FIRST STEPS TOWARD A-LIST

[Seven]

Let’s focus on the use of his super senses; a power he has had since the begining and part of the a gift from the Panther god. This power is always underused or totally misused. If this is what seperates the SSF and the HSH then it should be explored more.

Because of the Heart Shape Herb T’challa (and Shuri) should have meticulous perception at all times, noticing to a terrifying degree the minutiae that others miss. A Black Panther’s Sight, Hearing and Smell at superhuman levels used in tandem with centuries to form its uses into a discipline used by all Black Panther should be a force to be reckoned with….

…And when combined with T’challa genius and analytical abilities he can do what he does best, scheme, plan and be 2 to 3 steps ahead of his friend and enemies. Mr. Hudlin showed some of this during Civil War, when T’challa stiffed Sue Storm to see if she was lying.

Moreover, they should be able variations in a person's voice and tiny reactions should allow T’challa (Shuri)  to deeply understand that person's emotional state, opening the doors for him (or her) manipulate it. Politically this make a ton of sense; all the Black Panthers have a training discipline to use this power, and is maybe part of the reason that the Royal line has lasted this long. It's hard to get over on them.

The Black Panther should be able to detect whether someone is lying by detecting intonation and change in a person’s voice, observing and interpreting their body language and analyzing physical signs like pulse and heart rate. So their training of this Panther- super sense-super power with centuries of Wakandan Royal Dynasties Developing this ability this as a treatise would allow them to use it both politically and martially.

Martially, T’challa (or Shuri) would be able to see the very slightest movements and slight changes in body language, hear minute changes to a person heart rate, smell fear and/or aggression, hear slight movements like tensing of muscles.

Think “Lie to Me and “the Mentalist” (how the treatise works and the practical use of the powers ) meets Ultraviolet (Use of the powers in action).  

There was a scene in Ultraviolet which shows how super-senses can and should be used. It showed the people looking normal if through the movie goers eyes... then howed the world through her (Ultraviolet who is basically a vampire) eyes, small and hearing. It was totally different, in slow motion you could now see fear, panic, racing heart rates of the people trying to kill her.




That's what this power should be like.

[KIP LEWIS]

JM<< jonathanmaberry:Sorry...let me rephrase that:  "Doom is no longer the FF's exclusive property.  Reed may have hated him longer, but T'Challa has lost more to him, and his family is never going to let Doom skate." >>

Definitely can see that, but I don't think Reed has ever hated Doom; pities him yes, but not hate. 

Though I think there is an interesting difference between the two relationships.

Doom sees T as a rival, a barrier to his plans.  So, he will simply  kill T with a blast.

Reed is different.  Doom doesn't see Reed in the same light.  Doom doesn't need to beat Reed, he needs Reed to say, "Master, you are smarter than me.". That is why Doom will never try to kill Reed like he did T.  He makes traps to prove his superiority.  Doom needs Reed's acknowledgement, where he doesn't feel the need to prove anything to T.

(Of course this gives T'challa a great advantage.  To throw Doom off his game, all he has to say is, "Reed would have built a better trap.". Doom will lose it.

[Seven]

First, before you read this, please note that some may take offense to the quote below. This person is a racist and a bigot. This is just one example of him posting nonsense. The sad part is when you see others agreeing with this nonsense. I believe personally that there is a huge group of comic readers who feel this way. Not in this manner(being racist), but their view of the character.

This is why I made this thread. Why my first post on this board was about T'challa needing a upgrade... that is clearly explained and enforced...being critical to him becoming A-list.

For whatever reason, T'challa fighting people and beating them who are shown to be more powerful does not fly in the same way that Batman does it. I mean, Batman is seen as badass because he is human and can beat on metahumans, including punch out Superman. That = Bruce being badass...for T'challa though it's totally different. Even Dwayne McDuffie said that on this very board. For some reason when it comes to T'challa, it's not acceptable.

So this is why fans who see the same things are big on him just being upgraded. as a means to finally get past this nonsense.

I'm not just talking about fights. Although there are several characters he has either screwed over or been mismatched with [Surfer, Wolverine, Karnak, Super Skrulls, Iron Man, Zombies etc]. Its also that he gets elevated to some kind of bad man status in terms of interactions. His nation is isolationist. It means nothing. So why would he be anything in diplomatic circles? Its things like putting him on a level with Doom, Illuminati, Blackbolt, Heralds. He shouldn't be in stories with these people unless its him getting owned.   What i was getting at with the Frogs and tech was that its a get out of jail free card like Batman with his various crap. It further compounds the Affirmative Action. It lets them put him in ridiculous situations against people so they can boost his profile and have a way out with some cruddy plot device, rather than making him fight people in his own league and win in an understandable way.Those pictures also reminded me of how they seemsto elevate his personality over others. When has Karnak ever been cocky like that? Thats just not in his character. Why is he made out to seem an idiot just because he is going up against BP? Same sort of thing in Civil War. Rhodes was made to look like some Uncle Tom House Negro whilst Black Panther became Black incarnate. Whats that about?   BP is always being elevated at the expense of others, just to make a black hero seem on par with white characters. Which is a shame.  "

Again, he's a moron, but there are a lot of morons...some are those who are not as idiotic, but just don't respect the character because of his powerlevel. They don't take the character serious and write the character off when he does something grand.

[CKW]

Where was T'Challa's first appearance in comics? What did he do in his first appearance in comics? The moment he bested the FF he earned the right to run in their league. You cannot be elevated to a position when you are already there. They forgot that so Priest and Hudlin had to remind them.

[Seven]

Where was T'Challa's first appearance in comics? What did he do in his first appearance in comics? The moment he bested the FF he earned the right to run in their league. You cannot be elevated to a position when you are already there. They forgot that so Priest and Hudlin had to remind them.

I agree. Both Priest and Hudlin (and McDuffie, Aaron and now Maberry) all write T'challa as the guy from Fantastic Four Issue #52. However, the 80's really hurt the character. Apperances out side the book with writers who didn't understand him, or writers just writing him down, hurt the character.

I personally know where is at. It's just that will it ever be accepted. T'challa will never in my opinion get the slack that Steve Rogers or Bruce Wayne has without non-readers raising hell, giving the book bad press, rumors and all the b.s in between.

Hell, while I think the marriage was a bit rushed...the actually book, the actuall story arc was fine. It was very enjoyable, and entertaining. Yet if you hear what is said, you would think it was the worst written comic ever.

But what I’m saying is that you have heroes like Batman and Captain America that have feats that surpass there level. You will never hear anyone bitch about Steve taking on the Hulk. Yet if T’challa does it…there is a melt down.

Moreover, T’challa taking on Wolverine is blasphemy to these folk. The arc when T’challa move too fast for Wolverine and throws him is something that should not be an issue right? Captain America goes toe-to-toe with Wolverine all the time…yet when T’challa does the same it’s an issue.

So I’m saying that giving him a very visible upgrade where there is no mistake to his power level will go a long way to quite this B.S.

[KIP LEWIS]

The difference I see between Batman and Black Panther are 2 fold; the first is calling BP, "Marvel's Batman."  That forces the comparison and one of the conventions of comics is that the original is better than the copies.

The other issue is that Batman has been number one for 80 yrs.  BP on the other hand was written as a 2nd rate character for his first 20 yrs of his existence (after his first appearance).  For someone to turn around and say, "he is first rate" well, history doesn't support that and reconning history doesn't change what is in people's books.

[Seven]

The difference I see between Batman and Black Panther are 2 fold; the first is calling BP, "Marvel's Batman."  That forces the comparison and one of the conventions of comics is that the original is better than the copies.

The other issue is that Batman has been number one for 80 yrs.  BP on the other hand was written as a 2nd rate character for his first 20 yrs of his existence (after his first appearance).  For someone to turn around and say, "he is first rate" well, history doesn't support that and reconning history doesn't change what is in people's books.

I agree.

That's why I always supported him getting a physical upgrade. So a superhuman T’challa is no longer like Batman, being just a human fighting people way above him. This is something that has not worked at all.

T’challa is super human and Batman is Peak human is a great difference to have. Then, Batman can be compared to someone else like Moonknight or something. While they have differences (like T’challa being a king for example), they also have a big physical similarity, being a polymath,both being rich, both being a prep masters and chess players…these things are very, very similar.

Adding the mystical stuff removes that.

[KIP LEWIS]

Plus the power upgrade isn't a recont, it's an evolution of the character.  It is like Nova.  He was a third rate character, but now he is first rate (though not an A-lister), but he got there through Wartime experience and an Upgrade.  Doomwar could give T, the same redefining moment.

[Seven]

Plus the power upgrade isn't a recont, it's an evolution of the character.  It is like Nova.  He was a third rate character, but now he is first rate (though not an A-lister), but he got there through Wartime experience and an Upgrade.  Doomwar could give T, the same redefining moment.

Lets hope. I thought Marvel missed the boat with SI.

[4sake]

First, before you read this, please note that some may take offense to the quote below. This person is a racist and a bigot. This is just one example of him posting nonsense. The sad part is when you see others agreeing with this nonsense. I believe personally that there is a huge group of comic readers who feel this way. Not in this manner(being racist), but their view of the character.

This is why I made this thread. Why my first post on this board was about T'challa needing a upgrade... that is clearly explained and enforced...being critical to him becoming A-list.

For whatever reason, T'challa fighting people and beating them who are shown to be more powerful does not fly in the same way that Batman does it. I mean, Batman is seen as badass because he is human and can beat on metahumans, including punch out Superman. That = Bruce being badass...for T'challa though it's totally different. Even Dwayne McDuffie said that on this very board. For some reason when it comes to T'challa, it's not acceptable.

So this is why fans who see the same things are big on him just being upgraded. as a means to finally get past this nonsense.

I'm not just talking about fights. Although there are several characters he has either screwed over or been mismatched with [Surfer, Wolverine, Karnak, Super Skrulls, Iron Man, Zombies etc]. Its also that he gets elevated to some kind of bad man status in terms of interactions. His nation is isolationist. It means nothing. So why would he be anything in diplomatic circles? Its things like putting him on a level with Doom, Illuminati, Blackbolt, Heralds. He shouldn't be in stories with these people unless its him getting owned.   What i was getting at with the Frogs and tech was that its a get out of jail free card like Batman with his various crap. It further compounds the Affirmative Action. It lets them put him in ridiculous situations against people so they can boost his profile and have a way out with some cruddy plot device, rather than making him fight people in his own league and win in an understandable way.Those pictures also reminded me of how they seemsto elevate his personality over others. When has Karnak ever been cocky like that? Thats just not in his character. Why is he made out to seem an idiot just because he is going up against BP? Same sort of thing in Civil War. Rhodes was made to look like some Uncle Tom House Negro whilst Black Panther became Black incarnate. Whats that about?   BP is always being elevated at the expense of others, just to make a black hero seem on par with white characters. Which is a shame.  "

Again, he's a moron, but there are a lot of morons...some are those who are not as idiotic, but just don't respect the character because of his powerlevel. They don't take the character serious and write the character off when he does something grand.

I agree...

[KIP LEWIS]

I wonder if part of BP's acceptence as an A-lister  is the old adage, "if you have to say something is cool, it isn't.".

Before CP, RH, and now JM, no one really was going around saying, BP is the coolest/the number one bad a$$.  He was a niche player with some fans.  He was tough, but Cap and Wolvie were tougher.

The CP shows us, reconts/reinterprets his back story, and his fans and some writers are saying, "he's cool! He's the toughest one there is! He's an A-lister!"

And the rest of comicdon is thinking,  "if you have to tell me he's cool, he isn't."

No, I don't think this is the only issue.  But there was no effort beyond regular advertising to make Spidey cool; he simply was.  Same with Wolvie.  A large segment of the audience individually  decided he was cool, then he was.  (I say "individually" because there was no internet movement connecting them.)  Or Daredevil.  People liked Frank Miller's DD and suddenly the book was hot.  Let me rephrase that; a lot of people liked FM's DD and it became famous.)

This is where the internet I think has become an barrier.  When people got excited about FM's DD, the buzz spread the old way; in the store.  One person said to another, "you got to read this!".The other person did and the reading hooked them, or it didn't, then they discussed it on a small scale.  (The only large scale connection pushing popularity was the skyrocketing back issue market.) But with CP's DD, you saw something different.  One fan writes on-line,  "read this!"  Then a fifty page war starts between people trying to convince the other side,  "cool"/"not".  And unlike the old days, where a debated only lasted as long as you are in the store, now it lasts years.

Perhaps internet debates invokes the adage, "if you have to say it's cool, it ain't."

[Vic Vega]

Marvel's push of T'challa was incomplete as he wasn't featured in any team book or minis when he was being pushed.

He hasn't been a member of ANY Avengers team since Johns was on the book

He sat out being in the Illuminati(for good reason-but the end result is that Panther was not in a hot book).

His particpation in Civil War was mainly shown in his own book.

He was defending his own country in Secret Invasion. Again out of the larger fanbase's eye.

Contrast that to Marvel's push of Ms. Marvel.

She's been part of The Mighty Avengers and is a New Avenger now. She's had face time and a major speaking role in all the major Marvel miniseries recently.

And she's a recurring character on the SuperHero Squad show.

Now her comic is about to get cancelled but I'm pretty sure they will relaunch it.     

Now Panther actually sels better than Ms. Marvel(#10 showed a circulation of about 37,000 for the Black Panther) but she's in the eyes of the fans more.

[KIP LEWIS]

Ms. Marvel is indication of what I am talking about.  Marvel tried to say "she's cool".  They wanted her to be their flagship female character.  And despite it all, the fans still prefer Emma.  They killed Ms. Marvel, no one cared.  They brought her back, no one cared.  Her back issues didn't skyrocket in price.  She's on Marvel Superheroes and mostly she sounds like a school teacher. 

Emma on the other hand became popular because one (cool) writer wrote her in a new way and suddenly, she's the number one female.

[Vic Vega]

Ms. Marvel is indication of what I am talking about.  Marvel tried to say "she's cool".  They wanted her to be their flagship female character.  And despite it all, the fans still prefer Emma.  They killed Ms. Marvel, no one cared.  They brought her back, no one cared.  Her back issues didn't skyrocket in price.  She's on Marvel Superheroes and mostly she sounds like a school teacher. 

Emma on the other hand became popular because one (cool) writer wrote her in a new way and suddenly, she's the number one female.

What the fans say they like on the net is one thing. what actually sells is another.

They tried giving Emma a book and it didn't last 10 issues.

50 issues isn't bad for a female character in this crappy market.

Rogue and Jubilee each couldn't get past the 25 issue mark. Storm probably can't sell a solo period.

But Carol did get the face time T'Challa is lacking IMO.

[Seven]

Well said. Both of you bring up great points.

Vega, Doomwar seems like a very big start. A HUGE start in my opinion…. I’m still kind of shocked that it is happening. Kudos to Mr. Hudlin for laying the ground work to get Doom versus T’challa. Also thanks to Mr. Maberry for doing a bang up job, taking this book to the next level.

37 k?  Awesome.

Tom Breevort says that there is going to be a status quo change in the avengers and MU. Maybe T’challa, Storm and Shuri are a part of his new status quo? Joe Quesada has noted that joining the avengers in a possibility.

K.I.P, I agree with you totally. I don’t want to be told how cool T’challa is…that is a failed formula. CJP had to do this story telling that way during his run to repair the damage that was done before him by other writers. It’s nearly repaired…now it’s time to see T’challa in action. Only that will fix and help the character.

Wakanda, a technologically advanced African nation steeped in tribal tradition, hardly qualifies, and, the race of the character notwithstanding, the cool aloofness and formal Big Talk successive writers created for him inspired less curiosity as disinterest. As often as not, The Black Panther came off more boring than mysterious.

It seemed to me, as a reader, the writers simply didn't know what to do with this man who had no super-powers, no snappy dialog, no berserker rage and no obvious character faults to capitalize on. Over the years, Panther became a sideshow.

---Priest

Really, I think that T’challa is a great character, but the only way to make him A-list, and get new fans is a well crafted story, and FEATS. I will continue to say it. Besides a great story, cool feats draw readers in.
Both Spiderman and Wolverine have great feats. So kids see these scenes and think wow. Spiderman is awesome, and wow, Wolverine is cool. With the Panther, the constant outsmarting does not give a great visual.

Wolverine is said to only lift 800 pounds, but his feats are *never* limited to that. He is shown as being extremely fast and agile. He has no limitations. This is way I thought he was cool. He had powers, was a tough guy that could heal from anything, and claws, was a samurai, etc, etc… we were not only told, but we saw it on panel.

So to me that 1 ton upgrade is great…if it’s shown. T’challa was noted as being as fast and agile as the Beast (so he should be faster now with the upgrade) this needs to be shown. This in my opinion is the door to T’challa taking on a Wolverine and a Spiderman in a straight out fight with no explanations. In the same way that Wolverine can match Spiderman in agility.



Maberry and Marvel are giving us this moment. T'challa vs Doom.

Hell we also have Shuri vs Namor...these are the showings that these characters needs.
But Marvel is going need these showings outside of the Panther book.

I still would love to see Jason Aaron use T'challa in his Wolverine: Weapon X book. Also well as some sort of mini crossovers with FF/Secret warrior with Heickmen (sp?) and Aaron on Wolverine. R. Reminder on Doctor Voodoo.

This book is on the right track. T'challa is on the right track, so I'm very happy.