on?"

Farrakhan is not a person who hates anyone's humanity. That's what was going on. Rev Wright is the same. Wright doesn't hate the humanity of those different from himself. However, when they speak out - sometimes in heated anger - about those things black Americans have had to suffer at the hands of their fellow Americans who happen to be white, some Jewish, it's easy to ascribe to them a hateful label that does not fit the person. Race in America is a complex issue. It's been half a millennia in the making. It's not to be easily solved as often, it isn't easily understood.
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michaelintp

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2008, 10:43:14 am »
OK guys.  Just had to get this off my chest.

I'm off to observe the Purim Holiday with my family.  Have a great weekend.

Offline Lion

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2008, 11:10:36 am »
Hey man. You have a good holiday.

michaelintp

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2008, 06:19:34 pm »
Just back for a few minutes.  Just want to say thanks for the input on this.  When I do have time to come here and share thoughts with you all, more often than not I learn something.  This whole cultural notion of absolute loyalty to a church and pastor is something I would have never imagined ... it is so outside of my experience.  Yet it does seem to explain the "communication breakdown" between those who understand why Obama could strongly disagree with his pastor yet remain a member of the church, and those who assume he must have agreed or not cared enough about the issues to find another church.  I don't believe this necessarily has anything to do with racism.  Perhaps more a matter of cultural misunderstanding.

What is so strange about this is that (if one were inclined to conspiracy theories) one would almost believe that Pastor Write were a plant for the extreme right, intentionally sabotaging Obama's future prospects.  I'm not inclined to conspiracy theories, however.

I do wish this new revelation had never happened (both the revelation and the underlying event).  I'm not one of those partisan hacks who rubs his hands together in glee every time the opposing candidate is nailed.  I'll be the first to admit there are plenty of folks like that ... on all sides of the political spectrum. 

I personally find this whole business very upsetting.  I just don't know what to think.  Obama has made some public statements condemning Hamas, for example, and supporting not negotiating with Hamas.  Some of his advisers seem to take a different view.  I just don't know.  On a topic as important as this is to me, this is a very disturbing place to be. 

Offline DamonO

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2008, 09:42:45 pm »
Just back for a few minutes.  Just want to say thanks for the input on this.  When I do have time to come here and share thoughts with you all, more often than not I learn something.  This whole cultural notion of absolute loyalty to a church and pastor is something I would have never imagined ... it is so outside of my experience.  Yet it does seem to explain the "communication breakdown" between those who understand why Obama could strongly disagree with his pastor yet remain a member of the church, and those who assume he must have agreed or not cared enough about the issues to find another church.  I don't believe this necessarily has anything to do with racism.  Perhaps more a matter of cultural misunderstanding.

What is so strange about this is that (if one were inclined to conspiracy theories) one would almost believe that Pastor Write were a plant for the extreme right, intentionally sabotaging Obama's future prospects.  I'm not inclined to conspiracy theories, however.

I do wish this new revelation had never happened (both the revelation and the underlying event).  I'm not one of those partisan hacks who rubs his hands together in glee every time the opposing candidate is nailed.  I'll be the first to admit there are plenty of folks like that ... on all sides of the political spectrum. 

I personally find this whole business very upsetting.  I just don't know what to think.  Obama has made some public statements condemning Hamas, for example, and supporting not negotiating with Hamas.  Some of his advisers seem to take a different view.  I just don't know.  On a topic as important as this is to me, this is a very disturbing place to be. 

When Bush decided to go to war in Iraq, the Pope spoke out against it.  The Pope is considered to be the highest official in the Catholic Church.  So in your opinion, should every member of the Catholic Church who supported the invasion have left the Church?

The Catholic Church opposes abortion.  Yet there are practicing Catholics who are pro-choice.  Should they leave too?

Some people that read the Bible don't agree with every single thing it says.  Should they stop reading?

If I changed churches everytime the church's Pastor said something I didn't agree with, by now I would've attended half the churches in the city.

If your fake outrage hard-on lasts more than four hours, see a doctor.

Offline Tanksleyd

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Re: The 50 Year Israeli War
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2008, 02:33:48 am »
No, no Black I know supports the endless (and claimed successful) Israeli war on terrorists. Of course their opinion doesn't matter, we'll be in this Israeli war for another 50 years.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

If America knew how to deal with the ghetto (Or dealt with the ghetto first) America would have a better idea how to deal Baghdad.


An interesting article from yesterday's Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/21/AR2008032102633.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Offline Redjack

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2008, 09:09:27 am »
Israel supported Hamas in order to take the piss out of the PLO and now likes to whine that the entity they helped create (certainly to make viable) does precisely what it always said it would do. Also, in addition to its dubious approach to Israel (violence isn't going to work), Hamas runs food distribution programs and provides other social assistance to its constituency that have nothing to do with blowing stuff up. Like it or not, there is a legitimate argument to be made that the entire creation of Israel and the means by which the land it occupies was seized  and is held was illegal and tantamount to the same sort of war crimes that led to the desire to create the state in the first place.

While this is often considered an impolitic argument to make, black people in the US are inured against the normal backlash for making it because of our own status here. Any discussion along these lines will end in favor of black people until the inequalities of our status here are solved.

One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter and opinions about Israel, pro or con, are literally meaningless when deciding on a presidential candidate. This is election is about US. Israel is just one more nation in the world. When they do things that serve our interests, we should support them, when they don't, we should act accordingly there as well.

That should be the rule for every American ally. If they don't act like allies, then they aren't. Simple.


Soon you will come to know. When the bullet hits the bone.

Offline Tanksleyd

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2008, 11:12:59 pm »
Could it be....personal?

Tsk, tsk.

(This by the way is addressed to EVERYONE)

Offline Tanksleyd

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2008, 12:00:03 am »
Sometimes we outsmart ourselves.

I sometimes have posts where I feel a need for a dissertation, but then I create a bigger target and get confused my own self trying to support an infinitely of points...That's why I just see it as In America EVERYONE is racist.

It's easy to articulate, explain and defend.

No Hamas ain't Racial...They ain't White either.

I never got the Jew thing. I mean one minute you read that some Jews got killed for Civil Rights in Mississippi and then in the next breath someone says the Jews hate Blacks. Then I read that Hitler didn't like them but Hitler looks like a...Jew!

I never got the Jew thing, to me they were just White. Yeah you can point out Sammy Davis Junior and I'll point out Michael Jackson. And yes I know about Ethiopia...But really I never had a religion thing, I got a White thing.

Offline karaszero

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2008, 02:38:50 am »
I agree with redjack, to put all of this down as just "cultural differences" is a cop out. Right and wrong are not abstract concepts they apply equally to everything, everyone. all it takes is to step out of each individuals comfort zone in search of a higher truth. The world at large refuses to admit that life began in Africa, much less the day to day commonalities we share (love, pain, joy death).

michaelintp

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2008, 09:44:23 am »
When Bush decided to go to war in Iraq, the Pope spoke out against it.  The Pope is considered to be the highest official in the Catholic Church.  So in your opinion, should every member of the Catholic Church who supported the invasion have left the Church?

The Catholic Church opposes abortion.  Yet there are practicing Catholics who are pro-choice.  Should they leave too?

Some people that read the Bible don't agree with every single thing it says.  Should they stop reading?

If I changed churches everytime the church's Pastor said something I didn't agree with, by now I would've attended half the churches in the city.

If your fake outrage hard-on lasts more than four hours, see a doctor.

DamonO, I love that Viagra reference!  But no, my outrage over the Hamas endorsement is not fake.  See the first post of this thread to learn why.

All the examples you cite are cases were those who are truly offended spoke out at the time.  Catholics who disagreed with the Pope regarding Iraq openly expressed their disagreement at the time. Catholics who favor abortion speak out against the Church position. Christians who disagree with a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible openly say so, and reinterpret the text.  All your examples involve commitment to an entire religion.  Not just one local church.  In the case of Barak Obama, he did not speak out against the positions of the Pastor at the time the Pastor was saying and doing what he was doing.  Indeed, Obama did just the opposite.  Only now, when there is negative pubic reaction, does Obama respond.  Whether you agree or disagree that Obama should have spoken out earlier, his late condemnation does raise a question as to his credibility.  That is just a fact ... like it or not.  One might answer that question with an answer - that you "don't speak out against family."  (The "cultural" thing).  But I don't think one can deny that the question now exists. 

As to whether Obama should have condemned the Hamas endorsement, at the time it was made or now, some of you might believe that such an endorsement was fine, and Obama should not have renounced it then or now.  Others might believe that it is just not that important, that other priorities are more important.  It's a free country.  But such sentiments don't calm concerns that some Jewish Americans may now have.  That too is just a fact. 

All this has nothing to do with the race of the candidate.  The same concerns would exist if the candidate were white and he belonged to a church that had praised the Hamas perspective as a "fresh view" and after that the candidate continued to give high praise to the Pastor.

michaelintp

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2008, 09:44:59 am »
Could it be....personal?

Tsk, tsk.

(This by the way is addressed to EVERYONE)

You are 100% correct.  Thanks.  No need to get sidetracked here.

Offline Redjack

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2008, 11:25:58 am »
here's the thing:

while the jewish lobby exerts a good deal of influence via monies spent, the physical numbers of Jews in America are negligible. If 100% of jews opted not to vote for Obama (which won't happen), it wouldn't matter. However, if 100% of blacks chose to vote or not to vote for him, he would feel it.


Soon you will come to know. When the bullet hits the bone.

Offline DamonO

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2008, 12:52:44 pm »
When Bush decided to go to war in Iraq, the Pope spoke out against it.  The Pope is considered to be the highest official in the Catholic Church.  So in your opinion, should every member of the Catholic Church who supported the invasion have left the Church?

The Catholic Church opposes abortion.  Yet there are practicing Catholics who are pro-choice.  Should they leave too?

Some people that read the Bible don't agree with every single thing it says.  Should they stop reading?

If I changed churches everytime the church's Pastor said something I didn't agree with, by now I would've attended half the churches in the city.

If your fake outrage hard-on lasts more than four hours, see a doctor.

DamonO, I love that Viagra reference!  But no, my outrage over the Hamas endorsement is not fake.  See the first post of this thread to learn why.

All the examples you cite are cases were those who are truly offended spoke out at the time.  Catholics who disagreed with the Pope regarding Iraq openly expressed their disagreement at the time. Catholics who favor abortion speak out against the Church position. Christians who disagree with a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible openly say so, and reinterpret the text.  All your examples involve commitment to an entire religion.  Not just one local church.  In the case of Barak Obama, he did not speak out against the positions of the Pastor at the time the Pastor was saying and doing what he was doing.  Indeed, Obama did just the opposite.  Only now, when there is negative pubic reaction, does Obama respond.  Whether you agree or disagree that Obama should have spoken out earlier, his late condemnation does raise a question as to his credibility.  That is just a fact ... like it or not.  One might answer that question with an answer - that you "don't speak out against family."  (The "cultural" thing).  But I don't think one can deny that the question now exists. 

As to whether Obama should have condemned the Hamas endorsement, at the time it was made or now, some of you might believe that such an endorsement was fine, and Obama should not have renounced it then or now.  Others might believe that it is just not that important, that other priorities are more important.  It's a free country.  But such sentiments don't calm concerns that some Jewish Americans may now have.  That too is just a fact. 

All this has nothing to do with the race of the candidate.  The same concerns would exist if the candidate were white and he belonged to a church that had praised the Hamas perspective as a "fresh view" and after that the candidate continued to give high praise to the Pastor.

Michael, everything you have said could apply equally to John McCain.  It wasn't until there was a relatively small media spotlight on Hagee's comments that McCain finally made a weak comment that just because he accepted Hagee's endorsement didn't mean he agreed with everything Hagee said.  Keep in mind that McCain has called Hagee one of his "spiritual advisors."

McCain himself in 2000 denounced Jerry Falwell as an agent of intolerance, and then in 2007, when he wanted Falwell's support, went on "Meet the Press" and said that he no longer believed that and accepted Falwell's invitation to speak at Liberty University, where Falwell is the chancellor.   Falwell has said numerous incendiary remarks, including saying he supported apartheid in South Africa back in the 1980s, and by his own admission was a pro-segregationist right up through the 1970s.  He also denounced the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. and the civil right movement.  In addition, he blamed what happened on 9/11 on feminists and gays, among others.

I think what you are exhibiting is selective outrage and a double standard.  You're criticizing Obama and giving McCain a pass and using the excuse that because Obama is an actual member of the Church you find offensive, that somehow that is a greater "offense."  As I said earlier, if Obama had sought out the endorsement of Louis Farrakhan and stood on a stage with him while accepting it, you wouldn't be here saying "well, that's okay because he wasn't a member of Farrakhan's mosque."

I challenge you to find one single comment ever made by Obama, and more importantly, find evidence in his voting record that suggests Obama is anti-Israel, anti-Semitic, or hates his country.  You won't find it.

And you know what?  I'll bet you if someone recorded everything someone close to you said, whether it was a parent, a close relative, or a friend or associate, that they'd find something that person said that many would find offensive.  I'll bet one of them has even said it in your presence before, and that you didn't always correct them or told them that you disagreed with them.  If you're really honest with yourself, you know that that's true.

And as for the Catholic Church example, I don't recall seeing or hearing any Catholics that disagreed with the church's position on those issues speaking out against them.
Hell, Rudy Giuliani is a pro-choice practicing Catholic, and he's never criticized the Church for its position or stopped practicing Catholicism simply because he disagrees with what the head of the church has to say.

The simple truth is, people that don't care for Obama are going to find something, ANYTHING, to criticize him on.  Some nut on Fox News criticized Obama's speech because "he read it off a teleprompter."  He's been criticized for not wearing a flag lapel pin, as if somehow that has anything to do with how patriotic a person is.  My take is if you want to be offended by his pastor, his church, his bare lapel, or whatever, go right ahead -- because if its not those things, you'll find something else.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2008, 12:55:43 pm by DamonO »