Author Topic: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!  (Read 87107 times)

Offline Tanksleyd

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #210 on: April 02, 2008, 02:52:08 am »
michaelintp you never were going to vote for Obama anyway per the 9/11 issue (Aren't you glad I asked you before this Wright story broke!). Yet thanks to Obama's leadership (speech) the scandal has been contained to giving non-Obama supporters something to talk about. (Some of those non-Obamas though like Bay Buchanan and Mike Smerconish have changed their tune a bit since March 18th.)

It is my firm belief that everyone in America while not violent or outrageously unfair, everyone in America is racist...We all want to dance to our own music. Of course everyone here to include you, Jesse Jackson and John Hagee deny that with their last breath but here we are with our repective gods and their representatives:

Your guy says "Wrath of god" with love for strangers.

My guy says "Wrath of god" with love for strangers.

What's so strange about that?

michaelintp

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #211 on: April 02, 2008, 07:34:43 am »
michaelintp you never were going to vote for Obama anyway per the 9/11 issue (Aren't you glad I asked you before this Wright story broke!).

Agreed.  Sure I'm happy you asked me.  Geepers, anyone who knows me on this forum would have guessed I wasn't voting for Obama because of those issues.  The thing is ... before all this stuff broke, I didn't question his character.  Now I'm more inclined to see him as just another smooth talking politician ... albeit a very effective smooth talker.  I'm the first to admit that maybe I'm wrong.  I don't hold such confidence in the chunk of meat between my ears.  I guess if he became President and through experience I saw that his actions matched his current words, then I would be able to form an informed positive opinion.  Maybe we'll find out.

As to ministers and wrath of G-d, I dunno.  My rabbi talks about bringing the Geula (the Messianic Era) with acts of goodness and loving kindness.

As to "everyone is a racist" ... I don't believe that is true.  But then, like I said, there have been times in the past when I've not been the best judge of character.

Offline Tanksleyd

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #212 on: April 02, 2008, 07:47:37 am »
When America learns to deal with the Ghetto (Stole that from you guys...But you know how us guys are ;) ) She will be better prepared to deal with the Mid-East.

Excuse the edit but preachers have been preachin' the "wrath of god" since Noah (Ark, ark as Mork would say).

Do you deny that?

(Again excuse the edit)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 10:02:12 am by Tanksleyd »

Offline moor

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #213 on: April 02, 2008, 10:37:53 am »
Jeepers, I guess not very many people wear yarmulkas in your neighborhood.  :o

... Oh wait, I take it back.  The Black Israelites.   ;)
[/quote]


That line made my day.  Zing!  Thanks, Mike :D


Carry On....

michaelintp

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #214 on: April 02, 2008, 07:37:59 pm »
Excuse the edit but preachers have been preachin' the "wrath of god" since Noah (Ark, ark as Mork would say).
Do you deny that?
(Again excuse the edit)

Yeh, well, I think we've suffered enough "wraths of G-d" as it is.  That's why the group I'm most affiliated with focuses on the positive ... of the world-transformative good that can result if we do the right thing.  It is a very "Messianic" sect of Judaism, for sure.  But ya know, given the state of this world, I wouldn't mind a few miracles to turn things around.  Believe me, we need 'em. :)

Oh, and Moor, glad that my little yarmulka joke made your day.  ;D

Offline Tanksleyd

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #215 on: April 02, 2008, 09:04:32 pm »
So "Wrath of God" is common but YOUR group is taking and/or has taken the high road?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 09:17:38 pm by Tanksleyd »

michaelintp

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #216 on: April 02, 2008, 11:03:51 pm »
So "Wrath of God" is common but YOUR group is taking and/or has taken the high road?

High implies the other is low ... and that implication carries with it all kinds of egotistical implications. I never thought about it that way. It is just more of a hopeful road, I guess. Maybe that's why it appeals to me ... because by my nature I am not.  So by immersing myself in such a system, I strike more of a balance to counteract my natural tendencies. 

That is not to say that terrible things don't happen. We all know they do. And in Christianity, Judaism and Islam there are "End Days" notions. Though there is a respected rabbinic view that WWII was that global conflagration. However, even if one believes that the "War of Gog and Magog" is something prophesized to happen in the future, it is not inevitable. While G-d never retracts a promise for the good (since G-d is not a liar), G-d may withhold threatened punishment if we do teshuvah (repent and do good deeds)(See the story of Jonah and Nineveh).  So better to focus on the positive. The Messianic Era can come in one of two ways - one way is the Messiah coming "before his appointed time" (if we do mitzvahs, good deeds, with a dedicated heart) or, the second way, is "at his appointed time" (the final deadline, though then his coming would be prefaced with all kinds of global hardships). But he will come, because G-d promised that there will be a Geula (a Messianic Era, a time of redemption for the whole of humanity). It is only a matter of how, and when. That's up to us.

Anyway, maybe we should start a theology thread to discuss religious perspectives ... ?  I fear I'm boring everyone to death.  Um ... not that that ever stopped me before, hahahah.  ::)  But somehow this thread doesn't seem to be the place for this kind of discussion.

Edited to clarify a concept - "reward" certainly can be contingent on conduct, but a "promise for the good" is an absolute promise.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 07:40:24 am by michaelintp »

Offline Tanksleyd

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #217 on: April 03, 2008, 12:26:23 am »
So preachers of ALL faiths use the "wrath of god" but there is a better way?

(PS: Is "g-d" pure? I mean specifically with your " - " spelling.)

michaelintp

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #218 on: April 03, 2008, 08:13:11 am »
So preachers of ALL faiths use the "wrath of god" but there is a better way?

(PS: Is "g-d" pure? I mean specifically with your " - " spelling.)

Well, the threat of Divine punishment can be used to modify people's behavior, to make them behave better, avoid sinful conduct, and even do good deeds. The prospect of Divine reward (in this world or in the World to Come) can also induce a person to do the right thing.  However, to a large degree one tends to be "self-focused" when one thinks in terms of personal reward and punishment.  In contrast, you can try to do the right thing not not so much to benefit yourself but to benefit vast numbers of people, because our acts can have Divine consequences far beyond ourselves. Another way to be motivated is out of love for G-d.  Knowing that the Divine commandments are so important to G-d, to avoid wrongful conduct and to do good deeds, you just do them out of love. Avoiding wrongful conduct and doing good deeds out of love for G-d to bring the Moshiach is the ultimate expression of this sentiment, because then you are "other-focused" on benefitting the whole of humanity and your motivation is wholly out of love -- both for your fellow human beings and for G-d.

Speaking in terms of "levels" it is understood that doing mitzvahs (good deeds) out of love is a "higher" level than doing good deeds or avoiding sinful conduct out of fear.  But the doing of the good deeds and the avoiding of doing wrong things, even motivated by fear of punishment or promise of personal reward, still has merit.  Because the deeds are in and of themselves are important.  But yes, the ideal is to act out of love.

As to what is G-d?  G-d is ineffable.  G-d is One. G-d is not comprised of component parts, as that would imply division. No human being can conceptualize G-d.  That is why I use the hyphen.  The Hebrew four-letter spelling of G-d's name, the Tetragrammaton, is never pronounced when one reads Hebrew.  [That word is similar to the first name of the group the J______ Witnesses].  Instead when that word appears we pronounce the word "Hashem" - which translated means "The Name."   While when thinking about G-d we think it terms of human attributes, because our minds are limited, and we think and write in the "language of man" we understand that such concepts are more to help us get along, to foster right conduct. 

So in answer to your question - preaching "God's wrath" can induce people to obey God's will.  But there is a more positive way.  To motivate people to do the right thing out of love.  To give examples in your sermons of men and women who have done so, who have had to undergo personal or collective challenges to do so, to focus on the collective good that awaits humanity, and to take personal responsibility for bringing that about.  Through good needs and acts of loving kindness.  The Lubavitcher Rebbe would say, "Just one more Mitzvah can bring Moshiach now!"  Just one more good deed can tip the scale for the good.

So yes, I guess I would say ... that that is a better way.  But hey, whatever works to get people to do good deeds is also good.  Because in reality most of us are not on such a high level that we are always motivated out of altruistic love.  Though that is the ideal.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 08:16:30 am by michaelintp »

Offline Tanksleyd

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #219 on: April 03, 2008, 08:21:18 am »
Ok, I'll take your answer to be that ALL faiths do the "Wrath of God" thing but there is a better way to the land of "G-D".

That kinda rhymes with god damn.

michaelintp

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #220 on: April 03, 2008, 08:53:37 am »
Ok, I'll take your answer to be that ALL faiths do the "Wrath of God" thing but there is a better way to the land of "G-D".
That kinda rhymes with god damn.

Hard for me to become motivated by "G-d Damn."  For me personally that does not elicit the motivation to do good.  It would just make me angry and depressed.  For me personally, I would rather be motivated to do good to help others, and for my rabbi to share stories of men and women who were dedicated to doing so, dedicated to transforming the world ... even in the face of terrible hardships, persecution, and so on.  And stories of miracles that do take place in our individual lives and in the lives of others.

Sheeeesh, to get the feeling of "G-d damn" all I need to do is turn on the nightly news.  I don't need that.

I suppose it may work for others though.  Different strokes for different folks.

Offline Tanksleyd

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #221 on: April 03, 2008, 08:59:18 am »
I merely pointed out that "G-D" has a certain relationship to God Damn. In fact some people use them interchangeably.

Beyond that we agree that ALL faiths use "wrath of god" to deliver the flock to their perceived state of "G-D"

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #222 on: April 04, 2008, 07:44:07 am »
I do like Candorville:

"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
"Be hard on systems, but soft on people."

Offline Tanksleyd

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Re: Obama's Church Endorsed Terrorist Organization HAMAS!
« Reply #223 on: April 04, 2008, 07:48:54 am »
Curtis again with the quote of the week...Awesome!

Offline Hypestyle

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Catholic Priest defends Wright over controversy
« Reply #224 on: April 04, 2008, 09:09:47 am »
Fox News interviews Rev. Michal Pfleger on the ongoing controversy--

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?videoId=1fd1c0cf-5c80-4d75-996f-bd53b2461ae0&sMPlaylistID=
Be Kind to Someone Today.