Author Topic: The Civil War Discussion  (Read 124252 times)

Offline Rollo_Tomasi

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Re: The Civil War Discussion
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2006, 04:38:20 pm »
Hey guys!  I care about Marvel's civil war saga.  Raises interesting issues.  Certainly care about IT a lot more than getting sucked into one of these "never resolve anything" geopolitical merry-go-rounds.  Talk about a waste of time.

Only problem I have with the Civil War story so far is that a couple of things don't make sense. 

First, there was NO REASON for Spider-Man to reveal his identity publicly -- all he was required to do was the register with the government. That made NO sense at all. 

The second thing that makes no sense is to have Captain America parrot what appears to be Bendis' own political views regarding the evil corporations with a most condescending description of the American People of the sort typically expressed by self-proclaimed "progressive" elitists, but not at all typical for a WWII hero like Captain America (see New Avengers #21).  Remember, Cap was "defrosted" now in the 1990s or so (they moved him up with the revised time line) so he is still a guy raised with the attitudes of an American in the early 20th century ... and most folk back then, certain most traditionally patriotic folk, did not harbor those kinds of attitudes (which were reserved more for the Socialist/Marxist crowd back then ... which Steve Rogers definitely was NOT).  I still have some problems with the whole Cap role, but I would feel better about if it was done in a more reasonable way -- without him parroting the views of the comic book authors (which just sounds sooooo stupid).

You can't apply logical timelines to Captain America's defrosting. He has enough history that they reference for him to have been active prior to the 1990's. He's been out longer than that. Also, going back at least as far as Steve Englehart, Steve Rogers has always been a staunch opponent to excessive government power, and the inevitable abuse of that power. If you want to read about a fascist Captain America, read The Ultimates. I'm sure you'll find him more to your liking.

Quote
Note that it is NOT Cap opposing registration that seemed absurd to me in New Avengers #21 (I'm coming to terms with that, though I think it could have been presented in a somewhat more nuanced way).  It was his spouting on about the "corporations" etc... that made the character to me look like a mere mouthpiece of Bendis.  Here is what he read Captain America "thinking" in a rather self-indulgent and condescending Bendis discourse: 

This is where I'd like to remind everyone that the first President to really curtail far-reaching corporate power was Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican. And the first man to warn America of the so-called "Military-Industrial Complex" and the havoc it could wreak was Dwight Eisenhower, another Republican. Steve Rogers is a man from Eisenhower's era.
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Offline Rollo_Tomasi

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Re: The Civil War Discussion
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2006, 04:39:14 pm »
ANTI-REGISTRATION !!

i prefer a lot of crazies in colorful costumes acting for their own will, better than serving the bush administration!! or the goverment of turn!!

just imagine with the registration, the next day all the superheroes are going to be supporting israel in their massacre against Lebanon because their boss BUSH says it.

Something like this already happened in the Ultimates Vol. 2. Just sayin'.
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Offline Lucas_Cage

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Re: The Civil War Discussion
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2006, 06:31:19 pm »
The essential tie-ins IMO are Amazing Spider-Man(this week's issue jumped ahead of #3!),FF and New Avengrs.

Offline zulu801

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Re: The Civil War Discussion
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2006, 06:52:11 pm »
I'm gonna share a POV about Tony Starks / IM and give me your VP.

I'm reading ASM tie-in to CW and yep my first thoughts were sellout to the powers that be (US).  Now I am acting like a fanboy that has not read a lot of IM (just w/ CW and ASM) and I am pissed off with him.  BUT...... after doing some reasearch in reading about TS / IM and POV from other HEF members (which avg fanboys do not indulged in reasearching info about characters)  I am not on IM side within CW, BUT I believe his position as pro-reg is much more than what is written (at this time) in CW.  Yep, he was a soilder in the armed forces and former sec of defense.  Basicly he still has inside intel of gov't activites and was the first (of course) to know about SHRA.  I am going to take this position as my reason for IM siding for pro-reg:  he is being a pawn in the big chess game in uncovering major corruption within the US gov't and the only way to find out is to become an agent of the gov't, like he is right now.  Tony is too smart of a man and rich as hell to completely sellout, BUT right now he gotta play the role.

gotta go, wife is callin me.... holla back

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Re: The Civil War Discussion
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2006, 07:09:54 pm »
Hey guys!  I care about Marvel's civil war saga.  Raises interesting issues.  Certainly care about IT a lot more than getting sucked into one of these "never resolve anything" geopolitical merry-go-rounds.  Talk about a waste of time.

Only problem I have with the Civil War story so far is that a couple of things don't make sense. 

First, there was NO REASON for Spider-Man to reveal his identity publicly -- all he was required to do was the register with the government. That made NO sense at all. 

The second thing that makes no sense is to have Captain America parrot what appears to be Bendis' own political views regarding the evil corporations with a most condescending description of the American People of the sort typically expressed by self-proclaimed "progressive" elitists, but not at all typical for a WWII hero like Captain America (see New Avengers #21).  Remember, Cap was "defrosted" now in the 1990s or so (they moved him up with the revised time line) so he is still a guy raised with the attitudes of an American in the early 20th century ... and most folk back then, certain most traditionally patriotic folk, did not harbor those kinds of attitudes (which were reserved more for the Socialist/Marxist crowd back then ... which Steve Rogers definitely was NOT).  I still have some problems with the whole Cap role, but I would feel better about if it was done in a more reasonable way -- without him parroting the views of the comic book authors (which just sounds sooooo stupid).

You can't apply logical timelines to Captain America's defrosting. He has enough history that they reference for him to have been active prior to the 1990's. He's been out longer than that. Also, going back at least as far as Steve Englehart, Steve Rogers has always been a staunch opponent to excessive government power, and the inevitable abuse of that power. If you want to read about a fascist Captain America, read The Ultimates. I'm sure you'll find him more to your liking.

i'm sure michaelintp is going to love that fascist captain america version .

Offline Toya

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Re: The Civil War Discussion
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2006, 08:56:26 pm »
Zulu,

I can see what your saying. I've seen someone else say that this whole thing is a conspiracy.



But, how does anyone see Cap "winning" this thing unless he runs for government and innudates congress with his supporters?

I am inclined to say that he doesn't care if he goes down, maybe he cares that he goes down fighting. It maybe cliche but I can see that.
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Offline Rollo_Tomasi

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Re: The Civil War Discussion
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2006, 08:58:59 pm »
Keep in mind, I call him "Fascist Cap" for fun, and because a friend of mine who is a huge Cap fan absolutely hates Ultimate Cap. Actually, lots of traditional Cap fans hate Ultimate Cap. But I'm not sure he's a fascist. Thuggish, perhaps. But his heart is in the right place, and I'm not sure yet whether or not he really deserves the moniker of "fascist". He helped put Thor down because he believed that Thor was crazy and had hurt people...he put his trust in the wrong place, and eventually it bit him in the ass when he was framed as well. As for beating up Hank Pym....Hank had it coming. I was behind him all the way with that one.

But he does maintain an uncomfortably close relationship with the military, considering he's a super-hero. On the other hand, that's more or less seen as normal in the Ultimate universe. And keep in mind that The Ultimates and Civil War are written by the same guy (Mark Millar)
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Offline Open palm

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Re: The Civil War Discussion
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2006, 09:07:03 pm »
Keep in mind, I call him "Fascist Cap" for fun, and because a friend of mine who is a huge Cap fan absolutely hates Ultimate Cap. Actually, lots of traditional Cap fans hate Ultimate Cap. But I'm not sure he's a fascist. Thuggish, perhaps. But his heart is in the right place, and I'm not sure yet whether or not he really deserves the moniker of "fascist". He helped put Thor down because he believed that Thor was crazy and had hurt people...he put his trust in the wrong place, and eventually it bit him in the ass when he was framed as well. As for beating up Hank Pym....Hank had it coming. I was behind him all the way with that one.

But he does maintain an uncomfortably close relationship with the military, considering he's a super-hero. On the other hand, that's more or less seen as normal in the Ultimate universe. And keep in mind that The Ultimates and Civil War are written by the same guy (Mark Millar)

I'm with you there. I despise Ultimate Cap, but the overall concept of Ultimates isn't bad. It's logical that a government would create its own superhero group and it's logical that Cap would follow orders to the letter. Anything else is John Wayne B.S.
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Offline Rollo_Tomasi

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Re: The Civil War Discussion
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2006, 09:13:23 pm »
I liked Ultimate Cap throughout year one of the Ultimates. I savored that ass whooping he layed on Hank Pym, and while the "real" Cap would never have kicked Bruce Banner while he was down like that, it was a gut reaction from a guy who is much less refined than "our" Cap. He is, for better or worse, John Wayne with a superpowers. You can't expect the two to act like...it's like expecting Hyperion (the one from Supreme Power) to act like Superman.
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michaelintp

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Re: The Civil War Discussion
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2006, 11:11:44 pm »
Note that it is NOT Cap opposing registration that seemed absurd to me in New Avengers #21 (I'm coming to terms with that, though I think it could have been presented in a somewhat more nuanced way).  It was his spouting on about the "corporations" etc... that made the character to me look like a mere mouthpiece of Bendis.  Here is what he read Captain America "thinking" in a rather self-indulgent and condescending Bendis discourse: 
This is where I'd like to remind everyone that the first President to really curtail far-reaching corporate power was Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican. And the first man to warn America of the so-called "Military-Industrial Complex" and the havoc it could wreak was Dwight Eisenhower, another Republican. Steve Rogers is a man from Eisenhower's era.
Quote

Interesting points.  Not bad.  Hmmmm.
Though in the quote Cap also bashes the American people as being a bunch of dunces.  That seems a bit outta character to me.

... and YES, I LOVE the Ultimate Cap.  I respect Millar's writing -- particularly as to the Ultimate Cap character -- as I would guess that the character does NOT parrot Millar's geopolitical views.  A good writer allows the character to have his or her own identity apart from the author.  I think some of the post-Vietnam writers who "used" Cap to advance their own agendas did so because they did see Cap as an American Icon, an American Symbol to exploit-- instead of as a fictional character who should have an existence independent of the author's views.  Millar has instead remained true to the character he has crafted -- and what he has crafted has a much stronger ring of truth (in painting a man from the WWII Era).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 11:41:02 pm by michaelintp »

Offline Open palm

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Re: The Civil War Discussion
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2006, 11:30:21 pm »
I'm more of a G.I. Joe fan. So Ultimate Cap doesn't fit my view of a perfect soldier. He is however, the perfect living weapon.
Do you prefer a hero who will confirm your deepest fears? Or a hero who will inspire faith in humanity and goodness?

Offline Rollo_Tomasi

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Re: The Civil War Discussion
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2006, 11:45:08 pm »
Note that it is NOT Cap opposing registration that seemed absurd to me in New Avengers #21 (I'm coming to terms with that, though I think it could have been presented in a somewhat more nuanced way).  It was his spouting on about the "corporations" etc... that made the character to me look like a mere mouthpiece of Bendis.  Here is what he read Captain America "thinking" in a rather self-indulgent and condescending Bendis discourse: 
This is where I'd like to remind everyone that the first President to really curtail far-reaching corporate power was Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican. And the first man to warn America of the so-called "Military-Industrial Complex" and the havoc it could wreak was Dwight Eisenhower, another Republican. Steve Rogers is a man from Eisenhower's era.
Quote

Interesting points.  Not bad.  Hmmmm.
Though in the quote Cap also bashes the American people as being a bunch of dunces.  That seems a bit outta character to me.

... and YES, I LOVE the Ultimate Cap.  I respect Millar's writing -- particularly as to the Ultimate Cap character -- as I would guess that the character does NOT parrot Millar's geopolitical views.  A good writer allows the character to have his or her own identity apart from the author.  I think some of the post-Vietnam writers who "used" Cap to advance their own agendas did so because they did see Cap as an American Icon, an American Symbol to exploit-- instead of as a fictional character who should have an existence independent of the author's views.  Millar has instead remained true to the character he has crafted -- and what he has crafted as a much stronger ring of truth (in painting a man from the WWII Era).

I see the regular Captain America as the embodiment of American ideals in their truest form. He is a patriot, a man of action, and a humanitarian. He opposes  America doing anything that is beneath her, so to speak. He encourages Americans to stand for ideals, rather than settle for what they are told is necessary. He is a true hero.

Ultimate Captain America is a good soldier. A better one than Steve Rogers, perhaps, because he does not question his orders, makes no moral judgements about the actions he is told to undertake, and undertakes his duties with a gusto and joy for violence that "regular" Cap just doesn't have. It's like the difference between Batman and Midnighter.

I also find it ironic that you like Millar's take on Captain America...I had always assumed that he would be offensive to Republicans, kind of like a neo-conservative sambo, as it were. Subtlety is not Mark Millar's hallmark, and with year two of the Ultimates he took Cap in a much more strongly authoritarian direction...he's still cool and badass, but his inability to question the situation he's in until it's all but too late is disappointing, to say the least. And in general, Cap (and the Ultimates, by extension) are being used to make a rather unsubtle allegory for imperialism. Yes, he's the more conservative-friendly Captain America, but he's also the less sympathetic Captain America, the one that long-time comic fans keep calling a "jack-booted thug". I prefer the Cap that walks the line between freedom and order, you know?

As for Cap bashing Americans as being dunces...well, let's be realistic for a moment. Our educational system's performance is laughable compared to other developed countries, we are well known internationally for our jingoism, xenophobia, and outright ignorance of any place not within our own borders, and more than half of eligible Americans can't even be bothered to participate in the democratic process. Even in the 2004 election, much ballyhooed as being so horribly divisive and hotly contested...we couldn't break the 50% eligible voter mark. "Dunces" seems like a mild way of putting it.

I've always appreciated Brian Bendis' portrayal of Captain America in his comics...his brief appearances in The Pulse and Daredevil showed a lot of class, and really displayed why Steve Rogers is the man in the Marvel U. He's a decent man, and a good friend. I haven't read New Avengers yet, but I doubt Bendis suddenly forgot how to write Captain America. I have noticed previously, on the old board, that you have a tendency to find fault in works simply because they part ways with your political beliefs. And that is well within your rights...but it doesn't have anything to do with the actual quality of the work. People get the two confused too often.
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michaelintp

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Re: The Civil War Discussion
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2006, 11:52:24 pm »
Yep, I know what Millar is doing, with the stereotype thing.  It just cracks me up, that's all.  I love USAgent too -- and he's even more over the top that way. I actually thought Ennis' original Nick Fury Max book was hilarious for the same reason, even though I've not enjoyed a lot of other stuff that the guy has written.  So yep, I can see the humor in these things.  Even if I disagree with the author's perspective.

Offline Rollo_Tomasi

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Re: The Civil War Discussion
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2006, 12:03:37 am »
Like I said, I prefer the nuanced Cap. The Cap who represents, IMO, the Real America. The people in the middle, trying to navigate what's right without veering too far into right-wing or left-wing ideology. The polarization has become ridiculous now. People just don't act that way in real life. Just because someone cares deeply about the environment doesn't mean that they are soft on crime. People who are anti-abortion aren't necessarily going to be in favor of massive corporate handouts and glad-handling of white-collar criminals. But because of our two-party system, once you've taken a side on one issue, you're stuck with the whole banana. It doesn't work.

Personally, I think if you took the platforms of the Green and Libertarian parties you'd probably come closer to what most Americans believe than the Democrats and Republicans.

But I digress. I still find it funny that you enjoy good 'ol Fascist Cap. The snarky comments are too obvious, so I'll leave them alone for now. :)
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Offline Wise Son

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Re: The Civil War Discussion
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2006, 04:24:00 am »
Yep, I know what Millar is doing, with the stereotype thing.  It just cracks me up, that's all. 
I get you. "Do you think this 'A' stands for France," is a hilarious line, even though it represents a lot of what people like me dislike about Bush's America.

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