Author Topic: Originals vs the Legacies  (Read 9101 times)

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Originals vs the Legacies
« on: August 23, 2008, 08:17:20 am »
I'm trying to figure something out, and need your help.  Lately it seems like the Big Two are more interesting in revamping a white character into a black (or other minority) character, than creating brand-new Black heroes.  But I am wondering if that's reality or just persepective and if it's true, is a recent trend or an old trend. 

So, I'm trying to figure out which characters are originals, which are legacies and which decade they come from.  (and I'm only interested in characters that showed up more than a single or couple of stories, then vanished. )  OK, Legacy means that the there was an older version of the character that the new character was modeled after.  Sometimes it's obvious and part of the story like the Original Firestorm to the Current Firestorm, and other times, its less obvious like the original Deathlock to the current Deathlock.

Ex.
1960's
Originals:

Black Panther

1970s
Originals:

Storm
Falcon
Cage
Prowler
Black Lightning

Legacies:
Black Goliath
John Stewart-GL

1980s
Originals:

Cyborg
Captain Marvel (Monica) (though her name is a legacy name)

Legacies:
Deathlock
Iron Man 2/War Machine

1990s
Originals:

Rage
Night Thrasher
Siloette (sp wrong)
entire Milestone line.
Bishop

Legacies:
Triatholon/3-D Man

2000s
Originals


Legacies:
Mr. Terrific
Patriot
Firestorm
Star Boy (Legion of Super-heroes)
Mr. Miracle
The Truth/Captain America (and his son/grandson Patriot).
« Last Edit: August 23, 2008, 07:45:55 pm by KIP LEWIS »

Offline Blanks

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Re: Originals vs the Legacies
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2008, 06:49:18 pm »
Well, its hard for the big two to create brand new main characters, that would have a nice backing enough to stand on their own. Take Gravity for example. It bombed, even though it was a brand new character without any ties to any pre-existing Marvel character. However, a lot of Marvel and DC characters that were created back in the 60's, 70's and 80's, those character names are established and known. Even though they aren't/are popular, their history, or the history behind the character's name can be known from either DC or Marvel's own website or one of their biga$$ info books. It's just easier, and possibly to market a established superhero name, even if the one wearing the costume is a new character. Take Firestorm for example; one of the better transitions I think.


Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Originals vs the Legacies
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2008, 07:43:59 pm »
Well, its hard for the big two to create brand new main characters, that would have a nice backing enough to stand on their own. Take Gravity for example. It bombed, even though it was a brand new character without any ties to any pre-existing Marvel character. However, a lot of Marvel and DC characters that were created back in the 60's, 70's and 80's, those character names are established and known. Even though they aren't/are popular, their history, or the history behind the character's name can be known from either DC or Marvel's own website or one of their biga$$ info books. It's just easier, and possibly to market a established superhero name, even if the one wearing the costume is a new character. Take Firestorm for example; one of the better transitions I think.

Well, I'm not necessarily saying that "Legacies" are always bad.  Sometimes they make perfect sense like John Stewart or War-Machine.  Others replace characters long dead, like Deathlock, Triatholon and Mr. Terrific.  But uggghhh, Firestorm.  As a major fan of Ronnie, I don't like the new Firestorm.  Maybe don't like is too strong, but I want Ronnie back.  (On a similar note, the new Blue Bettle is so different from Ted Kord, that there was no reason to kill the old to bring in the new.) 

But there have been other new characters that have popped up and that might very well be working.  Pixie and Armor on X-men, Ronin, Echo, Sentry, all of Runaways. 
« Last Edit: August 23, 2008, 07:47:10 pm by KIP LEWIS »

Offline TripleX

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Re: Originals vs the Legacies
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2008, 08:47:05 pm »
I wasn't aware that Triathlon was a legacy hero.
What was the first one all about?

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Originals vs the Legacies
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2008, 09:40:50 am »
I wasn't aware that Triathlon was a legacy hero.
What was the first one all about?

Triathlon became a legacy hero, unwittingly.  The first was 3-D Man (a hero from the 50s)  and he was captured by the leader of the Triune Understanding.  He stole the power from the original and modified the power a little and gave it to Triathlon.  He even put Tri in a costume that was based upon the 3D Man costume. 

And nowadays, Tri has dropped his name and version of the costume and went to wearing the 3D Man costume and name.

Offline Hypestyle

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Re: Originals vs the Legacies
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2008, 12:35:25 pm »
I liked Triathlon's original outfit & staff-- red, black, green.. but now he looks like a christmas ornament now in the old 3D man getup.. ah well...
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Offline Catch22

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Re: Originals vs the Legacies
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2008, 12:57:28 pm »
I'd say the race-switching trend is actually dying down.  These days, they're more apt to change the gender of characters...the Question, Loki and Ultron come to mind.  Heck, with the Question they got two for one!  I think that's going to happen more and more...especially in the DCU with the intro of the Milestone characters.  I personally think both trends represent a desire for diversity in comics, but at the same time, it can alienate those comic fans abhorrent to change.  It can also be seen as a creatively cheap and lazy way to introduce minority characters into comics.  Hey...let's kill insert-lesser-known-character-here and replace him with a Black Guy.  And in terms of continuity...The Truth Cap would be the original and Steve Rogers the legacy.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Originals vs the Legacies
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2008, 02:14:57 pm »
I'd say the race-switching trend is actually dying down.  These days, they're more apt to change the gender of characters...the Question, Loki and Ultron come to mind.  Heck, with the Question they got two for one!  I think that's going to happen more and more...especially in the DCU with the intro of the Milestone characters.  I personally think both trends represent a desire for diversity in comics, but at the same time, it can alienate those comic fans abhorrent to change.  It can also be seen as a creatively cheap and lazy way to introduce minority characters into comics.  Hey...let's kill insert-lesser-known-character-here and replace him with a Black Guy.  And in terms of continuity...The Truth Cap would be the original and Steve Rogers the legacy.

Good eye on the male to female thing.  Maybe that is the new trend. White Tiger is another one.  But yeah, the Truth Cap thing is funny.  Publishing wise, STeve it the original, the rest are legacies; but in continuity, Truth Cap is the original.  Same thing happened to Wonder Woman.  Diana has become the legacy and her mother is the original, even though her mother became WW after Diana, but she cheated by traveling back in time. 

Offline Wise Son

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Re: Originals vs the Legacies
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2008, 06:17:45 am »
I think that's going to happen more and more...especially in the DCU with the intro of the Milestone characters. 
Well, originally, both Hardware and Icon were going to have a gender-swap if their respective series had carried on - Icon by using his pod's capacity for genetic reconfiguration (presumably in order to maintain his secret identity by assuming the identity of the next member of the Freeman family) and Hardware by recruiting Technique to take the Hardware name and work for him.

Also, I think the new Firestorm gets too much grief, when Ronnie's death was always going to be part of Identity Crisis before anyone had the idea of the revamp. I agree it was a rubbish way to kill him, but I do think that the new version has plenty of potential.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 06:19:52 am by Wise Son »

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Offline Wise Son

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Re: Originals vs the Legacies
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2008, 06:22:16 am »
I liked Triathlon's original outfit & staff-- red, black, green.. but now he looks like a christmas ornament now in the old 3D man getup.. ah well...
I think Busiek said that he actually designed the Triathalon outfit, but only intended it to be a rough conceptual sketch for the artist, who then very faithfully reproduced it in the comic.

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Offline JLI Jesse

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Re: Originals vs the Legacies
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2008, 09:48:23 am »
Publishing wise, STeve it the original, the rest are legacies; but in continuity, Truth Cap is the original. 

Then the question becomes, are you actually a legacy if you are unaware of anyone coming before you?  Steve became Cap for his country and had no idea anyone came before him.

Offline Francisco

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Re: Originals vs the Legacies
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2008, 12:03:08 pm »
I herd somewhere that the truth was retconed so Steve Rogers is still the original Captain America. The Truth still happened but according to current continuity it happened after the events that lead Steve Rogers to become Captain America. It seems the experiments that gave Elijah Bradley his super soldier powers were an attempt to replicate the experiment that gave Steve Roger his.
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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Originals vs the Legacies
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2008, 04:32:48 pm »
Publishing wise, STeve it the original, the rest are legacies; but in continuity, Truth Cap is the original. 

Then the question becomes, are you actually a legacy if you are unaware of anyone coming before you?  Steve became Cap for his country and had no idea anyone came before him.

In this particular thread, my initial comment is whether or not the Big Two are creating minority legacy characters more than original minority characters.  So, for this, we're looking at it from the publishing pov, rather than the in-story point of view. From the publishing pov, Steve has 60 years on Truth Cap.

Offline Catch22

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Re: Originals vs the Legacies
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2008, 04:36:17 pm »
I herd somewhere that the truth was retconed so Steve Rogers is still the original Captain America. The Truth still happened but according to current continuity it happened after the events that lead Steve Rogers to become Captain America. It seems the experiments that gave Elijah Bradley his super soldier powers were an attempt to replicate the experiment that gave Steve Roger his.

Francisco's right.  I was wrong.  Isaiah Bradley, in the last two issues of the Truth series, was said to be a result of an attempt recreate the science that created Steve Rogers. 

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Originals vs the Legacies
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2008, 07:25:48 am »
I herd somewhere that the truth was retconed so Steve Rogers is still the original Captain America. The Truth still happened but according to current continuity it happened after the events that lead Steve Rogers to become Captain America. It seems the experiments that gave Elijah Bradley his super soldier powers were an attempt to replicate the experiment that gave Steve Roger his.

Francisco's right.  I was wrong.  Isaiah Bradley, in the last two issues of the Truth series, was said to be a result of an attempt recreate the science that created Steve Rogers. 

Huh?