Author Topic: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!  (Read 88815 times)

michaelintp

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #60 on: March 24, 2008, 10:49:06 pm »
And that's my point about Obama, Mike.  You may not agree with his policies, but you have to acknowledge the quality of the man.  And that's what matters most to me.

Yes.  As you know, Barak Obama struck me the same way when I first heard him speak.  While, I've learned, I don't agree with all of his policies (and am unsure of some), he comes across as very compelling and sincere.  His recent speech blew me away. You raise a key point that I did not mention in my little "analysis" ... that many people (yes at times including myself) ultimately vote with their gut.

That's part of the reason why, when I said I wished some of this stuff [and particularly the Hamas thing] had not come up, and had not happened, I meant it ... because to a very real degree my "gut" tells me one thing about the man ... and my "mind" tells me something else ... or at least raises reasonable doubts ... regarding issues that could affect people who are incredibly important to me ...  which leaves me in a very discomfited state.  I just hope and pray that if Barak Obama does become our next President, that your (and to some extent my) gut reaction is correct.  I sure hope its not wrong.   :-\

Offline sinjection

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2008, 04:45:56 am »
Mike you have thus far only been willing to hold ONE candidates' feet to the fire, and that is the problem. You have never to my knowledge been as critical of the behavior of Republicans or their supporters, much less the behavior of Israel. Every point that has been made about Israel and their actions have been defended or rationalized by you, and quite frankly some of it's actions are not defendable so these discussions never go anywhere productive. I again would like to see parity in these debates and not a holier-than -thou view of Israels actions/behavior while in the same instant be so certain of the motivations behind an opposing view of Israel, everyone who criticizes Israel is not Anti-Semitic

Israel sold arms to and supported the white racist apartheid government of South Africa. Israel likely saw a parallel between her battle with the PLO and the white racist apartheid South African government's struggle to resist surrendering to the black majority in that country. How many Jewish people believed that Israel was justified in making those arms sales to the apartheid, white racist government of South Africa? Nelson Mandela recognized and saluted the PLO as comrades. How many Jewish people had the audacity to find fault with Mandela for doing so? Just recently - within a few days in fact - I heard a report saying that either John McCain or dick cheney remarked that the Palestinian people deserve their own homeland. Will their feet be held to the fire as a result?
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Offline karaszero

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2008, 09:26:58 am »
I use specific instances that do not give an advantage to ANY one group of people, my intention is to bring up a situation where you would have no choice but to recognize either right or wrong behavior/actions within the context of the situation. I am not anti-semitic at all ...that was cienzanos' hangup my problem is that the Jews occupy an elevated position in this world through what amounts to tremendous media coverage, historical facts printed in American school books, the pandering of politicians to the jewish lobby, etc. I grew up in this countrys' private school system having more empathy towards jewish suffering to that of my own ancestors! and that was by design. It is a surreal fact that black children who attend public/private schools in this country learn MORE about the Holocaust than they do the Middle Passage. I had to SEARCH for the history of my ancestors on my own, the "Truth" was purposely erased or blurred or deleted. I have said it once so I'll say it again; the Holocaust was a despicable act of inhumanity against the Jews I don't condone it in any way, 6 million lives wiped off the face of the planet. 100 million of my ancestors died in the middle passage.They could not hide in plain sight as the jews could, they couldn't change their last names, they couldn't be anything above cattle to the lowest white man in this country 

Offline Lion

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2008, 09:31:15 am »
Let's not turn this into a "which of us had it the worst" type thing. It's counterproductive.

Offline karaszero

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2008, 09:38:10 am »
I am not trying to do that lion, so apologies to whomever is offended, However, I have always said that NOONE has a lock on suffering and any conversation dealing with this topic has always leaned more to the pains suffered in the holocaust than any other so I think a Native American would have just as valid a point as a Black, or a Jew, or a Japanese person whose ancestors were kidnapped by north korea. Everybody has suffered at one time or another

Offline Redjack

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #65 on: March 25, 2008, 10:27:25 am »
Well, it's germane.

The issues American Jews have with Israel, anti semitism, their treatment in the holocaust, has almost nothing to do with life in the US. Yes, there have been attacks on jews (hate crimes). Yes, they have been discriminated against in terms of not being allowed to stay in certain places, attend certain schools, clubs etc. But there was no governmental policy specifically in place to keep them down. There were no centuries of torture and degradations for them here. The VP of the Confederacy was jewish and, while many northern jews participated in the Civil Rights struggle, the majority of southern jews did not. Just like the other white folks down there. Jewish Americans, as a group, are no more and no less allied with blacks than the larger white populace and never have been.

Nothing that has happened to the American jewish population IN AMERICA stacks up against what has happened to blacks IN AMERICA. So, when talking about the long suffering of people elsewhere and what we do or don't owe them as decent human beings, I think it's legitimate for American blacks to say, "get in line behind us." Just as the native Americans can say the same to all of us.

The implication, and it's a fairly constant and strong one, that the single worst thing ever to happen to a group of humans happened to jews, gypsies, slavs, poles, homosexuals and the handicapped in in Nazi germany is not only massively insulting to our struggles here, it's numerically and temporally false.

Lots of groups have a holocaust. All are legit and none takes the front seat over the others.  But, when dealing with them, you have to deal with the actual torturers and the actual victims. America isn't responsible in any way for the Holocaust so we don't owe anything on that score. Take it up with Germany.


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Offline karaszero

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2008, 10:53:52 am »
Exactly.

Offline sinjection

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2008, 11:57:03 am »
America isn't responsible in any way for the Holocaust so we don't owe anything on that score. Take it up with Germany.


Essentially ignoring what was happening to the Jews in nazi germany.

Turning away Jews seeking to emigrate to the U.S. in an attempt to escape the holocaust.

I'd say that those things are as bad as our government supplying Sadaam Hussein with chemcal weapons which he used on his own Kurdish citizens while our government turned a blind eye to that crime against humanity.

If the story attached to this link is any indication, I'd say America does bear some responsibility for the Holocaust.

http://www.jewishexponent.com/article/12232/

And let's not forget that this nation made it possible for many nazi scientists who participated in nazi germany's rocket program to escape justice so that their expertise could be exploited for our own outer space aspirations.

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Offline Redjack

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #68 on: March 25, 2008, 01:08:33 pm »
America isn't responsible in any way for the Holocaust so we don't owe anything on that score. Take it up with Germany.

Essentially ignoring what was happening to the Jews in nazi germany.

False. If you look at both government docs and, more importantly, news of the time, America's position was simply that this was an internal European  (german) problem. Awful, sure. Unfair, absolutely, but also none of our business. We had our own problems around that time. Some of them even made the papers. There was no mention of camps, labor or death, and no reason to think of such a thing. No one in human history had ever turned murder into an assembly line activity so there's no way anyone could have thought of it without evidence. At that time, there was none.

Nations don't get to attack other nations for their treatment of their populace unless that treatment is on the scale of death camps or gas attacks or whatever. Even then we have to tread very lightly. We didn't invade South Africa either. And, more to the point, it would have been problematic to do too much criticism of Germany considering what the US was doing to us at the same time.

We weren't required to get involved. It's ugly but, especially at that time, if a nation wanted to expell a segment of it's own populace, that was their own business. No one knew about the death camps until well after the war was underway.  So no one can be blamed for not acting more quickly on that score. The war was fought to save the whole world, not just to liberate the camps.

And, btw, there's the little matter of us WINNING the war and LIBERATING those camps at the cost of a lot of a American lives. Thousands and thousands as I recall. Payment in full, I think, for any foot dragging before we got in.

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Turning away Jews seeking to emigrate to the U.S. in an attempt to escape the holocaust.

False again. That term and the Hebrew version, SHOAH, were not even in use until well after the war was over. More than a decade. Even after the attocities were discovered, no one, not even the survivors themselves, thoght of it the way we do now. Tht took time. It took distance. It took lots of reflection on the meaning of the horror. At the time the death camp survivors were considered to be no different than any other war refugees.  Some we took. Some we didn't.

The US is not required to take in refugees of any nationality or from any particular conflict or any refugees at all. We take who we want, when we want, for whatever reason we like at the time and we keep folks out according to those reasons as well. That's what a nation is: protected borders. The only thing that entitles someone to US citizenship is being born here or being born of American parents. Everything else is a decision made by us. Just as it is for every other nation in the world.

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I'd say that those things are as bad as our government supplying Sadaam Hussein with chemcal weapons which he used on his own Kurdish citizens while our government turned a blind eye to that crime against humanity.

No. The things you cited were passive. GIVING/SELLING WMD to Saddam is ACTIVE. Not even close to the same thing.

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And let's not forget that this nation made it possible for many nazi scientists who participated in nazi germany's rocket program to escape justice so that their expertise could be exploited for our own outer space aspirations.

Try "bomb delivery systems" and that also would be POST Holocaust. You can thank your lucky stars we got the pick of that litter. Stalin would have been a much bigger problem had we not snapped them up. As it was we nearly destroyed the planet on at least two occasions over squabbling with the Soviets.

We don't owe a thing.  That note is more than paid up.


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Offline sinjection

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #69 on: March 25, 2008, 07:00:41 pm »
False. If you look at both government docs and, more importantly, news of the time, America's position was simply that this was an internal European  (german) problem. Awful, sure. Unfair, absolutely, but also none of our business. We had our own problems around that time. Some of them even made the papers. There was no mention of camps, labor or death, and no reason to think of such a thing. No one in human history had ever turned murder into an assembly line activity so there's no way anyone could have thought of it without evidence. At that time, there was none.

When has the U.S. not had racial problems of her own? These racial problems did not prevent the U.S. from imposing economic sanctions on South Africa and insisting they adhere to the Sullivan Principles. We wasted no time invading Iraq to "liberate" Kuwait. We wasted no time inventing a reason to invade Iraq for a second time and for what? WMDs? There weren't any to be found. To liberate the Iraqi people? Why should Iraq's internal problems have been any concern of ours? We beat up on Grenada because we believed they had established a government that would become cozy with Cuba. We beat up on Panama to remove a strongman we'd supported, sort of like Sadaam Hussein. Nothing is ever the business of the U.S. unless we decide to make it our business. The U.S. government had some idea what was going on in nazi germany. If the anti-semite Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh knew about the nazi hatred for Jews, our government had to have known.

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We weren't required to get involved. It's ugly but, especially at that time, if a nation wanted to expell a segment of it's own populace, that was their own business. No one knew about the death camps until well after the war was underway.  So no one can be blamed for not acting more quickly on that score. The war was fought to save the whole world, not just to liberate the camps.

The U.S. didn't want to get into the war period. The bombing of Pearl Harbor changed that. And now, it's been said that Pearl Harbor was the Gulf of Tonkin incident of it's day. Or if you will, the destruction of one of our naval vessels that allowed the U.S. to wage the Spanish-American war. I compare Pearl Harbor to these events because many believe the Japanese "sneak attack" on Pearl Harbor was not as "sneaky" as has long been believed. According to some sources, the Japanese warned the U.S. government of the impending attack and that the warning was ignored. Why was it ignored? If the explosion of the USS Maine could have excited the American people to wage the Spanish-American War, surely a similar event in Pearl Harbor could have the same result. Today, the U.S. has referred to its past mistake of turning Jews away in their time of need to justify military actions taken in Iraq and Bosnia. The only places where the U.S. seems reticent or disinterested in stopping genocidal slaughter is in Africa. The U.S. acted in its own interests when they turned away the Jews. They didn't want to admit what they decided were "undesirables" at that time. The U.S. government turned a blind eye to Iraq's invasion of Iran and even provided logistical support in their war of aggression against Iran because at that time, Sadaam was our friend and Iran was not.

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And, btw, there's the little matter of us WINNING the war and LIBERATING those camps at the cost of a lot of a American lives. Thousands and thousands as I recall. Payment in full, I think, for any foot dragging before we got in.

As you've said, the war was fought not specifically to liberate the Jews, but to "save the whole world". No. The war was fought because our government decided that the threat of the Axis powers to our own nation was serious enough at that time that we had to get involved. Many whites will say that the Civil War is how they paid off the debt of slavery. What about the horrific crimes against black American humanity that occurred AFTER and as a direct result of the Civil War? These crimes gave rise to the types of sermons delivered by the Reverand Jeremiah Wright which have vexed Sen. Obama as of late.

It's not about debts being paid. It's about historical fact. The facts are these. The U.S. turned away Jews fleeing genocide. We ignored the "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses,...." when it came to offering save haven to those in desperate need of it. Military actions in Iraq and in Bosnia were taken with the holocaust in mind. It seems that the U.S. government isn't entirely convinced that it has paid it's holocaust debt in full.

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Try "bomb delivery systems" and that also would be POST Holocaust. You can thank your lucky stars we got the pick of that litter. Stalin would have been a much bigger problem had we not snapped them up.


The U.S. has never evinced a difficulty in engaging in necessary evils to advance itself. Manifest Destiny was a necessary evil. Slavery was a necessary evil. Rescuing nazi devils to advance our outer space aspirations and to build up our military capacity was a necessary evil. Necessary, yes. But still evil.

« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 07:38:29 pm by sinjection »
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Offline Redjack

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #70 on: March 25, 2008, 07:45:01 pm »
False. If you look at both government docs and, more importantly, news of the time, America's position was simply that this was an internal European  (german) problem. Awful, sure. Unfair, absolutely, but also none of our business. We had our own problems around that time. Some of them even made the papers. There was no mention of camps, labor or death, and no reason to think of such a thing. No one in human history had ever turned murder into an assembly line activity so there's no way anyone could have thought of it without evidence. At that time, there was none.

When has the U.S. not had racial problems of her own?


Please explain this. It seems like you're saying the problems of Europeans should have been more important than the ones we have/had here. that can't be right, can it?

 
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These racial problems did not prevent the U.S. from imposing economic sanctions on South Africa



Bwahahahahahaha! "Sanctions." Yeah. Boy. We really showed them. Just as if we gave them the Dresden treatment.


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and insisting they adhere to the Sullivan Principles.


Oh. Come ON! Meanwhile Israel is in bed with the Boers. Give me a break. They brought their own lube.

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We wasted no time invading Iraq to "liberate" Kuwait.

Money.

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We wasted no time inventing a reason to invade Iraq for a second time and for what?


"We?" i take no responsibility for that lying creep and his cronies in the white house.

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We beat up on Grenada because we believed they had established a government that would become cozy with Cuba. We beat up on the Phillipines to remove a strongman we'd supported, sort of like Sadaam Hussein. Nothing is ever the business of the U.S. unless we decide to make it our business. The U.S. government had some idea what was going on in nazi germany.

The US knew Germany was expelling undesirables. As I said, that was not perceived to be an American interest. It's sucky but they were not citizens of this country and we are under no obligation to consider them one way or the other.

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If the anti-semite Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh knew about the nazi hatred for Jews, our government had to have known.

Henry Ford was not a member of the government. You're using modern behavior to retroactively hold the US accountable for something there was no way we could have known about. The POINT is, the US was an isolationist nation at that time with MASSIVE internal problems of which race was only one. Contrary to you your unsupported assertion, while Lindbergh was certainly an anti-semite and very enamored of German efficiency and convinced they couldn't be beaten in a stand-up fight (which was true at the time he made his report) the fact is, the camps weren't built yet, no one as being murdered wholesale and, most important, none of those people were Americans. The name of this planet is not America. We don't owe ANYBODY anything except our own citizens and cannot be held guilty for actions in other nations that we failed to prevent (especially those actions about which we had no knowledge).

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The U.S. acted in its own interests when they turned away the Jews.

You have to stop with this. even the article you cited said tht the US turned away a stack of desperate peoples. Seperating the jews out as a unique group when they were clearly part of a larger trend is in opposition to the facts.

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As you've said, the war was fought not specifically to liberate the Jews, but to "save the whole world". No. The war was fought because our government decided that the threat of the Axis powers to our own nation was serious enough at that time that we had to get involved. Many whites will say that the Civil War is how they paid off the debt of slavery. What about the horrific crimes against humanity that occurred AFTER the Civil War?

Many whites are idiots. The civil war was about holding the union together. WW2 was about stopping the germans from taking over the world. Freeing the slaves and liberating the camps were incidental to the larger issues.

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It's not about debts being paid. It's about historical fact. The facts are these. The U.S. turned away Jews fleeing genocide. We ignored the "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses,...." when it came to offering save haven to those in desperate need of it.

so what? we do that every day. literally. We don't owe anybody outside this nation a thing. not one thing. not everybody who wants to gets in and not everybody being persecuted gets saved. it's a tough pill to swallow but it's the only one you get. The US is in no way culpable for any aspect of the WW2 holocaust. We still haven't worked out the fallout from the two holocausts we are responsible for. If you seriously imagine that black Americans will EVER stack our experience here below that of any persecuted foreigners- cambodian, tutsi, kurd, palestinian or jew- you are dreaming. It's an ugly thing to assume and an even uglier request to make.

American blacks aren't banging on England's door saying how rough we have it here. We don't blame Spain for Jim Crow. Learn the lesson we teach.


« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 07:47:26 pm by Redjack »
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michaelintp

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2008, 07:47:16 pm »
Mike you have thus far only been willing to hold ONE candidates' feet to the fire, and that is the problem. You have never to my knowledge been as critical of the behavior of Republicans or their supporters, much less the behavior of Israel. Every point that has been made about Israel and their actions have been defended or rationalized by you, and quite frankly some of it's actions are not defendable so these discussions never go anywhere productive. I again would like to see parity in these debates and not a holier-than -thou view of Israels actions/behavior while in the same instant be so certain of the motivations behind an opposing view of Israel, everyone who criticizes Israel is not Anti-Semitic


Israel sold arms to and supported the white racist apartheid government of South Africa. Israel likely saw a parallel between her battle with the PLO and the white racist apartheid South African government's struggle to resist surrendering to the black majority in that country. How many Jewish people believed that Israel was justified in making those arms sales to the apartheid, white racist government of South Africa? Nelson Mandela recognized and saluted the PLO as comrades. How many Jewish people had the audacity to find fault with Mandela for doing so? Just recently - within a few days in fact - I heard a report saying that either John McCain or dick cheney remarked that the Palestinian people deserve their own homeland. Will their feet be held to the fire as a result?


OK, hurumph ... here goes ...

Israel has supported the creation of a Palestinian state.  That was the whole idea of the Oslo Accords and the 2000 Camp David Summit: The creation of the Palestinian Authority that would transition to a Palestinian Government.  Prime Minister Barak and President Clinton actively pursued the matter.  The Israelis made major concessions in the pursuit of peace.  I remember this distinctly, as we were all very optimistic at the time.  I even had an Israeli and Palestinian flag on a little stand on my desk at work. Billions of dollars were transferred to the P.A. (unfortunately a large amount of these funds found their way to the Swiss bank accounts of the Palestinian leadership).  Arafat (in a surprise to everyone) backed out when the moment of decision arrived.  He could just not bring himself to make peace.  Even after the peace process collapsed, Israel has tried to act unilaterally. Most notably Israel forcibly expelled the Jewish residents of Gush Katif (a large community that many of the displaced persons had spent a lifetime building) and unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip.  Some argued that the Israeli withdrawal would “lessen the provocation” and give peace a chance. Liberal Jewish groups donated funds to make sure that the large Gush Katif community, the agricultural infrastructure, the hot houses etc, would be ready for the Palestinians to take over and use to improve their lives. Instead, immediately after the Israeli withdrawal, Hamas supporters entered the area and destroyed everything.  Hamas has proceeded to shower rockets into Israeli cities. I’m sure you are aware of the Hamas election victories in the last Palestinian general election.

The advocacy of a “Palestinian State” by Hamas is a joke (but not a funny joke). The Hamas vision of a Palestinian state is one stretching from the West Bank of the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea.  Hamas advocates the destruction of the whole of Israel and the extermination, expulsion and/or subjugation of the Jewish population.

Today it would be insane for Israel to agree to the creation of a Hamas terrorist state in the West Bank and Gaza.  Given the Palestinian Authority’s rejection of the peace process and rejected opportunities for a state over and over again, its own support of terrorist activities, and the widespread dissemination antisemitic hate propaganda in the Palestinian Media (including in children’s programming), the motives of the old PLO leadership are also highly suspect. However, perhaps over time something can be worked out.  My guess, however, is that it won’t be anytime soon.

The Camp David Summit in 2000 was not the first time the Arabs rejected a Palestinian state.  Jews had lived in Palestine for generations. The Zionist settlers in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries purchased land from the Turkish landowners. The original Palestinian Mandate administered by Britain to create a homeland for the Jewish People included the land both to the east and west of the Jordan River. Britain unilaterally carved out the eastern part of the Mandate and presented to an Arabian royal family after WWI as a consolation prize for not receiving Arabia (thus the state of Jordan was born, while the Saud’s got Arabia).  While the rest of Palestine was under British administration, Jews were massacred in Arab riots in the late 1920s and 1930s and (with the cooperation of the British) expelled from traditional Jewish areas, such as Hebron.  During WWII, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was an ally of Hitler.  Much of the propaganda disseminated at that time is still repeated in Palestinian circles today.  

After the War, the British (who saw a strategic interest in allying themselves with the Arabs) forcibly kept Jewish refugees from immigrating to Israel – with many, including my mother in law, placed in detention camps in Cypress.  In 1947 the Palestinian Partition Plan would have created a Palestinian state alongside Israel.  The British abruptly withdrew and provided material support for the Arabs.  An Arab-Jewish civil war ensued.  When in 1948 the UN ratified the creation of Israel, the Arab states rejected partition (a "two state solution") and declared war against the infant state.  They promised the Arab residents that the war would be over in a few days and urged the locals to get out of the way (or join the fight); they were primarily responsible for the creation of “Palestinian Refugees.”  Israeli Defense Forces, itself primarily comprised of refugees, miraculously prevailed against the invading Arab armies.  After 1948, hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees were forced to flee Arab countries, and were willingly absorbed by Israel.  Had the surrounding Arab nations (particularly Egypt) had the same attitude toward their Palestinian "brothers" there would have been no Palestinian refugee crisis.  Instead the Arab states used the Palestinians as pawns, keeping them in refugee camps (notably in Gaza), to keep the hatred of Israel alive.

After 1948 Gaza was held by Egypt, and the West Bank and East Jerusalem (including the Western Wall) were in Jordanian hands. Jordan had no interest in creating a Palestinian state, viewing the residents of the West Bank as Jordanian. In the early 1960s, the PLO was founded, when the West Bank was still part of Jordan.  The goal of the PLO then, and many believe now, was not the creation of a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza. The purpose was the destruction of the state of Israel.  

Today the majority of the population of Jordan is in fact Palestinian. In terms of its demographics, it is a Palestinian state.

When the Arab armies massed on the borders of Israel in 1967, with Nasser declaring he would “drive the Jews into the sea” Israel defended herself in what is now known as the Six Day War.  Israel captured the West Bank, Gaza and the Sinai – and Jerusalem was reunified.  This was not some war of colonial occupation. It was a war of total self-defense.  In 1973, on Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the Jewish calendar, Israel was again attacked. That time the state was almost destroyed.  The only thing that prevented Israel’s destruction was that the Egyptian army stopped in its tracks as it had penetrated way further than anticipated and didn’t receive timely central orders as to what to do next.  In any event, Israel did not do what many other countries have done when attacked by an enemy. Israel did not expel the hostile enemy population (as took place in parts of Europe after WWII).  Instead Israel gave administrative rights over the holiest of Jewish sites, the Temple Mount, to Muslim Administrators.  This is in stark contrast to the behavior of the Jordanians when they captured East Jerusalem in 1948: the destruction of Jewish consecrated sites and synagogues.

Jews began to settle - mostly in areas that had once been traditional Jewish areas (such as Hebron or near Hebron, for example) near holy Jewish sites, and in suburbs of Jerusalem (in the West Bank).  I was in Hebron and in these suburbs of Jerusalem a couple of weeks ago.  It is noteworthy that in the small Jewish area of Hebron, Arabs live in safety.  Jews, however, cannot live and could not live safely, in the rest of Hebron, administered by the P.A.  Hebron is the second most holy city (after Jerusalem) to the Jews, as it is where the Patriachs are buried. Even at the site of the Cave of the Patriarchs, the Jews are relegated to a relatively small area of the structure that is forbidden to be renovated (for fear of offending the Arabs).  However, the Arabs are free to renovate their much larger area in the structure, which I am told is beautiful (it is a mosque).  The huge structure was originally built by King Herod.

You also raise South Africa. The Israeli arms trade with Apartheid South Africa is a flashback to the 1980s. It is troubling, I agree. However, Israel did reverse course in its relationship with that regime. Other than as a mere pretense, this does not justify an endorsement of Hamas today, the topic we’ve been discussing (or at least were discussing before I went to work this morning, haha).

Israel was not the only nation to trade with South Africa. According to a State Department report issued in March of 1987, South Africa was receiving arms from several European countries, including companies from Britain, France, Switzerland and West Germany. However, it is true that over time Western European nations and manufacturers did drop out of the trade.  On March 18, 1987 the Inner Cabinet of the Israeli government denounced the Apartheid policy of South Africa and limited Israel's security ties with Pretoria. On September 16, 1987 the Israeli Cabinet approved a series of measures designed to limit trade, sports and cultural ties with South Africa.  

Today Israel maintains full diplomatic relations and cordial business contacts with South Africa.

If anyone is interested in this as a matter of historical interest, they can look at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-South_Africa_relations

It is worth noting that during the time frame of the 1970s and 1980s Israel was the victim of an insidious Arab Boycott, urged by the Arab states that sought, but failed, to destroy it.  Given the clout of the oil-rich Arab regimes, despite Israel’s efforts to provide foreign assistance to African countries, many African nations joined that boycott.  In recent years the boycott has weakened, but in the 1970s and 1980s it was very actively pursued.  Some general information is provided in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_and_political_boycotts_of_Israel

Regarding Israel’s historical relationship with South Africa, it is interesting that it was the opposition to British Colonialism (not “racism”) that forged the historical connection between Israel and South Africa. It is also worth noting that, although Jews accounted for only 2.5% of South Africa's white population and 0.3% of South Africa's total population, many Jews played notable roles in the anti-apartheid movement.  For example, when 156 political leaders arrested on December 5, 1956, more than half of the whites arrested were Jewish. They were charged with high treason resulting in the Treason Trial which lasted from 1956-1960. And, all of the whites initially charged in the 1963 Rivonia Trial were Jewish. For more information on this, you can read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_South_Africa

I question whether anyone has the time to read what I've written (Arghhhh!), and I sure don't have much more time to pursue this. The Hudlin Forum had these discussions ad nauseum before.  We could go round and round forever in a point-counterpoint fashion, and at the end of the day we will have burned hours of time.  

My only real purpose in laying all this out now is to express to you the perspective of a large segment of the American Jewish Community.  To help give you further understanding of why there may be some political fallout from the sympathetic publication of the Hamas stance in the “Pastor’s Corner” of the church bulletin.  
« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 11:03:30 pm by michaelintp »

Offline sinjection

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #72 on: March 26, 2008, 06:15:09 am »
Please explain this. It seems like you're saying the problems of Europeans should have been more important than the ones we have/had here. that can't be right, can it?


The U.S. has never allowed whatever internal problems it has had to interfere or involve itself in the affairs of other sovereign nations. The U.S. became involved in WWII during the Great Depression. Indeed, it has been said that WWII effectively pulled the nation out of the Depression. Internal social strife did not prevent the U.S. from involving itself in Vietnam. In truth, the U.S. involvement in Vietnam served to exacerbate the existing social problems we were experiencing at that time. Internal problems didn't prevent the U.S. from supporting Israel with money and arms. The U.S. govt. has invoked the Holocaust and our failure to respond in timely fashion to that attrocity for reasons why we bombed Yugoslavia in an attempt to stop the ethnic cleansing of Albanians. The U.S. govt invoked the Holocaust for reasons why we invaded Iraq - both times. Today, the economy is in recession and millions of Americans are losing their homes to foreclosure. We're sending billions of dollars to Iraq to rebuild their infrastructure and support their people in establishing a U.S.-friendly government, this same government who hosted Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Now, I ask you...does it look as if the U.S. is paying more attention and spending more money than we have to spend on a foreign nation when the American middle class is disappearing, our economy is going down the toilet and hate crimes against minorities are up since the late 1990's? The holocaust wasn't a "European problem" anymore than the obscene white racist apartheid government in South Africa was an "African problem". What happened to the Jews should have been a human rights problem. Today, as I have said, our government has inserted itself in the conflicts between ethnic groups of foreign nations using the example of its delay in acting during the Jewish Holocaust as the reason for doing so. So yes. I am saying that or nation should have given sanctuary to any Jew attempting to escape the Holocaust just as our government allows any Cuban national who is fortunate enough to reach the U.S. from Cuba to stay rather than to be deported back to Cuba.

 
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These racial problems did not prevent the U.S. from imposing economic sanctions on South Africa

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Bwahahahahahaha! "Sanctions." Yeah. Boy. We really showed them. Just as if we gave them the Dresden treatment.


Yes, we did show them. The sanctions coupled with the agitation by the native peoples of the former nation of rhodesia enabled Mugabe and his supporters to come to power and reestablish the nation of Great Zimbabwe. It wasn't long afterward that faced with the same pressure of international sanctions and the great agitation of the black majority that F.W. deKlerk freed Nelson Mandela from prison and allowed nature to take its course which today has given us two black Presidents of South Africa.


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and insisting they adhere to the Sullivan Principles.

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Oh. Come ON! Meanwhile Israel is in bed with the Boers. Give me a break. They brought their own lube.


Did I say anything about Israel in this statement? What I said (or meant to say), was this. The Sullivan Principles essentially told the U.S. corporations in South Africa how they were to conduct their affairs. It eliminated segregation, forcing whites and blacks to work together and to be treated fairly. The Principles also had a profound economic effect on the apartheid government.

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We wasted no time invading Iraq to "liberate" Kuwait.


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Money.


True. Does that make our invasion right and proper or does it make us look like the imperialistic nation some have accused us of being? Iraq invaded Kuwait because the nation owed Iraq a debt that went unpaid. The reason Iraq gave for invading Kuwait was that it was reclaiming a breakaway province of its own nation, much like China perceives Taiwan. The U.S. invaded Iraq for money and oil, but the reason it gave the world for doing so: "To free the people of Kuwait." And yes, the U.S. did have internal problems at that time. However, it decided to put those problems aside to go "fee the people of Kuwait."

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We wasted no time inventing a reason to invade Iraq for a second time and for what?

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"We?" i take no responsibility for that lying creep and his cronies in the white house.


 ::)

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We beat up on Grenada because we believed they had established a government that would become cozy with Cuba. We beat up on the Phillipines to remove a strongman we'd supported, sort of like Sadaam Hussein. Nothing is ever the business of the U.S. unless we decide to make it our business. The U.S. government had some idea what was going on in nazi germany.


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The US knew Germany was expelling undesirables. As I said, that was not perceived to be an American interest. It's sucky but they were not citizens of this country and we are under no obligation to consider them one way or the other.


"sucky", eh? It was inhumane. It was barbaric. Today, the U.S. will accept any refugee from a war-torn part of the globe provided their claims are legitimate. Africans who have escaped the genocidal wars there have settled in the U.S. and are now living the "American Dream". When the U.S. govt. turned away the Jewish refugees, they were sending those unfortunate people back to their deaths. There is no other way of looking at it. There is no way to absolve the nation of its guilt where that part of the Holocaust is concerned.

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If the anti-semite Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh knew about the nazi hatred for Jews, our government had to have known.


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Henry Ford was not a member of the government.


So what? Was Henry Ford more intelligent than the intelligence agencies the U.S. had at its disposal at that time? Ford supported hitler. Ford agreed with hitler. Charles Lindbergh did the same. This nation had to have known that the Jews were in deadly peril under the third reich. Those who learn nothing from history are bound to repeat that history. Did the world learn nothing from the Spanish Inquisition? The first sign of persecution of Jews by the german nazi government should have raised red flags.

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You're using modern behavior to retroactively hold the US accountable for something there was no way we could have known about. The POINT is, the US was an isolationist nation at that time with MASSIVE internal problems of which race was only one. Contrary to you your unsupported assertion, while Lindbergh was certainly an anti-semite and very enamored of German efficiency and convinced they couldn't be beaten in a stand-up fight (which was true at the time he made his report) the fact is, the camps weren't built yet, no one as being murdered wholesale and, most important, none of those people were Americans. The name of this planet is not America. We don't owe ANYBODY anything except our own citizens and cannot be held guilty for actions in other nations that we failed to prevent (especially those actions about which we had no knowledge).


Kristallnacht - The Night Of Broken Glass - took place in 1938. The entire world, the U.S. included, knew of the attrocity, knew of the peril the Jews were in and condemned the event. This "we don't owe anybody anything except our own citizens...", puts you in the minority of national thought. Yes, there are many today who ask why we have to be the world's policeman. It's because our nation has put itself in the position of being the world's policeman. This nation claims to be the sole superpower (I think that if we're not careful, we may find out the hard way that China is likely more than our equal militarily), and as the U.S. has cast itself in the role of liberator, your "we don't owe anybody anything...." is just a lonely statement blown away on the breeze.

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The U.S. acted in its own interests when they turned away the Jews.


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You have to stop with this. even the article you cited said tht the US turned away a stack of desperate peoples. Seperating the jews out as a unique group when they were clearly part of a larger trend is in opposition to the facts.


I never have to stop telling the truth. Among those "desperate peoples" who were turned away were Jews who were in mortal peril. This nation turned its back on innocent and frightened people, sending them back to face a torturous death. That is a fact.


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As you've said, the war was fought not specifically to liberate the Jews, but to "save the whole world". No. The war was fought because our government decided that the threat of the Axis powers to our own nation was serious enough at that time that we had to get involved. Many whites will say that the Civil War is how they paid off the debt of slavery. What about the horrific crimes against humanity that occurred AFTER the Civil War?


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Many whites are idiots. The civil war was about holding the union together. WW2 was about stopping the germans from taking over the world. Freeing the slaves and liberating the camps were incidental to the larger issues.


You know that the main purpose of the Civil War was to keep the Union together. I know that as well. And yet, in schools all over this nation, it is being taught to school children that slavery was as significant a reason for fighting the war as saving the Union was. Fighting the germans was all about keeping them from taking over the world? Why did we fight Japan?

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It's not about debts being paid. It's about historical fact. The facts are these. The U.S. turned away Jews fleeing genocide. We ignored the "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses,...." when it came to offering save haven to those in desperate need of it.


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so what? we do that every day.


Then that makes our nation one of hypocrisy doesn't it?

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literally. We don't owe anybody outside this nation a thing. not one thing. not everybody who wants to gets in and not everybody being persecuted gets saved.


Unless they happen to be Cuban, eh? Any refugee who can survive the trip from Cuba to Florida, is in like flynn once they put their pinky toe on U.S. soil.

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it's a tough pill to swallow but it's the only one you get.


 ::) uh huh.


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The US is in no way culpable for any aspect of the WW2 holocaust.


Tell that to Bill Clinton and both George "Bushes", all of whom cited the Holocaust in their reasons for U.S. war action in Yugoslavia and Iraq. In essence, they all said like the Jews, "never again."

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We still haven't worked out the fallout from the two holocausts we are responsible for. If you seriously imagine that black Americans will EVER stack our experience here below that of any persecuted foreigners- cambodian, tutsi, kurd, palestinian or jew- you are dreaming. It's an ugly thing to assume and an even uglier request to make.


I've never suggested that there be a heirarchy of painful, horrific experiences and that one should supercede the other. HUMAN SUFFERING IS HUMAN SUFFERING. All human suffering should be addressed. It would be great if all could be addressed at the same time. That isn't possible. Still, that does not negate the truth that during a time of extreme crisis for german Jews seeking to escape persecution and death at the hands of the nazis, this nation turned those people away. There needn't be a system created to rank "holocausts" by degree of suffering and who the sufferers were.

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American blacks aren't banging on England's door saying how rough we have it here. We don't blame Spain for Jim Crow. Learn the lesson we teach.


 Is that so? Then what was Frederick Douglass doing during the time he visited England? http://www.yale.edu/glc/archive/1078.htm  What was a prominent Abolitionist and black American (so to speak), to talk about during the two years he spent in Europe? Douglass absolutely spoke about how horrific life for the black man, the black slave was here in the U.S. I'm sure he wasn't the only one.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2008, 10:05:04 am by sinjection »
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Offline Battle

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #73 on: March 26, 2008, 06:39:43 am »
Well, it's germane.

The issues American Jews have with Israel, anti semitism, their treatment in the holocaust, has almost nothing to do with life in the US. Yes, there have been attacks on jews (hate crimes). Yes, they have been discriminated against in terms of not being allowed to stay in certain places, attend certain schools, clubs etc. But there was no governmental policy specifically in place to keep them down. There were no centuries of torture and degradations for them here. The VP of the Confederacy was jewish and, while many northern jews participated in the Civil Rights struggle, the majority of southern jews did not. Just like the other white folks down there. Jewish Americans, as a group, are no more and no less allied with blacks than the larger white populace and never have been.

Nothing that has happened to the American jewish population IN AMERICA stacks up against what has happened to blacks IN AMERICA.

BAM! ;)  Excellent points!

Offline sinjection

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #74 on: March 26, 2008, 06:52:14 am »
The US is in no way culpable for any aspect of the WW2 holocaust.


The rhetoric of recent presidents shows how accepted the Holocaust analogy is in American political life. “Out of our memory of the Holocaust,” Jimmy Carter enjoined, “we must forge an unshakable oath with all civilized people that never again will the world stand silent, never again will the world fail to act in time to prevent this terrible crime of genocide.” At the groundbreaking for the U.S. Holocaust Museum, George H.W. Bush admonished the audience, “Here we will learn that each of us bears responsibility for our actions and for our failure to act. Here we will learn that we must intervene when we see evil arise.” Finally, at the inauguration of the Holocaust Museum, Bill Clinton concurred: “For those of us here today representing the nations of the West, we must live forever with this knowledge: Even as our fragmentary awareness of crimes grew into indisputable facts, far too little was done.”

http://www.amconmag.com/2004_04_12/article3.html

So, you don't have to agree with it. You don't have to like it. But the facts are as I've stated them. This nation as illustrated by the foregoing quotes spoken by three of our Presidents disagrees with your point of view. Each of them believe that the U.S. did not respond properly to the Jewish Holocaust. Each of them have vowed that "never again" should we allow a similar attrocity to take place.

As you read through the article, if such is your desire, you will find that the author does seem to agree with your point of view, a point of view which is of course, at variance with my own.
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