Mike you have thus far only been willing to hold ONE candidates' feet to the fire, and that is the problem. You have never to my knowledge been as critical of the behavior of Republicans or their supporters, much less the behavior of Israel. Every point that has been made about Israel and their actions have been defended or rationalized by you, and quite frankly some of it's actions are not defendable so these discussions never go anywhere productive. I again would like to see parity in these debates and not a holier-than -thou view of Israels actions/behavior while in the same instant be so certain of the motivations behind an opposing view of Israel, everyone who criticizes Israel is not Anti-Semitic
Israel sold arms to and supported the white racist apartheid government of South Africa. Israel likely saw a parallel between her battle with the PLO and the white racist apartheid South African government's struggle to resist surrendering to the black majority in that country. How many Jewish people believed that Israel was justified in making those arms sales to the apartheid, white racist government of South Africa? Nelson Mandela recognized and saluted the PLO as comrades. How many Jewish people had the audacity to find fault with Mandela for doing so? Just recently - within a few days in fact - I heard a report saying that either John McCain or dick cheney remarked that the Palestinian people deserve their own homeland. Will their feet be held to the fire as a result?
OK, hurumph ... here goes ...
Israel has supported the creation of a Palestinian state. That was the whole idea of the Oslo Accords and the 2000 Camp David Summit: The creation of the Palestinian Authority that would transition to a Palestinian Government. Prime Minister Barak and President Clinton actively pursued the matter. The Israelis made major concessions in the pursuit of peace. I remember this distinctly, as we were all very optimistic at the time. I even had an Israeli and Palestinian flag on a little stand on my desk at work. Billions of dollars were transferred to the P.A. (unfortunately a large amount of these funds found their way to the Swiss bank accounts of the Palestinian leadership). Arafat (in a surprise to everyone) backed out when the moment of decision arrived. He could just not bring himself to make peace. Even after the peace process collapsed, Israel has tried to act unilaterally. Most notably Israel forcibly expelled the Jewish residents of Gush Katif (a large community that many of the displaced persons had spent a lifetime building) and unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip. Some argued that the Israeli withdrawal would “lessen the provocation” and give peace a chance. Liberal Jewish groups donated funds to make sure that the large Gush Katif community, the agricultural infrastructure, the hot houses etc, would be ready for the Palestinians to take over and use to improve their lives. Instead, immediately after the Israeli withdrawal, Hamas supporters entered the area and destroyed everything. Hamas has proceeded to shower rockets into Israeli cities. I’m sure you are aware of the Hamas election victories in the last Palestinian general election.
The advocacy of a “Palestinian State” by Hamas is a joke (but not a funny joke). The Hamas vision of a Palestinian state is one stretching from the West Bank of the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. Hamas advocates the destruction of the whole of Israel and the extermination, expulsion and/or subjugation of the Jewish population.
Today it would be insane for Israel to agree to the creation of a Hamas terrorist state in the West Bank and Gaza. Given the Palestinian Authority’s rejection of the peace process and rejected opportunities for a state over and over again, its own support of terrorist activities, and the widespread dissemination antisemitic hate propaganda in the Palestinian Media (including in children’s programming), the motives of the old PLO leadership are also highly suspect. However, perhaps over time something can be worked out. My guess, however, is that it won’t be anytime soon.
The Camp David Summit in 2000 was not the first time the Arabs rejected a Palestinian state. Jews had lived in Palestine for generations. The Zionist settlers in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries purchased land from the Turkish landowners. The original Palestinian Mandate administered by Britain to create a homeland for the Jewish People included the land both to the east and west of the Jordan River. Britain unilaterally carved out the eastern part of the Mandate and presented to an Arabian royal family after WWI as a consolation prize for not receiving Arabia (thus the state of Jordan was born, while the Saud’s got Arabia). While the rest of Palestine was under British administration, Jews were massacred in Arab riots in the late 1920s and 1930s and (with the cooperation of the British) expelled from traditional Jewish areas, such as Hebron. During WWII, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was an ally of Hitler. Much of the propaganda disseminated at that time is still repeated in Palestinian circles today.
After the War, the British (who saw a strategic interest in allying themselves with the Arabs) forcibly kept Jewish refugees from immigrating to Israel – with many, including my mother in law, placed in detention camps in Cypress. In 1947 the Palestinian Partition Plan would have created a Palestinian state alongside Israel. The British abruptly withdrew and provided material support for the Arabs. An Arab-Jewish civil war ensued. When in 1948 the UN ratified the creation of Israel, the Arab states rejected partition (a "two state solution") and declared war against the infant state. They promised the Arab residents that the war would be over in a few days and urged the locals to get out of the way (or join the fight); they were primarily responsible for the creation of “Palestinian Refugees.” Israeli Defense Forces, itself primarily comprised of refugees, miraculously prevailed against the invading Arab armies. After 1948, hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees were forced to flee Arab countries, and were willingly absorbed by Israel. Had the surrounding Arab nations (particularly Egypt) had the same attitude toward their Palestinian "brothers" there would have been no Palestinian refugee crisis. Instead the Arab states used the Palestinians as pawns, keeping them in refugee camps (notably in Gaza), to keep the hatred of Israel alive.
After 1948 Gaza was held by Egypt, and the West Bank and East Jerusalem (including the Western Wall) were in Jordanian hands. Jordan had no interest in creating a Palestinian state, viewing the residents of the West Bank as Jordanian. In the early 1960s, the PLO was founded, when the West Bank was still part of Jordan. The goal of the PLO then, and many believe now, was not the creation of a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza. The purpose was the destruction of the state of Israel.
Today the majority of the population of Jordan is in fact Palestinian. In terms of its demographics, it is a Palestinian state.
When the Arab armies massed on the borders of Israel in 1967, with Nasser declaring he would “drive the Jews into the sea” Israel defended herself in what is now known as the Six Day War. Israel captured the West Bank, Gaza and the Sinai – and Jerusalem was reunified. This was not some war of colonial occupation. It was a war of total self-defense. In 1973, on Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the Jewish calendar, Israel was again attacked. That time the state was almost destroyed. The only thing that prevented Israel’s destruction was that the Egyptian army stopped in its tracks as it had penetrated way further than anticipated and didn’t receive timely central orders as to what to do next. In any event, Israel did not do what many other countries have done when attacked by an enemy. Israel did not expel the hostile enemy population (as took place in parts of Europe after WWII). Instead Israel gave administrative rights over the holiest of Jewish sites, the Temple Mount, to Muslim Administrators. This is in stark contrast to the behavior of the Jordanians when they captured East Jerusalem in 1948: the destruction of Jewish consecrated sites and synagogues.
Jews began to settle - mostly in areas that had once been traditional Jewish areas (such as Hebron or near Hebron, for example) near holy Jewish sites, and in suburbs of Jerusalem (in the West Bank). I was in Hebron and in these suburbs of Jerusalem a couple of weeks ago. It is noteworthy that in the small Jewish area of Hebron, Arabs live in safety. Jews, however, cannot live and could not live safely, in the rest of Hebron, administered by the P.A. Hebron is the second most holy city (after Jerusalem) to the Jews, as it is where the Patriachs are buried. Even at the site of the Cave of the Patriarchs, the Jews are relegated to a relatively small area of the structure that is forbidden to be renovated (for fear of offending the Arabs). However, the Arabs are free to renovate their much larger area in the structure, which I am told is beautiful (it is a mosque). The huge structure was originally built by King Herod.
You also raise South Africa. The Israeli arms trade with Apartheid South Africa is a flashback to the 1980s. It is troubling, I agree. However, Israel did reverse course in its relationship with that regime. Other than as a mere pretense, this does not justify an
endorsement of Hamas today, the topic we’ve been discussing (or at least were discussing before I went to work this morning, haha).
Israel was not the only nation to trade with South Africa. According to a State Department report issued in March of 1987, South Africa was receiving arms from several European countries, including companies from Britain, France, Switzerland and West Germany. However, it is true that over time Western European nations and manufacturers did drop out of the trade. On March 18, 1987 the Inner Cabinet of the Israeli government denounced the Apartheid policy of South Africa and limited Israel's security ties with Pretoria. On September 16, 1987 the Israeli Cabinet approved a series of measures designed to limit trade, sports and cultural ties with South Africa.
Today Israel maintains full diplomatic relations and cordial business contacts with South Africa.
If anyone is interested in this as a matter of historical interest, they can look at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-South_Africa_relationsIt is worth noting that during the time frame of the 1970s and 1980s Israel was the victim of an insidious Arab Boycott, urged by the Arab states that sought, but failed, to destroy it. Given the clout of the oil-rich Arab regimes, despite Israel’s efforts to provide foreign assistance to African countries, many African nations joined that boycott. In recent years the boycott has weakened, but in the 1970s and 1980s it was very actively pursued. Some general information is provided in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_and_political_boycotts_of_IsraelRegarding Israel’s historical relationship with South Africa, it is interesting that it was the opposition to British Colonialism (not “racism”) that forged the historical connection between Israel and South Africa. It is also worth noting that, although Jews accounted for only 2.5% of South Africa's white population and 0.3% of South Africa's total population, many Jews played notable roles in the anti-apartheid movement. For example, when 156 political leaders arrested on December 5, 1956, more than half of the whites arrested were Jewish. They were charged with high treason resulting in the Treason Trial which lasted from 1956-1960. And, all of the whites initially charged in the 1963 Rivonia Trial were Jewish. For more information on this, you can read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_South_AfricaI question whether anyone has the time to read what I've written (Arghhhh!), and I sure don't have much more time to pursue this. The Hudlin Forum had these discussions ad nauseum before. We could go round and round forever in a point-counterpoint fashion, and at the end of the day we will have burned hours of time.
My only real purpose in laying all this out now is to express to you the perspective of a large segment of the American Jewish Community. To help give you further understanding of why there may be some political fallout from the sympathetic publication of the Hamas stance in the “Pastor’s Corner” of the church bulletin.
