Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!

[Redjack]

Redjack, don't take this personally, but I didn't even bother to read your latest response to me. Your psuedo-sophisticated sophistry bores me. Your thinly-veiled antisemitic attitude appalls me.

The United States bears its fair share of the responsibility for the Holocaust. This, you cannot deny.

Wow. Just keep digging that hole. You obviously don't know when to stop. If you persist I'm really going to have to spank you. Now you're calling me an anti-semite? God, talk about boring.

You read them. You read every word and then got so outraged you had to spew your ridiculous theory yet again. It doesn't work, moron. Not only is it inconsistent internally and ahistorical it's too cartoony to withstand contact with actual reality.

Now, frankly, I'm only engaged in this with you because your ignorance is irritating. But, since you persist, let's take the boy to school. Pull up a chair and pay attention this time.

While no one has disputed the fact that the US kept out a large number of Jews during the period, what you consistently fail to acknowledge is that this was in no way pointed or special. The US routinely denied and continues to deny access to peoples fleeing horrible tyranny all over the world. That is our right as a sovereign nation-state and it is ABSOLUTELY morally proper for us to have and exercise that ability. moreover, internally, the US was not only an apartheid state but was engaged in its own eugenics programs in various regions. It should be noted that these programs were pointed not only at ethnic groups (of whcih jews ere not one) but also at whites who where, for whatever reason, deemed "genetically undesirable or inferior."

Your own figures set the US's self-created quota at around 27000, i beleive (didn't go back to look at the exact figure). Also by your own numbers the US accepted 21000 of those refugees. That leaves roughly 6k out in the cold. Sad for those 6, no question, but hardly evidence of bias towards that specific group. The quota is not meant to describe the number the US is REQUIRED to take but to set the number it should not exceed. There's a difference.

What you have failed to comment on because you don't know or because you don't care is the the numbers of other ethnic groups who were admitted/ barred during that period and in the intervening time. The reasons you omit this data are twofold.

1) as i said, despite your protestations about being involved with mankind, all you really care about is the Jews. Which is why I keep having to remind you of the other 6 million people the Nazis ran through the meat grinder. You don't mention them because they don't matter to you. That makes you a liar, Sin. And a bit of a ethnicist yourself, despite your lofty claims.

2) on some level you know your moralistic posturing is both unsupported and, frankly, idiotic and so you do whatever you can to hide the fact that the totality of the real facts don't support your position.

Yes. We saved the world, idiot. So did the Brits. So did the Russians. The one statement doesn't obviate the others.

Now, you myopic child, here are some salient dates and attendant facts that not only undercut your bullsh*t moralistic stance but put a stake through the heart of the notion that anyone was singled out for negative treatment.

1892- Ellis Island opens for business.

1903- the US makes rules restricting the access of ANYONE entering the country via the Mexican border.

1907- THIS IS BIG SO PAY ATTENTION IDIOT The US enacts several laws and reorganized the South Western states in order to stop the flow of immigrants crossing in from Mexico.

1917- 24 - Stack of acts limiting and further regulating ALL immigration including the establishment of ethnic and national quotas.

1940 - immigrants are now required to carry identification marking their status

1950 - Internal Security Act - Birthday of the modern GREEN CARD which was used as a means of IDing immigrants and, if they weren't carrying one, used as the primary reason for booting them out.

1968- AGAIN, MORON, PAY ATTENTION - this was the year the US acknowledged its traditionally racist immigration policy and DID AWAY WITH IT (sort of)

1976 - US stops giving preferential treatment to immigrants from Western states. (ah, now we're getting somewhere)

There's more, lots more in fact, but this is sufficient. There is NO WAY any healthy mind can look at the clear pattern of racist refusals in US immigration policy, a policy the US itelf eventually acknowledged and moved to fix, and make the case that somehow the jews fleeing persecution in Germany were singled out for mistreatment. They were not. Clearly. That's reality. It's not my opinion. It's not the result of "anti-semitism." It is simply a fact.  Okay? You're done. Fold it up and walk away.

I'm not an anti-semite, idiot. I have no feeling about semites one way or the other as is clear from my complete indifference to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. BOTH sides are semites. You get that, right? Indeed, I consider such descriptions of peoples to be archaic, even anachronistic. Semites are, according to tradition, the children of Shem, a fictional construct, who is the son of Noah, another fictional construct who is based upon another fictional construct called Utnapishtim. No one is actually a semite because there was no such person as Shem. Those who deem themselves to be semites are genetically indistinguishable from one another. I am acquainted with reality, you see.  I don't generally waste time on hating groups that don't actually exist.

If you want to go on believing in fairy tales and taking enormous moralistic stances based upon those tales, be my guest, but now you don't have the excuse of ignorance of the actual facts.  Ignorance, in itself, is nothing to be ashamed of. Everybody is ignorant of something. It's easy to correct. Either you dig yourself for the new data or somebody does you the favor of telling you.

You have just been told. You are not ignorant anymore. Now, if you keep making the same mistake, it is because you are stupid which is something that is not as easily fixable.

This was over when I told you it was over and it's REALLY over now.

[moor]

It would have to be Nader for me.  McCain will NEVER EVER get my vote. 

You'd be better off not voting then.  Any vote for Nader would just encourage him to run again in 4 years and screw over another candidate.

i understand what you're saying Jess, but damn...

[sinjection]

Thing is, Powell was so marginalized in the Bush Administration that he didn't even stick around for the second term.  He so disillusioned with the GOP, that he's been advising Obama on foreign policy, and when asked point blank if he'd vote for the GOP nominee in November, Powell's only response was that he'd vote for who he felt the best candidate was.  That should tell you how he felt he was treated by that group.

This is true, Damon. However, during Bush's initial run for the Presidency, he was always able to get a rousing applause whenever he would mention to those at his rallies; "And Colin Powell is going to be your Secretary of State!" *applause*applause*applause* During "Desert Storm", Sec. of Defense, Dick Cheney, Chairman of the Joint Chief Of Staff, Gen. Colin Powell, and Gen. Norman Schwartzkopf basked in something of the "rock star" status that some have said Obama now enjoys. It was Powell's extremely swift and aggressive strategy used in "Desert Storm", known as the "Powell Doctrine", which was so successful in that engagement. Chairman Powell would also be blamed by some and in some circles for pulling Gen. Schwartzkopf back, not allowing him to invade Iraq proper. Even then, Powell was wise enough to know what would happen if we had done so.
 
It is my recollection that during the afterglow of "Desert Storm", only Dick Cheney was a confirmed Republican. The party affiliations of Powell and Schwartzkopf were unknown and both men were the darlings of the GOP. When Gen. Norman Schwartzkopf declared he was a Democrat, he seemed to disappear overnight. Chairman Powell on the other hand was a Republican and he became even more beloved, admired and desired by the GOP. I believe that up until Powell, the most significant black American in the GOP, said to have a very bright future was former U of Oklahoma Sooner QB, Congressman J.C. Watts who - hearkening back to your point to why Powell became "disillusioned" and resigned his office - feeling as if he was mere window dressing, a successful black face for the GOP to present to the U.S. and the world, resigned his seat. There were some who wanted Powell to be tapped as VP candidate, just as today there was talk that Condoleeza Rice could make a very interesting running mate for McCain. Dr. Rice is determined to return to civilian life, so that possibility is out.

I remember Powell as a highly-regarded figure, indeed, some considered Powell to be the "star" of the Bush administration. European leaders seemed to have more respect for Sec. Powell than they did for the President himself. Then came the ill-fated "Operation whatever-the-hell-it-is" conceived by "Hussein and his sons have until midnight to get out of town", George Bush. The story the lying Bush administration fed the nation and the world is that Iraq possessed WMD and was a training base for Al Quaeda, both claims which could not be substantiated by UN investigators on the ground. Powell was a believer of the UN investigators and there was for a time, a split between Powell and the Bush administration that had to have frustrated and embarrassed Bush, as Powell traveled Europe trying to forestall war. Powell had strong support from France who held the belief that war with Iraq was uneccessary and would be the wrong thing to do. You remember the response of many Americans to the "France stance". French products were boycotted. Restauranteurs were pouring expensive French wine down sewer drains. Finally under mounting pressure from Cheney, Rumsfeld and quite probably Dr. Rice, Powell relented and addressed the UN with "facts" that he might say he believed, but deep down, probably did not. Stupid Sec Ruimsfeld wanted his own "rock star" Cheney,Powell,Schwartzkopf legacy. You remember how jovially he conducted his press conferences during "shock and awe"...when Bush was sputtering, "Mission Accomplished". Colin Powell, who during "Desert Storm" told then Sec of Defense Cheney and others, "You break it, you own it." - something to that effect - saw the GWB Administration leading the nation and her young soldiers into the quagmire Powell knew would be there. Disheartened and disgusted, I'm sure it was the main reason why Secretary Powell resigned and now supports Barack Obama.

As for Condoleezza Rice, the only reason she's still around is because she's a Bush bootlicker who'll only tell him what he wants to hear.

  Well Damon, I can't say she is one way or the other. What I do know is that Condoleeza Rice is a brilliant and highly-accomplished black American woman who if a poll of the most influential black American women were held today, should probably be second only to Oprah...but knowing how media conscious we are at times, there would probably be actresses and rappers ahead of her. And I think we do have to agree that Condoleeza Rice now holds a cabinet level position that far exceeds any held by a black man or woman in a Democratic President's cabinet.

Lynn Swann may be a popular former Steeler, but he was an awful candidate.  I saw an interview with him prior to the election, and his answer to almost every question was "I don't know."  These were questions about issues he should've had some opinion on.

Damon, I'm not disputing what you're saying, but look at who the U.S. elected for two terms as President. GWB wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed either. It was said that while Gov. of Texas, Bush knew next to nothing about Iraq and couldn't have cared less about it. I recently saw a replay of a private interview candidate Bush gave to some newsman who was asking him about foreign policy facts and he chuckled, snorted and proved to be ignorant of most of the answers to questions put to him. When questions about his military service and past run-ins with law enforcement were brought up, Bush simply said, "I'm not going to deal with it." and went on about his bumbling Bush business.

But what Bush had going for him was this. He was appealing to "the angry white male", some of the same so-called under-educated sort said to now be supporting Mrs. Clinton. Lynn Swann didn't fare very well with that demographic. Obama has yet to prove consistent strength when it comes to capturing that demographic. Clinton's got that demographic in her purse along with older white women, younger white feminists and the latino vote of which has been said, is loathe to vote for a black candidate. This being the case, I have to go with what Gov. Rendell's statement and the historical evidence of the "Tom Bradley effect". I don't want to, but at the moment there isn't any evidence suggesting that things have changed that much.

And you know, Obama's opponents will always have the Rev. Wright "boogeyman" to pull out, along with Obama's if not muslim, then white people-America-hating "unashamedly black" religion. Who knows? There may have been many votes cast by whites thinking, "Obama's not really black anyway. He did come out of a white woman afterall." I have heard some people say this on those radio talk shows.

[sinjection]

Yes. We saved the world, genius. (I fixed it for you  ) So did the Brits. So did the Russians. The one statement doesn't obviate the others.

Yawn.

So when I neglect to mention the Poles, the Gypsies, the Homosexuals and other victims of the Holocaust which the U.S. is in large part responsible for allowing to occur, then I am only concerned about the Jews and have no feeling, no compassion, no interest in mentioning the suffering of the others. You accuse me of this even though I have said time and again that human suffering is human suffering, period. Unlike you, I don't ascribe to the "me first! me first!" "get in line" approach. The suffering of all must be addressed and eliminated.

But here you are with your hysterical and now hypocritical "...oh yes, and SAVED THE F*CKING WORLD". You didn't mention the Allies or the Soviets in your initial bluster. You were only concerned about what the U.S. did, how the U.S. revamped her economy, how the U.S. "did this" and "did that". It is only last night and one time previous to your most recent bore fest of a post (which I didn't read, but only skimmed and then discarded), when I reminded you that the U.S. didn't save the world by itself that you conceded the Brits and the Soviets "saved the world, too."

Excerpt from reply #86:

We did not get in early and that, ultimately, is why we turned the tide when we did get in. Before we joined in we revamped our entire economy in an impossibly short period of time. We shattered the traditional social structure in ways that led directly to the civil rights victories for women and blacks over the next decades and, oh yes, SAVED THE f*ckING WORLD. (Red, for Redjack)

  Oh, so melodramatic. The U.S. played a large part in saving the world, this is true. Do not forget about our Russian ally. Without their withering assault on germany, forcing her to fight a war on two fronts, the Eastern front being the most damaging because the Russians weren't playing. The U.S. was able to do its part in saving the war with our Russian and British allies. (Blue, for true blue sinjection) 



So, when I don't always mention the others who suffered the Holocaust beside the Jews, I'm not concerned about the suffering of those others even though I've always said human suffering is human suffering. But conversely, you are expected to believe that I should assume that when you say "...oh yes, and SAVED THE F*CKING WORLD", that you were not just talking about what the U.S. did, but you were also crediting the Allies and the Soviets whom you never mentioned until I reminded you that they too participated in putting down the third reich. The word "we" - "we" being the U.S. - appears in your statement no fewer than six times. No mention of the Soviets. No mention of the Brits. Only a mention that "We did not get in early..." "...we joined in..." "we turned the tide..." and then, the most hysterical part of your histrionics "...and, oh yes, SAVED THE F*CKING WORLD."    You used the word "we" so many times - "we" being the U.S." - who might have guessed that when you said "we", you were including the Britains and the Soviets? Einstein maybe?

Geesh Maurice. I swear, whenever I see a post contributed by you in the future, I will run, not walk in the other direction as fast as my optic nerves will carry me. 

[sinjection]

Getting back to the original topic of this thread ...

Mike, I wish I could ask these questions in a way that would better convey my meaning. Wasn't Menachem Begin considered a terrorist? Wasn't the Igrun recognized as a terrorist organization? Once the State of Israel was established and supported by the U.S. and Great Britain, Menachem Begin became a respected Prime Minister. Begin, Jimmy Carter and the great Anwar Sadat were hailed as great peacemakers. Begin walked in Sadat's funeral procession following his assassination.

Now, it's my understanding that Hamas won the right to represent the Palestinian vote because the Palestinian voter chose Hamas over the Fatah faction. Hamas said it would work toward making life better for the Palestinian people and would participate in talks with Israel. The U.S., Israel and the Fatah were not happy with the new station of Hamas. Fatah actually skirmished with Hamas early on if I'm not mistaken. Why is it that after Hamas achieved their political victory, Israel, the U.S. and Fatah chose to discomfort them rather than exploring how their new responsibilities would affect how they act?

The PLO and Arafat once pledged to destroy Israel but when convinced it was easier said than done, Arafat turned to talks and negotiations. It seems to me that Hamas has been denied that opportunity to do so.

[karaszero]

We all know what the original topic of the thread was, it didn't get derailed until over the top judgement calls were made and in the spirit of parity I brought up the holocaust, I don't didn't list a # of facts to support my statements I used common sense to put together different scenarios that would require mike to step up and be honest about his beliefsof right and wrong, for me he failed. For the record I felt bad anytime I have seen pictures of holocaust victims but NEVER as bad as the pictures of lynchings,whippings ( the keloids were at least 6 inches high) of slaves. I have an Aunt who is now in her 80s if you had a conversation with her concerning the holocaust she would be at the point of crying hysterically, and she would say over and over again how horrible that was; oh those poor souls had it rough you know that real earnest sort of empathy all humans should have towards one another, but if you said that the middle passage was horrific, and described some of the atrocities that happened she went cold there was a disconnect from that reality. I will never minimize the hell my ancestors endured in this country by elevating the pain of others just so THEY can feel special. What was that saying? I want to be pro human but all humans aint pro black

[karaszero]

I don't think powell could honestly keep lying to himself. He failed on many levels and he got what he deserved in the end....embarrassed he was smarter than his boss, but dumb because he CHOSE to follow Bush

[sinjection]

For the record I felt bad anytime I have seen pictures of holocaust victims but NEVER as bad as the pictures of lynchings,whippings ( the keloids were at least 6 inches high) of slaves.

When I see the pictures of the lynchings, recall the horrors of slavery, recall the horrors of the Reconstruction...of one incident in particular when a pregnant wife on the verge of giving birth, is made to watch her husband lynched before she is then lynched herself. During her death throes, she gives spontaneous birth to the infant. When it falls to the ground, its skull is immediately crushed beneath a klansman's boot. When I see pictures of people who are no more than living skeletons peering blankly out at the world with deeply set haunted eyes, when I see the picture of a man about to be executed, kneeling at a ditch already filled with mounds of the dead, the ss trooper's gun held inches from his head, the man about to be murdered looking directly at the camera which gives the startling effect that he is looking directly into the viewer's eyes, when I see little girls of the various ethnic, religious groups butchered by the nazis, wearing pretty dresses, being forced to smile before being murdered days or perhaps hours later, I am devastated. I was devastated when I saw pictures of South African soldiers blasting away youthful lives of the black children who threw stones at them. I was devastated when I saw pictures of Congolese men, their arms ending in pointed stumps at their wrists, standing around a mound of dismembered human hands rising to the level of their thighs. As a black man, I too am particularly sensitive to the suffering of black people. As a human being, a human being who loves animals as well, I hurt whenever I see the suffering of any human or beast.

That's just the way I am.

[karaszero]

I understand you man, it disturbs me that animals have more rights than some humans. It is dangerous for black people to minimize the sufferings of their ancestors.

[sinjection]

I don't think powell could honestly keep lying to himself. He failed on many levels and he got what he deserved in the end....embarrassed he was smarter than his boss, but dumb because he CHOSE to follow Bush

Easy to say, but what might any of us have done in his position? The nation had recently suffered a devastating terrorist attack on our soil. There was the urgent desire to locate and punish the responsible parties. And Colin Powell, American hero, American champion, conqueror of Iraq during "Desert Storm", U.S. Secretary of State, is at odds with the administration he represents in that capacity over a war he didn't want to fight the first time, with very good reason, and is in the position desperately trying to avert that which he was able to prevent happening in "Desert Storm". The nation needed to be unified. Colin Powell was faced with a very difficult dilemna, present a united front even at the cost of reputation, personal conscience and tremendous loss of life or resign, be labeled a traitor while watching Condoleeza Rice address the UN in his place doing the exact same thing he was made to do.

I'm not saying what Colin Powell did was right. I'm saying that I wouldn't want to judge him.

[sinjection]

I understand you man, it disturbs me that animals have more rights than some humans. It is dangerous for black people to minimize the sufferings of their ancestors.

If that's what you believe I'm saying, then I'm afraid you don't understand me at all. There is no reason to treat any animal inhumanely. And what makes you think I was minimizing the sufferings of black people when I related the abominable attrocity of the lynching of the man, his pregnant wife and the brutal end of life for the child she birthed during her death throes?

I can be sensitive to the suffering of human beings and not minimize the suffering of my people.

[karaszero]

I was a soldier in the sand box during the first DS, maybe it is just me but I wouldn't follow a fool ( no matter the rank) to my death. Powell was a general officer, he was automatically empowered as the most combat tested, experienced mind in the room especially when the room is filled with people who lacked the balls to wear a uniform. The way that he stayed the course with the Bush Admins flawed rhetoric disgusts me he could have been more forceful in his disagreements, bush wouldn't have had the guts to go toe to toe with powell in the public eye, he could only hope to discredit him in some way and he needed to Back door powell to do it....enter C Rice

[karaszero]

No I do understand you I don't advocate brutality to animals in fact I believe they are the last noble spirits living on this planet, it is not their behavior which is destroying the planet it's ours. I was not implying that you were unable to feel black suffering in any way

[sinjection]

I was a soldier in the sand box during the first DS, maybe it is just me but I wouldn't follow a fool ( no matter the rank) to my death.

I thank you for your service.

Powell was a general officer, he was automatically empowered as the most combat tested, experienced mind in the room especially when the room is filled with people who lacked the balls to wear a uniform. The way that he stayed the course with the Bush Admins flawed rhetoric disgusts me he could have been more forceful in his disagreements, bush wouldn't have had the guts to go toe to toe with powell in the public eye, he could only hope to discredit him in some way and he needed to Back door powell to do it....enter C Rice

Did Powell truly "stay the course" with the lies which were being told by the Bush administration? If so, then why did it seem Powell was at odds with the administration? I remember France and Germany supporting Powell's position that was at that time, one that evinced no desire to rush into war with Iraq. Bush wasn't alone. He had Rumsfeld, Cheney who had backing them, a nation filled with bloodlust and who at that time, possibly remembering how "easily" the U.S. "defeated" the Iraqis in "Desert Storm", war against Iraq would be nothing more than a cakewalk. Sec Powell served two tours in Vietnam. He knows the hardships of a soldier's life. He knows what it is to die on the battlefield. Powell could have done many things. In the end, Powell did what he believed what was in the best interests of a nation hellbent on "fighting a war against terror". The only thing I can say is, I'm very happy that I was not Sec. Powell and I do wish the man well.

[sinjection]

No I do understand you I don't advocate brutality to animals in fact I believe they are the last noble spirits living on this planet, it is not their behavior which is destroying the planet it's ours. I was not implying that you were unable to feel black suffering in any way

Then please, accept my most sincere apologies karaszero. I was mistaken.