Author Topic: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.  (Read 46159 times)

Offline Battle

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2010, 08:16:23 am »
michaelintp, here is what I think:

The entire history of America has always been a insatiable desire to advance itself or move forward. Your objections to the Obama Administration has very little to do with conservatism, and more about a percieved  irrational, fear that your rights and/or priviledges are eroding away  or... ...or you may not have the ability to adapt to societal changes. Well, to me, not wanting to adapt is a sign of immaturity.
 
How is American society to fulfill its destiny of advancement when you behave as if it is an inconvenience to you?

As I said before, you are not a conservative because by definition, I would be considered conservative yet you and I do not share the similar interests, politically.  Why is that? 

michaelintp

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #76 on: March 18, 2010, 09:17:50 am »
How is American society to fulfill its destiny of advancement when you behave as if it is an inconvenience to you?

The belief in the rights to "Life, Liberty and Property" ... are immature?  OK, I get it.  :P

Battle, "advancement" ... is not the inevitable march toward Socialism, the march vesting greater and greater economic power in the Central State, dictating the decisions that Individuals must make and expropriating greater and greater amounts of property from the Individual in the process for purposes of income redistribution (to both individuals and entities). Nowadays "socialism" has become a naughty political word, but in the past people were not ashamed of it and did not have a problem advocating socialized medicine and the like. Now all we hear are strained euphemisms.


As I said before, you are not a conservative because by definition, I would be considered conservative yet you and I do not share the similar interests, politically.  Why is that?  

Um ... because you are most definitely not a Conservative.  ;D

Offline Battle

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #77 on: March 18, 2010, 09:38:37 am »
How is American society to fulfill its destiny of advancement when you behave as if it is an inconvenience to you?

The belief in the rights to "Life, Liberty and Property" ... are immature?  OK, I get it.  :P

Battle, "advancement" ... is not the inevitable march toward Socialism, the march vesting greater and greater economic power in the Central State, dictating the decisions that Individuals must make and expropriating greater and greater amounts of property from the Individual in the process for purposes of income redistribution (to both individuals and entities). Nowadays "socialism" has become a naughty political word, but in the past people were not ashamed of it and did not have a problem advocating socialized medicine and the like. Now all we hear are strained euphemisms.


Oh, stop with the 'socialism' spiel! >:(

I've heard it all my life. You never , ever hear this dribble from anyone other than from people like you. What has happened since the reagan era is when there is too much 'excess' and 'greed' and usually from one segment of people with too much 'Life, Liberty..."  ...and No, Property is not mentioned in the preamble.  Too much of one thing is never good.
Modern economics, according to its textbook defintion, studies the allocation of resources under the conditions of 'scarcity', not excess.

Can you do more with less?

...and don't tell me what I am not!
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 09:40:11 am by Battle »

michaelintp

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #78 on: March 19, 2010, 05:50:40 pm »
How is American society to fulfill its destiny of advancement when you behave as if it is an inconvenience to you?

The belief in the rights to "Life, Liberty and Property" ... are immature?  OK, I get it.  :P

Battle, "advancement" ... is not the inevitable march toward Socialism, the march vesting greater and greater economic power in the Central State, dictating the decisions that Individuals must make and expropriating greater and greater amounts of property from the Individual in the process for purposes of income redistribution (to both individuals and entities). Nowadays "socialism" has become a naughty political word, but in the past people were not ashamed of it and did not have a problem advocating socialized medicine and the like. Now all we hear are strained euphemisms.


Oh, stop with the 'socialism' spiel! >:(

I've heard it all my life. You never , ever hear this dribble from anyone other than from people like you. What has happened since the reagan era is when there is too much 'excess' and 'greed' and usually from one segment of people with too much 'Life, Liberty..."  ...and No, Property is not mentioned in the preamble.  Too much of one thing is never good.
Modern economics, according to its textbook defintion, studies the allocation of resources under the conditions of 'scarcity', not excess.

Can you do more with less?

...and don't tell me what I am not!

"Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" is the phrase from the Declaration of Independence, not the Preamble to the Constitution.

The concept of Man's natural right to "Life, Liberty and Property" comes from the classic "Liberal" thinkers of the 17th and 18th Centuries, most notably John Locke. 

I guess, by that standard, I should become irate if someone does not view me as a "Liberal."  ::)

And ... for most folks, we can only do less with less. That's the meaning of "less." But of course, that is not the real political issue. The real issue has now become the patronizing query, "Can I do more with your less."  I think you can predict the answer, from the standpoint of the recipient (who did not earn the income that is being expropriated after many years of difficult education and hard work).1 This comment pertains to the corruption of our democratic political process, alluded to above.

Battle, after all of our years of interacting on the HEF, never in my wildest dreams did I imagine that you would become upset because someone on the Forum dared to assert that you are not a Conservative.  I'm sorry, but this is just cracking me up. ;D

1 By these comments I don't mean to undermine the value of charity. As I have demonstrated for years on this forum, I strongly support charitable giving and the moral obligation one has to help those in need. We are not talking about charity here. We are talking about government compulsion, under threat of fine or imprisonment.  Forced expropriation of income and property to "spread the wealth around" actually serve to undermine the charitable impulse, by eliminating the sense of personal responsibility one has for one's fellows. Because the attitude is fostered that "the Government will take care of it."

Offline Battle

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #79 on: March 20, 2010, 07:44:24 am »
Battle, after all of our years of interacting on the HEF, never in my wildest dreams did I imagine that you would become upset because someone on the Forum dared to assert that you are not a Conservative.  I'm sorry, but this is just cracking me up. ;D

1 By these comments I don't mean to undermine the value of charity. As I have demonstrated for years on this forum, I strongly support charitable giving and the moral obligation one has to help those in need. We are not talking about charity here. We are talking about government compulsion, under threat of fine or imprisonment.  Forced expropriation of income and property to "spread the wealth around" actually serve to undermine the charitable impulse, by eliminating the sense of personal responsibility one has for one's fellows. Because the attitude is fostered that "the Government will take care of it."


I think you've been reading too many legal briefs.

It's 'allocate  resources'  not 'spread the wealth'.

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #80 on: March 20, 2010, 11:05:38 am »
Michael, to wrap up the conversation we were having:

I like the Olberman piece. That doesn't mean I endorse everything in it. I like that he speaks directly about the racial element that is, to me, clearly a significant part of the Tea Party movement. That doesn't mean that everything they say is motivated by racial prejudice, just that race is a factor in the perceptions of the people involved and the manner in which they express themselves.

Furthermore, I find the denial of race as a factor either delusional or disingenuous. Race underlies nearly everything in the US yet we don't discuss it or even acknowledge it most of the time. No wonder we as a nation have so little skill in talking about race.

"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
"Be hard on systems, but soft on people."

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #81 on: March 20, 2010, 05:51:48 pm »
This is from GAWKER, via the Huffington Post, so I'm sure you'll dismiss it as left wing propaganda:

Tea party protesters, on Capitol hill to rail against healthcare reform that will benefit them, and stoked up by speeches from Republican lawmakers, unleashed abuse and spit against black and gay members of congress.

The Huffington Post report that thousands of gathered protesters abused Representatives James Clyburn and John Lewis, both veterans of the civil rights movement. The latter had the word 'nigger' shouted at him. Rep. Emanuel Cleaver was spat on. When Rep. Barney Frank, report Talking Points Memo, "rounded a corner to leave the building, an older protestor yelled "Barney, you faggot." The surrounding crowd of protestors then erupted in laughter."

"It was absolutely shocking to me," Clyburn told the Huffington Post. "Last Monday, this past Monday, I stayed home to meet on the campus of Claflin University where fifty years ago as of last Monday... I led the first demonstrations in South Carolina, the sit ins... And quite frankly I heard some things today I have not heard since that day. I heard people saying things that I have not heard since March 15, 1960 when I was marching to try and get off the back of the bus."

michaelintp

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #82 on: March 21, 2010, 12:13:25 am »
The benefit of my checking in, now and again, to the HEF is to be exposed to news stories such as this. Thank you.

Yes, this conduct is disgusting, and those individuals who engaged in it are despicable. 

In addition, such individuals undermine the credibility of those sincere persons who are opposed to the current massive expansion of government power and control. In terms of substance, I agree with the concerns expressed by many involved with the Tea Party Movement, as well as many Republican Members of Congress, editorialists for the Wall Street Journal and many others.

Anyone who has read my posts above, who is honest, will acknowledge that I've not denied that some people opposed to the policies of the Adminstration are in part motivated by race.  My point has always been, however, that many more are not. The serious concerns of people like myself, regarding the proper role of Government vs. the Individual, cannot and will not be dismissed.

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #83 on: March 21, 2010, 12:37:00 am »
I hear your denunciation loud and clear, Michael.

Here's what I don't get.  What is Obama doing that's more encroaching on our civil liberties than the Patriot Act?

michaelintp

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #84 on: March 21, 2010, 09:33:10 am »
The PATRIOT Act, passed by an overwhelming majority of Democrats and Republicans in Congress, in reality affects very few people. It's purpose was to apply measures similar to fighting organized crime to fighting terrorism. International and domestic terrorism are real threats, like it or not. Their was a uproar regarding what it might do, who it might effect, etc ..., but did it affect you, me, anyone on the Forum, directly?  Or did it result in terrorists being caught?  It is the duty of the Federal Government to provide for the common defense, against enemies foreign and domestic.

What free spending Republicans and Democrats in the past and what Obama and the Democrats are doing today, with their revolutionary plan to expand the economic scope and reach of the Government, will affect EVERYONE. When the Government takes over matters in our economic lives, dominates areas affecting our very bread and butter, increasingly restricts what every American can and cannot do, while ordering every American to do certain things merely by reason of their being citizens, by massively increasing the per capita amount of National Debt that we and our children will have to bear now and in the future to fund these programs, and similarly by dramatically increasing the deficit that will inevitably lead to massive increases in the expropriation of income and property (by way of direct taxes and and fees and other devices as well as business taxation and regulatory measures that will increase costs to consumers), by doing all these things, by moving the nation more toward Socialism, we will ALL be affected, like it or not. We will become more dependent on the Government. We will have less control over our own property (that we are allowed to keep). Our incentive to produce and to work will be diminished. Businesses will be negatively affected, new business development (who are the providers of non-Government jobs) will be hampered and long-term economic development will be slowed or reversed.  The free enterprise system will be undermined.

Inherent in all this, our individual liberty will be diminished.

Sure, the USSR had the KGB and before that the NKVD.  But is that how the Soviet Government really controlled the mass of the population?  No. The real way the population was controlled was by the Government dominating every aspect of people's economic lives, turning every citizen into a slave of the state.  The Soviet Union finally fell apart because it could not economically sustain itself (in large part due the economic pressures caused by U.S. defense programs that they felt compelled to try to keep up with but could not afford).  

I'm not saying that Obama will turn the USA into the USSA, but what I am saying is that the massive expansion of Government Power in all the realms described above is destructive on many levels.  It will undermine what distinguished the United States from much of the rest of the world. Neither the former Soviet Block, nor the Western Europeon Socialists, should be viewed as our role models.

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #85 on: March 21, 2010, 09:44:32 am »
Here what Bruce Bartlett has to say about the Tea Partiers:

Quote
The Misinformed Tea Party Movement
For an anti-tax group they don't know much about taxes
On March 16 the tea party crowd showed up for yet another demonstration on Capitol Hill in Washington. Curious about the factual knowledge that these people have regarding the issues they are protesting, my friend David Frum enlisted some interns to interview as many tea partiers as possible on a couple of basic questions. They got 57 responses--a pretty good sized sample from a crowd that numbered between 300 and 500 people. (Survey results are here.)
 
The first question that was asked concerned the size of government. Tea partiers were asked how much the federal government gets in taxes as a percentage of the gross domestic product. According to Congressional Budget Office data, acceptable answers would be 6.4%, which is the percentage for federal income taxes; 12.7%, which would be for both income taxes and Social Security payroll taxes; or 14.8%, which would represent all federal taxes as a share of GDP in 2009.
 
Not everyone follows these numbers closely and tea partiers may have been thinking of figures from a few years ago, before the recession when taxes were higher. According to the CBO, the highest figure for all federal taxes since 1970 came in the year 2000, when they reached 20.6% of GDP. As we know, after that George W. Bush and Republicans in Congress cut federal taxes and they fell to 18.5% of GDP in 2007, before the recession hit, and 17.5% in 2008.
 
Tuesday's tea party crowd, however, thought that federal taxes were almost three times higher than they actually are. The average response was 42% of GDP and the median was 40%. The highest figure recorded in all of American history was half those figures: 20.9% at the peak of World War II in 1944.


http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/bruce-bartlett/1592/ignorance-bliss-tea-party-crowd

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #86 on: March 21, 2010, 09:46:16 am »
Most people will have the same health program that they have.  But for people who don't have health insurance, they will be covered.  How is that Big Brother?  

Meanwhile, the government asserting the right to listen in our conversations, arrest us without any checks and balances, all that gets a pass from you.

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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THE RIGHT STIFLES DEBATE by Christopher Buckley
« Reply #87 on: March 21, 2010, 10:49:22 am »
THE RIGHT STIFLES DEBATE
by Christopher Buckley

from THE DAILY BEAST

Now, the GOP is grousing that Obama has appointed former Sen. Alan Simpson—a Republican!—to a blue-ribbon deficit-reduction panel because he’s too “moderate.” Christopher Buckley on the latest Washington circus.

The New York Times and Wall Street Journal report that Rush Limbaugh, Grover Norquist, and Larry Kudlow, inter alia, are in a lather over Simpson, whom they view as a—brace yourselves—moderate Republican who might actually end up endorsing tax increases as a way out of the pit that we have dug for ourselves. The horror, the horror.

The last big commission recommended that we get the f--- outta Iraq. What happened? The surge.

At the same time, there are rumblings in the fever swamps of the left over the appointment of Erskine Bowles to the commission. Bowles was President Clinton’s chief of staff back in those good old days. He was instrumental in enacting the 1997 balanced-budget amendment that actually produced a budgetary surplus. (Remember that brief, shiny moment?) The lefties are worried that he might propose trimming entitlements, Social Security, Medicare. Gasp. Shudder.

When the going gets tough in Washington, presidents appoint “blue ribbon” commissions. It’s their way of saying, “OK, OK, since no one here can agree on anything, why don’t we bring in some grownups and see what they think?” This is generally followed by a wink-wink. “And if we don’t like what they recommend, we’ll just tell them, ‘Thanks, Gramps’ and send them back to the golf course.”

Not much ever really comes of commissions, really. The last one that really came up with something truly concrete was the Warren Commission, and for all its good work, most Americans persist in believing that Oswald was working in tandem with the CIA, FBI, Lyndon Johnson, and the John Birch Society.

The last big commission was the Iraq Study Group. It was chaired by James Baker and Lee Hamilton, the wisest of the wise men. Its Republican members included Sandra Day O’Connor, Ed Meese, and—what do you know?—Alan Simpson. Simpson seems to have become a first-responder wise man. For the Democrats, there were Leon Panetta, now head of the CIA, Vernon Jordan, and Chuck Robb. It doesn’t get more establishmentarian than that.

What did they recommend? Essentially: that we get the f--- outta there.

What happened? The surge.

And so it goes with blue ribbon commissions. Thank you. You have done a great service to the country. Don’t forget to turn out the lights on your way out.

I don’t mean to be flip, really. But if you live in Washington and see these commissions come and go, it’s hard to avoid becoming a little skeptical.

What’s different this time, however, is the fervor with which some on the right are going after Simpson, in an attempt to pre-empt any proposal he might eventually make on the subject of the most critical issue facing our country: the national debt.

It reminds one a bit of the endless debates leading up to the Vietnam Paris peace talks about what shape the table ought to be. If Democrats cannot agree on a centrist like Bowles, and Republicans cannot agree on a consensus-seeker like Simpson, then, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the final chapter in the American experiment. William Butler Yeats, please call your office.

The third rail of Democratic politics is cutting spending. For Republicans, it’s raising taxes. I’ll let Democrats defend spending our grandchildren broke on entitlements. As for the Republican third rail, one or two thoughts, the first being that we ought, really, to cut it out and get real.

Reagan raised taxes, repeatedly, but let’s not go there. Instead, let’s take two recent presidential models: Bush 41 and Bush 43.

Bush 41, faced with a recession, rising debt and a war, contravened his own body-part-specific campaign pledge and raised taxes. Say what you will about the politics of it—unwise, and not well-handled—it was the gutsy thing to do.

Bush 43, also faced with a recession, rising debt and not one but two wars, cut taxes. And here we are, rapidly going broke and an annual—annual—deficit running at $1.6 trillion. (Trillion being the new billion.) Is it necessary to say that Republican caterwauling about Barack Obama’s deficit incontinence is, really, just a bit much?

Apropos the attacks on him by the Rush Limbaughs and the conservative blogosphere, the folksy, good-humored Simpson told the Times, “Go ahead, keep babbling into the vapors. I’m not out to raise taxes but, for God’s sake, if these dizzy guys can’t figure out that this country...” The reporter noted that here Mr. Simpson “trailed off.” Who wouldn’t? But he got back on the trail quickly enough, with the bracingly direct remark that “I don’t believe we ever had a war where we didn’t have a tax to finance the war.”

So suppose, say, that the commission were to end up proposing something as straightforward as that Obama, having chosen to commit America to continuing engagement in Afghanistan and Iraq, should call upon the Congress to enact a war tax to support our presence there?

Well, gosh, gentlemen, thank you for that most, uh, interesting suggestion. The nation is grateful. Don’t forget to turn off the lights.

Meanwhile, let us, Democrat and Republican alike, give thanks for Mr. Bowles and Mr. Simpson, who at this point in their lives, surely have other things to do.



Christopher Buckley's books include Supreme Courtship, The White House Mess, Thank You for Smoking, Little Green Men, and Florence of Arabia. He was chief speechwriter for Vice President George H.W. Bush, and is editor-at-large of ForbesLife magazine. His new book is Losing Mum and Pup, a memoir. Buckley's Daily Beast column is the winner of an Online Journalism Award in the category of Online Commentary.

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Right-Wing Bloggers Demand Apology From Lawmakers Called 'Nigger'
« Reply #88 on: March 21, 2010, 10:53:41 am »
Right-Wing Bloggers Demand Apology From Lawmakers Called 'Nigger' By Tea Partyers

Yesterday a bunch of Tea Party anti-healthcare protesters called black and gay lawmakers 'nigger' and 'faggot'. Today the right-wing blogs want an apology — from the lawmakers, to the protesters.

Glenn Reynolds, at Instapundit, targeted his ire at James Clyburn, the Congressman and veteran of the civil rights movement. (The capitals, inevitably, are his.) "DOES CLYBURN OWE TEA PARTY PROTESTERS AN APOLOGY? The bogus racism card has been played so often that I no longer find such charges very credible. I'm sure, however, that, true or not, they'll be played much more loudly than the indisputably true statements about the antiwar movement."

Conservative blogger Ann Althouse is more magnanimous and forgiving of the lawmakers. She doesn't want them to apologise. But she does feel that "it's outrageous for them to pose as victims without very good cause. So what if some idiot said a bad word?"

Meanwhile GOP chairman Michael Steele and House Minority Leader John Boehner condemned the protesters. The same protesters who they encourage and inspire with dog whistle phrases and sly hints.



Send an email to Ravi Somaiya, the author of this post, at ravi@gawker.com.

Offline Hypestyle

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #89 on: March 21, 2010, 01:03:14 pm »
at this most recent demonstration, were there 'any' racial minorities among the protestors?  if so, what's their take on sharing space with those prone to shout epithets?
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