Author Topic: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!  (Read 80884 times)

Offline sinjection

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1000
    • View Profile
Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #120 on: March 28, 2008, 10:10:36 am »
What's sad, Redjack is your attempt to squiggle and squirm in an attempt to snatch victory from an exchange of opinions that you want to see as a debate.

I made a statement and stood by it. Clearly I don't care about "one group" as I have said more than once that human suffering is human suffering. Period.

The examples I have provided absolutely supports my position that America essentially ignored what was happening to the Jews in Europe as I stated in my initial post of our exchange. Not only did the U.S. ignore what was happening to the Jews, they were spiteful about it as well. For many Americans of that era, I'm sure they believed that hitler was doing them a favor.

You said "American blacks aren't banging on England's door saying how rough we have it here." And I respond with an example of a legendary black American Abolitionist who spent two years in England doing just what you said American blacks aren't doing.

The point is absolutely relevant.
 
The only "bow" I'll be taking is one acknowledging the satisfaction of being able to navigate through all of your verbiage and attempts to make our exchange something it was not. My point, the U.S. essentially ignored the Jewish Holocaust. That point has been firmly driven home.
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

Offline sinjection

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1000
    • View Profile
Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #121 on: March 28, 2008, 10:15:59 am »
Since you seem to need a reminder.....


America isn't responsible in any way for the Holocaust so we don't owe anything on that score. Take it up with Germany.


Essentially ignoring what was happening to the Jews in nazi germany.

Turning away Jews seeking to emigrate to the U.S. in an attempt to escape the holocaust.

I'd say that those things are as bad as our government supplying Sadaam Hussein with chemcal weapons which he used on his own Kurdish citizens while our government turned a blind eye to that crime against humanity.

If the story attached to this link is any indication, I'd say America does bear some responsibility for the Holocaust.

http://www.jewishexponent.com/article/12232/

And let's not forget that this nation made it possible for many nazi scientists who participated in nazi germany's rocket program to escape justice so that their expertise could be exploited for our own outer space aspirations.


Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

Offline sinjection

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1000
    • View Profile
Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #122 on: March 28, 2008, 10:47:02 am »
From A History Of The Holocaust, Revised Edition
Yehuda Bauer

Excerpt from: "The Attitudes Of The Major Powers; The United States"

Throughout most of the war, the American government, as well as most non-Zionist Jewish groups, clung to the delusion that the Nazis were persecuting the Jews because of their political or religious beliefs. The basic misinterpretation was, of course, rooted in the fear of identifying the struggle against Nazism with a "Jewish" cause. Widespread antiSemitism in the United States and strong remnants of isolationis sentiment may help to explain this position, which resulted in American policies lagging several steps behind the Nazi onslaught.

Whereas the Nazis talked openly of their anti-Jewishness, the Anglo-Americans were hiding shamefacedly behind such euphemisms as "persecutees", "political and religious refugees", and the like. The Nazis persecuted and killed Jews. The Allies protested against Nazi persecution of "perscutees"

There was no need to know of the mass murder (up to 1942), in order to save as many European Jews as possible by bringing them into the New World. What was published in the American press was quite sufficient: the persecutions and deportations of German Jews until 1938; the pogroms of November 1938; the mass arrests of Jews and their murderous treatment in the Nazi concentration camps in 1938 and 1939; the establishment of the ghettoes, and the attendant waves of hunger, epidemics, and death, all this was presented in the press, photographed by newsmen who until 1941 could still visit Eastern Europe. The suffering of hundreds of thousands, soon of millions was evident for consciences to be aroused, for steps to be taken. Nothing was done. - Bauer, ibid; pp 80 - 81.

The United States in effect closed its gates to emigration from Europe in 1940 - 41, when German and West European Jews were still allowed to emigrate. Although the country was neutral, antisemitic tendencies were strong. In five polls between March 1938 and April 1940 some 60 percent of those responding thought Jews had objectionable qualities. In 1940 - 41, 17 to 20 percent of the population saw the Jews as a menace to the United States. They were believed to be more of a threat than the Germans and far more dangerous than Catholics or Blacks.

In ten surveys between 1938 and 1941, 12 to 15 percent were ready to support a general antisemitic campaign. An additional 20 percent were sympathetic to such a policy and 30 percent opposed it. The remainder did not care either way. Antisemitism actually increased during the war and started to decline at the end of it. The accusation generally leveled against the Roosevelt administration for its lack of action to save the Jews must be seen in the context of American public opinion: Could a democratic government go far beyond an intolerant, prejudice-ridden, antisemitic public? Could the American government run the "danger" of being accused of fighting a war for the Jews as the Germans said in their propoganda? Could a liberal President intent on mobilizing his people for a tremendous war effort risk unpopularity because of a minority against such prejudices were held?


Everything I've posted this morning, including this excerpt only serves to buttress my position even more firmly. I have supported my statement. I have made my case.

And now, I bow  :)
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

Offline Vic Vega

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 4151
    • View Profile
Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #123 on: March 28, 2008, 10:51:20 am »
Posted by: Redjack Posted on: Today at 11:53:07 AM

How a candidate feels about Israel or Hamas or the PLO is meaningless because that region is meaningless to the future existence of this nation. They don't produce goods we can't get elsewhere. They don't have any oil. They draw billions of dollars out of our economy annually with absolutely no return. They are a tick on the American economy. A candidate's opinion on CHINA or INDIA dies have deep and last impact on how things work here does matter because it is our companies giving our jobs to those countries and selling our economy to them that is having impact on all our lives.

In the current political climate (the one we've had for the last two decades in this country, at least) for a candidate (of the left or the right) to say the above bolded remarks would be commiting political suicide. The candidate would be in wingnut territory along with Pat Buchcanan and Ron Paul.

So on a practical level, a Presidential candidate's opinion on Israel and the Palestinians does matter. If it didn't there would not be this attempt by the Right to paint Obama as some sort of anti-semite by assocation (Today its Rev. Wright, yesterday it was Samantha Power).

It's the idea that Obama (or any of other candidates for that matter) would do anything to reverse the pro-Israel trend of the last 25-odd years that I find silly.

Offline sinjection

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1000
    • View Profile
Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #124 on: March 28, 2008, 11:40:19 am »
We did not get in early and that, ultimately, is why we turned the tide when we did get in. Before we joined in we revamped our entire economy in an impossibly short period of time. We shattered the traditional social structure in ways that led directly to the civil rights victories for women and blacks over the next decades and, oh yes, SAVED THE f*ckING WORLD.

 :) Oh, so melodramatic.

"...and, oh yes, SAVED THE F*UcKING WORLD."

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

And he called me "shrill"?

"..the f*ucking world."

...reminds me of the x-men for some inexplicable reason.

oh well  :D
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

Offline Redjack

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 2008
  • i've never had a hero. i don't worship people.
    • View Profile
    • a dreamnasium
Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #125 on: March 28, 2008, 11:51:29 am »
It's called wagging the dog, Vic.

The issue, as you rightly point out, isn't what Wright's views are but what Obama's views are. In practical terms, in real terms, the entire region should be written off as a liability with no possible gain on our investment. Even if there is a peaceful settlement, we don't gain a single thing. And we spend BILLIONS of dollars on that cesspool every year while our own people literally die in the street and our infrastructure crumbles around us. Excuse me if I think Americans and their well being is slightly more relevant than who should get to control a few miles of useless dirt.

The fact that a powerful lobby has a single issue litmus test, one that has no meaning in the context of our own society, and uses that single issue as a bludgeon to kill or promote a candidate is ugly and should be stopped.

It only works because the mass of the public doesn't take the time to actually dig into these things for the real facts and depend on "news" and pundits to make up their minds for them. So, yes, in practical, real political terms, Obama's opinion matters in the context of him getting elected but, also in those practical terms, there's no point in asking the question because we know, in advance, what he and every other candidate is going to say. So why ask? Why make an issue of it?

Fear and racism.

Fear beuase those who actually make a living on this stuff know that popular support is only as good as people's ability to choose between support and eating. Eating will always win unless you can make people angry or scared enough not to care about food. Opening a debate bout Israel and Palestine is a great way to stir things up

Racism because there's a basic distrust of black people in this country that runs deep enough to be exploited by any white candidate who wants to. It may prove to be Obama's Achillies' heel. We'll see.

Wright isn't running for anything and, if we're bouncing candidates by the things their preachers and supporters say, then NOBODY would get in. The entire discussion is a pile of sh*t meant to distract from the actual things that matter in this nation. The fate of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict just isn't on the list.

Obama makes people nervous in certain quarters because he keeps talking about excising the special interests from the political process but he doesn't say yet what he deems a special interest group to be. Those groups with lots of cash but little in the way of popular support stand to lose big if he wins and follows through on his promise so there's been a concerted effort to paint him into traditionally racist corners. Honestly, he won't do much excising in any case as no politician will.

So far he hasn't fallen in or allowed himself to be trapped and his polls show him to be, at this stage anyway, teflon covered. As we get closer and closer to the actual election the shots will get more and more nasty and less and less relevant to the actual problems facing the nation. The idea will be to scare Americans into backing away from their black candidate because he is black. They won't say it that way but that is the underlying message.

If the Demos do an end run around the electoral process in order to put Hillary in the chair, I will join the thousands of other blacks who will surely leave the party a a result.



Soon you will come to know. When the bullet hits the bone.

Offline Redjack

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 2008
  • i've never had a hero. i don't worship people.
    • View Profile
    • a dreamnasium
Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #126 on: March 28, 2008, 12:06:00 pm »
What's sad, Redjack is your attempt to squiggle and squirm in an attempt to snatch victory from an exchange of opinions that you want to see as a debate.

Don't give yourself too much credit. You couldn't best me in a debate on my worst day. Squirm? Please. 

My "opinion" isn't. It's what actually happened. Yours is based on a jaundiced and incoherent view of the facts as well as the conflation of multiple factors into an unsupported pattern.  yeah. We did save the f*cking world and there's nothing shrill about saying so.

Quote
I made a statement and stood by it. Clearly I don't care about "one group" as I have said more than once that human suffering is human suffering. Period.

Comma.
Yes. You say that but you only whine about one group and dismiss the realities of others. That's called being full of sh*t where I come from. Period.

Quote
The examples I have provided absolutely supports my position that America essentially ignored what was happening to the Jews in Europe as I stated in my initial post of our exchange. Not only did the U.S. ignore what was happening to the Jews, they were spiteful about it as well. For many Americans of that era, I'm sure they believed that hitler was doing them a favor.

The highlighted portions are what's wrong with pretty much everything you say. You don't know any of that. It's just how you feel. How you feel isn't relevant. Only what actually happened is. You continually ascribe motivations and knowledge to people and groups without verification or support. You consistently use phrases like  "essentially" and "I'm sure they did X" which show that even you know you don't have anything to stand on but opinion.

Yeah, everybody gets to have an opinion, but not all of them are equal or even equivalent. yours, in this case, is unfounded and unsound. Therefore crap.

Quote
You said "American blacks aren't banging on England's door saying how rough we have it here." And I respond with an example of a legendary black American Abolitionist who spent two years in England doing just what you said American blacks aren't doing.

The point is absolutely relevant.

Again, I think you need to reread the thing you're quoting and ask yourself how Frederick Douglas is even remotely germane. He's not.  Read it slowly. You're still not understanding your mistake.
 
Quote
The only "bow" I'll be taking is one acknowledging the satisfaction of being able to navigate through all of your verbiage and attempts to make our exchange something it was not. My point, the U.S. essentially ignored the Jewish Holocaust. That point has been firmly driven home.

It wasn't a "jewish" holocaust. There were 12 million people there, not 6. And they weren't ignored. they just weren't the point.  By your logic, by consistently omitting the other 6 million from your spew, you are equally culpable for their treatment at the hands of the Nazis.

Luckily we have better logic than yours to stand on.


Soon you will come to know. When the bullet hits the bone.

Offline Curtis Metcalf

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 4515
  • One never knows, do one?
    • View Profile
Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #127 on: March 28, 2008, 12:42:27 pm »
If the Demos do an end run around the electoral process in order to put Hillary in the chair, I will join the thousands of other blacks who will surely leave the party a a result.

Hear, hear. I haven't yet decided if my vote would go to McCain or Nader. Hopefully, it won't come to that.
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
"Be hard on systems, but soft on people."

Offline Curtis Metcalf

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 4515
  • One never knows, do one?
    • View Profile
Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #128 on: March 28, 2008, 01:26:18 pm »
Getting back to Rev. Wright (correct spelling: Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr.), I thought this opinion piece from Jonetta Rose Barras was insightful.
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
"Be hard on systems, but soft on people."

Offline Mastrmynd

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 8172
  • Check my new site www.top20takeover.VVCRadio.com
    • View Profile
    • http://arvellpoe.atspace.com/
Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #129 on: March 28, 2008, 01:26:34 pm »
i feel you curtis.
that would be the most f***ed up move in politics...


Listen to my entertaining radio show, "The Takeover: Top 20 Countdown" at www.top20takeover.VVCRadio.com.

Right on to the real and death to the fakers!  Peace out!

Offline moor

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1134
    • View Profile
Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #130 on: March 28, 2008, 06:47:15 pm »
If the Demos do an end run around the electoral process in order to put Hillary in the chair, I will join the thousands of other blacks who will surely leave the party a a result.

Hear, hear. I haven't yet decided if my vote would go to McCain or Nader. Hopefully, it won't come to that.

It would have to be Nader for me.  McCain will NEVER EVER get my vote. 

It would also likely be my last time voting as a registered Dem. 

Offline Tanksleyd

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1702
    • View Profile
Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #131 on: March 28, 2008, 10:46:30 pm »
Getting back to Rev. Wright (correct spelling: Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr.), I thought this opinion piece from Jonetta Rose Barras was insightful.


"...For a decade, tensions have been rising over questions ranging from what it means to be black, to whether there needs to be a new, post-civil rights meaning of racism, to what features of black America should be transmitted to the mainstream, to whether there even is such a thing as "black America" anymore..."

Could it be that we are on the verge of redefining "Black Identity". Twenty years ago Rev Wright's philosophy was common from church to the dinner table in MY Black community and oft times I/we didn't care if a White heard it or not. Somewhere around the NON-speech (Excuse the plug but I note this in the book I wrote) of Farakhan at the Million Man March I think it started to dawn on Black America that such speech is divisive if not outright racist.

Offline JLI Jesse

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 3788
  • We are men of action. Lies do not become us.
    • View Profile
    • Grab Them By The Pod
Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #132 on: March 29, 2008, 06:02:28 am »
It would have to be Nader for me.  McCain will NEVER EVER get my vote. 

You'd be better off not voting then.  Any vote for Nader would just encourage him to run again in 4 years and screw over another candidate.

Offline karaszero

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 2107
    • View Profile
    • karaszero
Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #133 on: March 29, 2008, 06:08:45 am »
And a vote for McCain will literally increase the body count and the number of disabled young men and women dying in this war! you really think he is the best choice for america? The dead deserve better than what their given

Offline Curtis Metcalf

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 4515
  • One never knows, do one?
    • View Profile
Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #134 on: March 29, 2008, 07:52:53 am »
It would have to be Nader for me.  McCain will NEVER EVER get my vote. 
You'd be better off not voting then.  Any vote for Nader would just encourage him to run again in 4 years and screw over another candidate.
And a vote for McCain will literally increase the body count and the number of disabled young men and women dying in this war! you really think he is the best choice for america? The dead deserve better than what their given
It is admittedly a dilemma. But if the Democrats screw Obama at the convention, I'll be damned if I will just take it. It's hard to imagine at this point any circumstances that would result in Hilary receiving my vote.
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
"Be hard on systems, but soft on people."