Author Topic: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.  (Read 46086 times)

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2010, 12:27:42 am »
I criticized Bush for 8 long years.  I never said "the tree of liberty needs to be watered with the blood of patriots" or whatever that crazy quote was from the Tea Baggers.  They carry guns to public events.  They are all about creating a violent atmosphere and it's no secret. It's disengenious to act otherwise. 

These guys get away with acts so brazen its astonishing to me.  They should be swept up in a huge arrest, but of course that would make them martyrs to the cause.  But so many of them skirt treason on a regular basis.

michaelintp

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2010, 07:09:22 am »
I criticized Bush for 8 long years.  I never said "the tree of liberty needs to be watered with the blood of patriots" or whatever that crazy quote was from the Tea Baggers.  They carry guns to public events.  They are all about creating a violent atmosphere and it's no secret. It's disingenuous to act otherwise. 

These guys get away with acts so brazen its astonishing to me.  They should be swept up in a huge arrest, but of course that would make them martyrs to the cause.  But so many of them skirt treason on a regular basis.

Dissent, particularly when expressed in active public protest, is inherently "dangerous" in the eyes of those who are in power. 

"Treason" ... "They should be swept up in a huge arrest" ...?  On my gawd.  How often, and from whom, have we heard such sentiments expressed in the past. Reginald, do you realize how totalitarian you sound?

What you are doing is trying to attribute the act of a lunatic (Joseph Stack) to a group of people that he had nothing to do with. Stack's manifesto did not praise the Tea Party Protesters. The manifesto that Stack quoted from was, in fact, the "Communist Manifesto." 

There is no evidence that Joseph Stack had anything to do with the Tea Party Protesters.  To the best of my knowledge, he was not one of them, he did not attend their events, and he did not communicate with them.  (If I am mistaken in this regard, and he was in fact a Tea Party Activist, operating openly or clandestinely, please share that information with me and everyone else on the forum.  Seriously, I would be interested to see the evidence.)

So instead you blame them, by saying that these protesters are creating a "dangerous atmosphere."  Well, one could also argue that the election of a man like Barack Obama, who forged strong and early political relationships with ("former") domestic terrorists (Ayers) and international terrorist sympathizers (Wright), itself undermined efforts to discourage terrorism, by suggesting that terrorism is understandable and forgivable if the end justifies the means.  One could assert that it is disingenuous to claim otherwise.  ... particularly when we are talking about a deranged anti-Bush anti-capitalist domestic terrorist who obtains his inspiration from the Communist Manifesto.

Would I make such an argument? No. I would not. But then, I'm not blaming those Americans who are today exercising their right to publicly protest (the destructive course our Government is taking) for the insane self-destructive violent murderous act of Joseph Stack either.

... oh, and by the way, I happen to be a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment. Better sweep me up too.  ;)

Offline Battle

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2010, 07:32:35 am »
Quote
... oh, and by the way, I happen to be a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment. Better sweep me up too. ---michaelintp



I would love to sweep you and the boston tea party goon squad out of the picture but I don't have the authority.

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2010, 07:33:33 am »
To be clear, I think sedition is the concept in question instead of treason.
Sedition: incitement of discontent or rebellion against a government.
This has historically been a gray area with regard to the 2nd amendment.

I think it is clear that Reggie was talking about the fringe element that can certainly be interpreted as breaking the law with regard to carrying weapons at public gatherings and so forth. I think it equally clear that most people are not seriously equating the entire movement as full of nutcases.

Folks do seem to be concerned about the racist and extremist elements that are undeniably present in society and seem to be finding some means of expression in the Tea Party movement; I know I am. I would be able to hear the Tea Party movement better if they were more careful about disassociating themselves from extremists. Michael, you made similar points about President Obama's alleged associations during the election.
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
"Be hard on systems, but soft on people."

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2010, 07:37:22 am »
I would love to sweep you and the boston tea party goon squad out of the picture but I don't have the authority.

And isn't it fortunate that you don't. Nobody should have that kind of authority.
And really, they have just as much right to express an opinion as we all do. That's our bedrock.
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
"Be hard on systems, but soft on people."

michaelintp

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2010, 08:08:21 am »
...  I think it equally clear that most people are not seriously equating the entire movement as full of nutcases.

Well, I believe that most on the Left (and in the Mainstream Media) would like to do just that. There are many who, for their own ideological reasons, are doing just that. 

That is why they immediately presented Stack as one of them, before doing their homework.

Of course I don't support sedition or treason.  Above I said that those involved with organizations and groups (on the Right or the Left) that advocate violence against the Government or our citizens need to be monitored.  I should emphasize, I believe they need to be very closely monitored (probably at a level, and using means, that you would be uncomfortable with).

The "Tea Party Protest" movement, and folk similarly expressing strong concern, even outrage, over the insane growth of Government (and all that implies for the rights of the Individual and for our future), have a message to get out.  They have been pretty successful in conveying that message to a large number of undecided voters in the middle.  Query whether a lot of in-fighting would be productive in that regard.  You suggest it might be, to disassociate the broader group from the radical fringe.  As you say, the same could be said regarding more moderate Liberals and folk on the Left, most of whom instead chose to pound their anti-conservative message.

Offline Battle

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2010, 08:50:13 am »
Not every citizen in America is guided by a political ideology like these nuts and sees every issue as political as if on a radio band (left or right) or projects thier principles on everyone else (liberal or conservative) like these humps do...  they want peace and quiet.  People will see these demonstrations as trouble and potential violence.

If these nut cases continue this course of action with the public rallying, public protesting, the yelling on the radio, the screaming, bringing weapons and sh*t, the strategic acts of terrorism, and everything linked to these public gatherings... pretty soon there will be rioting, then someone will get killed, then another person will get killed and so on and so on...
all because they lost a presidential election in the fall of 2008.

That's what this is about. >:(

Offline Catch22

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2010, 10:02:54 am »
It's not just that they lost the election.  For many of them, it's who won.  Most of the people in the Tea Bagger /Anti-Tax "Movement" vote and protest against their best interests anyway.  I may be mistaken because I don't know anyone who's a Tea Bagger (hahaha), but since taxes have been lowered for over 90 percent of working families...under Obama, no less...what exactly are they protesting?  My guess is they don't know.  It's all about what Rush said or what was on FoxNews this morning.  Parroting whatever these so-called commentators say.  For some it may be about taxes, but for the greater majority, with their signs and slogans, it's about something else.  The guy who flew into the IRS building OWNED A PLANE!  My friends and I make pretty good coin and there's not a plane owning pilot among us.  Since they're parroting RushNews, I'll go ahead and parrot Bill Maher from the other night...

Only 2% of the people in a “movement” about taxes named after a tax revolt have the slightest idea what’s going on…with taxes.
 ;D

Offline Battle

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2010, 10:15:04 am »
It's not just that they lost the election.  For many of them, it's who won.  Most of the people in the Tea Bagger /Anti-Tax "Movement" vote and protest against their best interests anyway.  I may be mistaken because I don't know anyone who's a Tea Bagger (hahaha), but since taxes have been lowered for over 90 percent of working families...under Obama, no less...what exactly are they protesting?  My guess is they don't know.  It's all about what Rush said or what was on FoxNews this morning.  Parroting whatever these so-called commentators say.  For some it may be about taxes, but for the greater majority, with their signs and slogans, it's about something else.  The guy who flew into the IRS building OWNED A PLANE!  My friends and I make pretty good coin and there's not a plane owning pilot among us.  Since they're parroting RushNews, I'll go ahead and parrot Bill Maher from the other night...

Only 2% of the people in a “movement” about taxes named after a tax revolt have the slightest idea what’s going on…with taxes.
 ;D



100% agree.

I say...

Get that fat fukk off the &#%$-ing radio before somebody else gets killed!!! >:(

OK...? 
As a warning, there are consequences to opposing the American government in such a manner and if I were them, I certainly wouldn't do it with a Black president who can speak softly with a big stick.

Offline BmoreAkuma

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2010, 10:37:59 am »
Not every citizen in America is guided by a political ideology like these nuts and sees every issue as political as if on a radio band (left or right) or projects thier principles on everyone else (liberal or conservative) like these humps do...  they want peace and quiet.  People will see these demonstrations as trouble and potential violence.

If these nut cases continue this course of action with the public rallying, public protesting, the yelling on the radio, the screaming, bringing weapons and sh*t, the strategic acts of terrorism, and everything linked to these public gatherings... pretty soon there will be rioting, then someone will get killed, then another person will get killed and so on and so on...
all because they lost a presidential election in the fall of 2008.

That's what this is about. >:(
exactly I am one of those people. However I think it would take something like the deaths of a number of people in one rally for people to think back on how silly this is. Frustrated or not what you are doing is very uncomfortable for people who just want to live their lives and not being worried about anything. This is life sh*t happens you as a person have to deal with it adapt and move the f*ck on with your life

BTW I am a person that supports the 2nd as well but Im not stupid to have a gun walking around in public where they are children around for my "2nd admendment right"
With these choices, I felt that the American black man only needed to choose which one to get eaten by; the liberal fox or the conservative wolf because both of them will eat him.

michaelintp

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2010, 08:59:11 pm »
Well guys, you are trivializing the bona fide concerns of the protesters and other conservative critics who are concerned where our country is headed. It is not just about taxes, though if anyone really believes taxes will be reduced over the long run, given where we are headed, they're smokin' something. Depending on where you live, you might already be working as a servant half of each year "for" the Federal, State, and Local Government (when all taxes, including sales and property taxes, are taken into account). Which is outrageous. Because, at some point, it becomes little more than state sponsored theft, tyranny by the majority.

However, the concern is much broader, and far more fundamental. It is the insane increase in the size of government, reach of government, and power vested in government. And expansion of that power into every facet of our lives. This can only have a long-term destructive effect, on our psychological independence, our self-reliance, our willingness to give to charity, and our very liberty.  

And more than that ... from an economic perspective, it is a suicidal course. We cannot sustain this. We will implode. The debt will be too great, the costs of carrying that debt unsustainable.  

It is important to look beyond today's immediate gratification, to the long-term welfare.  The future of our a nation is at stake. The future of our children, and their children, are at stake. Will they have to pay the price for our selfishness and short-sightedness?

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2010, 09:52:14 pm »
You mean invasive government like the Patriot Act?

Did you, in a previous post, bring up the inconsequestial Bill Ayers while defending tax protestors who want to kill the president because they are too stupid to realize he LOWERED their taxes? 

The violent, racist elements of the Tea Baggers is not the fringe of the movement.  It's the face.  And until they denounce the violent acts of their sympathizers, why should anyone think otherwise?

Even the mainstream Republican Party has become a cyncial obstructionist organization bereft of any idea that Reagan didn't think of (well, that's not true...Reagan was AGAINST torture). 

I have my complaints about Obama...he's ignoring his mandate.  People want change, and they don't care about 59 or 60 votes. 

michaelintp

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2010, 11:07:56 pm »
Reginald, I have to disagree. What you are repeating are the charges made by those who wish to discredit the critics. I understand that, as a tactic, this may be a somewhat effective tool to convince some people to discount the protesters. However, I see it as little more than that. A tactic. I don't doubt your sincerity, but I do think this tactic has influenced your perception.

My impression is that most of the protests have involved opposition to "socialism" (broadly defined) and costly proposals for State-controlled healthcare and the threat of ever-increasing taxes. On these scores, the protesters are 100% correct. "Non-discretionary" entitlement programs will over the long term financially destroy this country (with our children and their children left holding the bag). The Tea Party Protesters are correct to point the finger at Republicans as well as Democrats. Bush was no fiscal conservative, nor was he interested in lessening the scope and power of government.  Obama is clearly an advocate for a massive and ever-expanding central government. Leading the intrusion of government into even more aspects of our lives. At a price that is, just in financial terms, incomprehensible.

Now, when it comes to matters of national security, including combatting terrorist threats (from the Left and the Right or from those motivated by other ideologies), we differ. I see this as a part of the primary responsibility of the Federal Government to provide for the common defense. This is one of the only clear areas in which the Federal Government must play a central role. Particularly in our age of high technology, in both communications and weaponry.

As I see it, the basic problem is that virtually all of our elected officials, both Republicans and Democrats, focus only on a short-term time horizon -- at most, to the next election.  And, as a culture, we have become more self-absorbed as well, which also increases the focus on "gratification today" no matter the consequences tomorrow (to our kids and their kids). The problems I am describing will really come to a head in a couple of decades. At which point it will be too late.

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2010, 12:46:01 am »
from the HUFFINGTON POST:

Will Bunch
Author, "Tear Down This Myth"
Posted: February 22, 2010 10:06 PM

Why Won't They Use the "M-Word" About Joe Stack?

Vernon Hunter -- murdered in Joe Stack's suicide attack in Austin. Tex., last week -- was a real American hero:

In the hours that followed, Ken said he heard lots of talk about the pilot's motivations and felt compelled to speak out on his father's behalf.
"There was just too much going on about what the guy did and what he believed in, and enough's enough," he said. "They don't need to talk about him. Talk about my dad. You know, some people are trying to make this guy out to be a hero, a patriot. My dad served two terms in Vietnam. This guy never served at all. My dad wasn't responsible for his tax problems."

The Hunter family identified Vernon Hunter's body Saturday. That same day, as Ken drove to his father's home, he saw firsthand the destruction the small plane caused.

"We turned the radio down, almost off, and we just looked. No one said anything and we just kept coming in. My wife almost broke down, so it was tough," he said.


Hunter was a guy who fought for his country in Vietnam and went to work for it when he came home; he had a loving family who cared about him very much. And then he went to work one morning and he was murdered in cold blood by a narcissistic loser named Joe Stack. And yet some of our nation's so-called political leaders are refusing to criticize Stack, the murderer of Vernon Hunter.

The latest is a U.S. congressman, Steve King of Iowa. Here's what he said:

I don't know if his grievances were legitimate, I've read part of the material. I can tell you I've been audited by the IRS and I've had the sense of 'why is the IRS in my kitchen.' Why do they have their thumb in the middle of my back. ... It is intrusive and we can do a better job without them entirely.
It seems so outrageous, and yet King is hardly alone. Two of the most egregious example include whacked-our far-right Texas gubernatorial candidate Debra Medina, who said this weekend that Hunter's killer reflects "the hopelessness many in our society feel," and of course Massachusetts pin-up guy Scott Brown, who said that Stack's suicide attack is a sign that voters "want transparency" in government.

First of all, what the (expletive deleted)?

Second of all, aren't these the same people who jump all over anybody who calls an al-Qaeda or Taliban thug a "murderer" instead of a "terrorist," even though at the end of the day that's what even the people who bombed the World Trade Center were -- low-life, no-good killers, a notion that even Republicans understood back in Reagan's day? But now these same people refuse to condemn Joe Stack, let alone call him what he really was: A cheap, heartless murderer.

The one thing that's clear from Stack's vain and nonsensical "manifesto" is that the man was not insane, just an egomaniac who gave no thought to the innocent person he was about to kill, to that man's family or even his own family that he left behind to deal with the mess...after he burned them out of their home. The only insane people here are the ones who call Joe Stack a hero. He wasn't a hero. He was a coward. To see Joe Stack as something more than a two-bit killer is the greatest case of adding insult to injury that I have ever seen.

michaelintp

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2010, 07:38:26 am »
I wholly agree that anyone who would view this killer to be a "hero" is twisted.  I think the article is overstating the matter of Stack being viewed as a "hero" though.  I"ve not heard a lot of proclamations of heroism for Stack. The author of the article clearly has a political agenda. 

Of course many are concerned about excessive taxation (etc) but the people who hold such views have nothing to do with the murderer Stack and his sick act. To the extent anyone (on the Left or the Right) tries to associate the two, they are dead wrong.

I would assume the people who would actually view Stack as a "hero" are the same fringe extremists who thought Timothy McVeigh was a hero, or other domestic terrorists are heroes. Not many. Most blogs I saw bear this out.  Responses written by Conservative bloggers and writers tried to portray Stack as a Leftist, not one of their own.  The overwhelming vast majority of commentators on the Right, including very Conservative folk, were disassociating themselves from Stack.  Not proclaiming him a hero.

Stack, burning down his own house and crashing his plane into a building was, most likely, nuts though. (Given his apparent lack of past affiliation with any activists, fringe groups, etc ... it sounds like the guy just cracked and went "postal" so to speak, engaging in a sick twisted terrorist act of attempted mass murder that killed one man, Vernon Hunter).  I would reconsider this if, of course, evidence emerged that he did regularly communicate with purveyors of some sick ideology (etc), coordinated with others, shared his views with those others, etc. 

I agree with the rest of the article.  Particularly what it says about Vernon Hunter.