Author Topic: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.  (Read 13849 times)

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2010, 07:41:58 am »
So, what's up with a US Congressman and a Republican candidate for governor being sympathetic to Stack?  This is what I mean when I say the nuts are not on the edge but the mainstream of the party.

michaelintp

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2010, 08:02:54 am »
So, what's up with a US Congressman and a Republican candidate for governor being sympathetic to Stack?  This is what I mean when I say the nuts are not on the edge but the mainstream of the party.

I believe your characterizatoin and that of the author of the article you posted are inaccurate, where he says the Republicans view Stack to be a "hero" and you say they express "sympathy" for him.  This is Left Wing Political Spin.  Reginald, I love you, but you are one of the most politically partisan people I know.  Anyway, time permitting, I'll look into it further, and get back to you later today.

michaelintp

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2010, 10:42:29 pm »
Are we all reasonable people here?  Does anyone really, seriously, think a United States Senator would express sympathy for the psycho Austin bomber Joe Stack, or that a Senator would publicly proclaim that Stack is a hero? Forget about partisan politics for a moment.  Even from the standpoint of cynical self-interest, would it be in the interest of a Senator to do so, vis a vis his or her constituency? Would such a proclamation enhance that Senator’s prospects for reelection? I don’t think so. (OK, one with an agenda might find someone “on the Right” who expressed such a sentiment, as there are nuts everywhere, particularly on the Internet, but really, guys ... let’s get real).

HERE IS WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON: As I thought, what we are seeing in parts of the Media and in Blogs is Left-Wing partisan/ideological spin to distort the words of Republicans like Senator Scott Brown (R-MA), in an attempt to link them to the deranged bomber Joe Stack. The article provided below interestingly even makes reference to some of the rabid anti-Conservative organizations referenced in our discussions above, responsible for these smears. Just goes to show how creative “Progressive” writers with a partisan axe to grind can do wonders with quotes taken out of context.  

Another reason for you all to look at these articles is that these pieces demonstrate the extent to which Conservative Activists do not sympathize with Joe Stack, and they certainly do not view him to be any kind of hero. As evidenced by what Senator Brown actually said, they certainly do not want that lunatic to be associated with them in any way. Though those on the Left are desperate to make the connection.

Frankly, I believe folks on the Left discredit themselves in the effort.

What all this represents is the same ugly smear politics that we’ve all grown to “love.” (urp!)

The Nation: Prominent CPAC Speakers All Sound like Joe Stack
Rusty Weiss
2/23/2010  NewsBusters
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/rusty-weiss/2010/02/23/nation-prominent-cpac-speakers-all-sound-joe-stack

We've seen the likes of Time Magazine, MSNBC, the Washington Post, and Newsweek link the Joe Stack airplane attack to the conservative movement.  But in an interesting twist, a political blogger for The Nation has inexplicably linked Stack to several players at the recent CPAC convention - including Tim Pawlenty, Scott Brown, and most notably Glenn Beck.  

Leslie Savan wastes little time delving into despicable comparisons from the onset with the title to her rant:  

Glenn Beck Dodges Incoming Plane at CPAC

From there, the associations to Stack stretch ever further.  Savan somehow manages to draw parallels between Pawlenty's comment about taking a 9-iron to big government, and the attack (emphasis mine throughout):

"Minnesota governor Tim Pawlenty strained to hit a Southern-sheriff note of populist threat by suggesting, rather oddly, that conservatives were cuckolded wives who, like Tiger Woods's spouse, should "take a 9-iron and smash the window out of big government in this country!"--thereby managing to invoke both the wall of shattered glass windows at the Echelon Building and the marital troubles that may have contributed to Stack's anger."

It would seem the term ‘metaphor' is beyond the writer's grasp.  

Next up is an out of context quote from Scott Brown:

"It didn't help the damage control when conservative pin-up Scott Brown said of the attack, just hours after it happened, "I don't know if it's related, but I can just sense not only in my election, but since being here in Washington, people are frustrated." Which is scary close to saying Stack's terrorist act came from the same set of emotions and attitudes that put Brown in office (talk about saying "No"!)."

This smear has already been argued admirably at Legal Insurrection, as it stems from a weak attempt by Think Progress to disparage Brown over his comments during an interview with Neil Cavuto.  What Savan is focusing on, the phrase "I don't know if it's related", is designed to make the reader believe that Brown himself questions if there is a link between the terrorist attack and the anger that got him elected.  Shortly thereafter in the interview however, Brown clarifies by saying, "I am not sure if there is a connection, I certainly hope not..."

The smearing of conservatives in The Nation however, had only just begun, and Savan's worst venom was being reserved for the keynote speaker at CPAC - Glenn Beck.  The first punch being thrown with:

"Whether or not Joe Stack had ever watched Fox, dug Glenn Beck, or ever darkened a website run by a Tea Party outfit (and we may never know the truth about these things, either), Beck was fast to assume that Stack's nutty tax-and-big-government-hating manifesto would tarnish Beck's own nutty tax-and-big-government-hating shtick."

First, Savan gets out in front of it, by avoiding a definitive link between Stack and Beck, but most assuredly is implying said link.

Second, Beck is wise to assume that he will be linked to Stack, as this is a tactic exercised by the liberal media ad nauseam - from the Kentucky census worker suicide, to the Alabama shooting case - despite a complete lack of evidence to support such claims.  

Savan doesn't disappoint, throwing Beck and conservative opposition into the tank with Stack:

"Of course, Stack did not fly his plane into a capitalist redoubt, like a bank too big to fail; he flew it into an IRS office, which just happens to be the focus of radical constitutionalist anger."

Never mind the Stack manifesto rails heavily against the virtues of capitalism, also a focus of constitutional anger for its rapid elimination under the current administration.

She continues...

"...Beck's daily rantings make about as much sense as Stack's suicide note."

Again, simply another attempt at linking peaceful conservative activists and pundits to the violent actions of a lunatic.  

After referring to Beck and his audience at CPAC as violence-urging cultists, the article ends with this bit of wonderment:

"Which reminds me, where's the outcry? Why aren't the rightwing media and their auditioning politicians getting hysterical over Obama taking so much time to make a statement about the IRS attack as they did over Obama's "slow response" to the Christmas bomber? I mean, Stack killed himself and another person and injured 13, two of them critically; the Nigerian guy just scorched his privates."

While both the Stack plane attack and the Christmas bomber were equally terroristic in nature, the aforementioned statement actually minimizes the Nigerian's attempt at mass murdering over 200 victims by saying hey, he ‘just scorched his privates'.  This demonstrates such a clear disconnect from reality, that Ms. Savan should probably avoid pointing fingers at Beck for his alleged ‘fairy tales'.  Pot, please meet the kettle.

As for the question posed: Where's the outcry... over Obama's slow response?  Conservative author Michelle Malkin made this statement less than 24 hours after the attack:

"You know, now would be a good time for a uniter-in-chief - an agent of hope and change in Washington - to call for civility and healing and a ceasefire on inflammatory attacks against peaceful Americans who had nothing to do with this attack. At 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, crickets chirp."

Unfortunately however, when it comes to the left wing media and a chance to exploit a crisis, there will never be a ceasefire on inflammatory attacks.

Note:  For the other articles referenced in this piece, where Conservatives make clear that they have nothing to do with the deranged Joe Stack, see the following:

Time Magazine Links Austin Suicide Pilot To Tea Party Movement
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2010/02/18/time-com-links-austin-suicide-pilot-tea-parties

Matthews' Southern Poverty Guest Ties Stack To 'Radical Right'
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mark-finkelstein/2010/02/18/matthews-southern-poverty-guest-associates-stack-radical-right


WaPo's Capehart: Austin Suicide Pilot's 'Alienation Similar To Extreme Elements of Tea Party Movement'
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2010/02/18/wapos-capehart-austin-suicide-pilots-alienation-similar-extreme-eleme

Newsweek Links Stack to ‘Right Wing Terror,’ Inexplicably Mentions Racism
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2010/02/19/newsweek-links-stack-right-wing-terror-inexplicably-mentions-racism

Reginald, and anyone else who is interested, I urge you to read these articles (they are short). They just might dispel some of your stereotypes regarding Conservative Activists (who do NOT assert allegiance to Joseph Stack).  If you really are interested in a serious dialogue, instead of falling victim to embracing unfounded smears, they may enlighten you.  

Let’s show a little decency here.  Nobody on the Right or the Left (other than some sick individuals, whom with an internet search I’m sure one could find) endorses the airplane bombing of the Austin building that housed IRS employees and killed one dedicated public servant.

I suggest that we move on. And I would hope, with this information, that in other venues no one here will be inclined to repeat the same smears.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 08:13:05 am by michaelintp »

Offline jefferson L.O.B. sergeant

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2010, 10:52:40 pm »
Are we all reasonable people here?  Does anyone really, seriously, think a United States Senator would express sympathy for the psycho Austin bomber Joe Stack.

Yes, I do.

Just look at Gov. Perry from Texas.

He is openly talking about secession from the Union.

How much farther down the road do you have to get than the Governor of a state calling for a blatant act of treason.

michaelintp

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2010, 11:31:32 pm »
Jefferson, thanks for the tip!

I'm packin' my bags and movin' to the great NATION of Texas!




                      Yippee ke-yay!

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2010, 06:52:01 am »
According to the D.O.D. Terrorism is:

Quote
The calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological


If Joe Stack doesn't fit THAT discription I don't know who does.

i've already noted Scott Brown's doltishness.

Stack's daughter Samantha Brown has characterized her father as a hero.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/22/samantha-bell-joe-stack-d_n_471491.html

Stack now has fan sites on the internet

http://weareaustin.com/content/fulltext/?cid=51571

Do I think all Conservatives are Joe Stack sympathisers? No. But there is an ugly nativist, anti-government movement in this country and I'm not hearing anybody on the right really repudiating it.

If you are going to A) doubt that the President is actual citizen, if you are going to scream about taxes after recieving the LARGEST TAX CUT IN HISTORY http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_02/016863.php I can only assume something other than a rational discussion of the issues of the day is going on here.

And that is being kind.

Still waiting for somebody in the major media to call Stack a terrorist, BTW.

P.S.: If it wasn't for the Internet I would know NOTHING about Vernon Hunter.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 06:55:16 am by Vic Vega »

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2010, 10:25:17 am »
Reginald, and anyone else who is interested, I urge you to read these articles (they are short). They just might dispel some of your stereotypes regarding Conservative Activists (who do NOT assert allegiance to Joseph Stack).  If you really are interested in a serious dialogue, instead of falling victim to embracing unfounded smears, they may enlighten you.  


Micheal, the attitude that one can easily infer from this statement right here is one of the things that annoy people about you. I state the annoyance as a fact, whether it is intentional or not; you can do with it what you will. You can't tell people they must be ignorant or unreasonable or victims to arrive at their conclusions without pissing them off. With love...seriously.

Let’s show a little decency here.  Nobody on the Right or the Left (other than some sick individuals, whom with an internet search I’m sure one could find) endorses the airplane bombing of the Austin building that housed IRS employees and killed one dedicated public servant.

I suggest that we move on. And I would hope, with this information, that in other venues no one here will be inclined to repeat the same smears.


I didn't see claims that anybody endorsed the airplane bombing. Only that some folks exploited it or attempted to. I understand that you are particularly sensitive to what you view as leftist spin as many folks are sensitive to what they perceive as rightist spin. Can we just admit that both exist? You don't seriously think conservative politicians are any less slimy than liberal ones do you? While we're on the subject, that holds for "the media" too, doesn't it? I have argued before that there is no "the" media, mainstream or otherwise, only an aggregate of media outlets that span the political spectrum in outlook. Isn't that fact too mundane to argue about?

« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 10:55:03 am by Curtis Metcalf »
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
"Be hard on systems, but soft on people."

michaelintp

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2010, 04:52:21 pm »
As to an issue some of you have raised, of Conservatives not drawing attention away from "their message" to instead attack members of the Right, I would raise the same point as to Liberals and Leftists who make every effort to "keep to their message" and not deflect attention to their own ugly fringe. "Stick to the message" is pretty much the standard operating procedure employed by politicians nowadays on both sides of the political spectrum

Offline BmoreAkuma

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2010, 05:08:15 pm »
actually micheal it is great to have your opinion/viewpoint. It brings in a different perspective. So I don't mind really.
With these choices, I felt that the American black man only needed to choose which one to get eaten by; the liberal fox or the conservative wolf because both of them will eat him.

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2010, 05:38:05 pm »
Okay, I read all the links;  none of them make any reference to the Congressman or the Republican candidate for governor mentioned in the piece I posted who each said sympathetic things about Stack's actions. 

Why did they say those things?  Why are such statements acceptable by the RNC?

michaelintp

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2010, 10:41:10 pm »
actually micheal it is great to have your opinion/viewpoint. It brings in a different perspective. So I don't mind really.


Thanks.   :)

Okay, I read all the links;  none of them make any reference to the Congressman or the Republican candidate for governor mentioned in the piece I posted who each said sympathetic things about Stack's actions. 

Why did they say those things?  Why are such statements acceptable by the RNC?


I was primarily responding to "your" article’s smear of Senator Scott Brown.  Whom, I believe, some people on the Left feel threatened by.  The articles I provided gave plenty examples of the use of selective quotes taken out of context, and distortions, as to Brown and others.  The articles I shared also show a genuine effort by Conservatives not to be tainted by Stack's horrific deed.

Also, we must realize that there are two ways of viewing Stack's horrible act: (1) as the act of a guy, previously law-abiding, who just snapped and went ballistic (because of his personal problems including tax deficiencies); or (2) as an act of "terrorism" (which literally it was, though it appears it was not an act of organized terrorism, and not even an act clearly motivated by a coherent ideology). Some of the people whom you object to might have seen it more as the former, given that it really does seem that (for whatever reason) Stack had mentally gone over the edge. Viewing him in this light does not mean that one condones what he did.

As to the Candidate and the Congressman: Neither Medina nor King expressed support for the Stack’s violent act. They do, however, apparently have negative feelings regarding the IRS, with King advocating that the income tax be replaced with a national sales tax.

In the article you posted, what was left out of the quote of Texas gubernatorial candidate Debra Medina was her express statement that she did not sympathize with Stack.  Nor did she endorse his violence or call him a hero. 

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/politics/state/stories/DN-medina_20tex.ART.State.Edition1.4bcbf02.html

As to Congressman Steve King’s remarks, I don’t see anywhere that he endorsed Stack’s act.  What he was really expressing were his personal feelings regarding the IRS based on his own experiences as a small businessman.  Still, I agree that he should have expressed himself differently, given the context.  But that is a far cry from proclaiming Stack a hero or supporting what he did.  King later explained his remarks.

“As a founder of a small business who has endured I.R.S. audits, I understand the deep frustration with the I.R.S. In the early days, my company could not run without me on the job. I once had to shut it down just to be in the room with the I.R.S. I did not get a fair shake, but I channeled my frustration the American way and ran for office. Americans looking for an outlet for their frustration should join me in calling on Congress to pass a national sales tax and abolish the current federal tax code and the I.R.S.”

http://iowaindependent.com/28640/king-on-suicide-pilot-i-understand-the-deep-frustration-with-the-i-r-s

Reginald, explain to me how their comments are more reprehensible than someone in the 1960's saying, "The Vietnam war is horrible. America is engaged in war crimes. I sympathize with the feelings of Bill Ayers. I agree that we must stop this war. But of course I do not condone his violent actions." [setting off bombs in an organized conspiracy]

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2010, 12:08:48 am »
Tea Party Leader Calls Obama "Half-White Racist"
HuffPost Citizen Reporting   |  Alex Brant-Zawadzki First Posted: 02-24-10 07:28 PM   |   Updated: 02-24-10 07:48 PM


Last September Mark Williams, a tour partner with the Tea Party Express, referred to President Obama as "our half white, racist president."

In a September email obtained by Talking Points Memo, Williams angrily responded to what he calls a "false allegation" by CNN that he called President Obama a Nazi. In an apparent attempt to demonstrate he is not racist, Williams claimed to have a strong record on civil rights. He spoke of "marching for civil rights while asshole southern sheriffs were swinging nail-studded bats as blacks's heads..."

On September 14, 2009, Mark Williams admitted to CNN's Anderson Cooper that he referred to "Mubarak Hussein Obama" as a Nazi:

COOPER: But wait Mark, you're actually the one who called President Obama Nazi.
WILLIAMS: I didn't call Barack Obama a Nazi.

COOPER: Yes, he's on your list, on your Web site of like 21st century Nazis. You have his name.

WILLIAMS: We've got the philosophy of fascism and national socialism at work here. Of course we do.

COOPER: No, no but you have the president's name, although it's a derivation that's not his actually name, it's a name it's kind of a negative.

WILLIAMS: Mubarak Hussein Obama.

COOPER: Right, that's what's you call him on your Website. You're the one who's using the term Nazi.

Tea Party Express, a series of nationwide anti-Obama bus tours, is frequently decried as "astroturf", or fake grassroots, by other aspects of the Tea Party movement, notably the Tea Party Patriots, due to its associations with Our Country Deserves Better PAC, which is run out of the Republican strategy firm Russo Marsh.

Williams acts as a spokesman for Tea Party Express.

Robin Stublen, a leader of the Tea Party Patriots, told HuffPost in an email, "Mark Williams is not someone I would want being my spokesman. He comes off as an arrogant, self promoting, egotistical jerk. In politics, people like Mark Williams are a dime a dozen, even when you factor in inflation."

Williams concluded his September email by inexplicably refusing to defend himself:

I will defend my record on race to no one (sic), under any circumstances and, I will call out any racist, any time without regard to who they are ... and that includes our half white, racist president.

michaelintp

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2010, 06:17:33 am »
So Reginald, did you have no reaction to what I posted above, regarding ideologically-driven efforts of some to blame Conservatives for the airplane bombing of the Austin IRS facility?  What about the likely possibility that Stack represented no ideology, but rather just went nuts and exploded? And what about the material I provided above regarding the Congressman and the Gubernatorial Candidate, posted in response to your query?  I really am interested in your answer to the question I raised at the end of that post, regarding your interpretation of, and reaction to, the comments of Congressman Steve King and Candidate Debra Medina:

"Explain to me how their comments are more reprehensible than someone in the 1960's saying, "The Vietnam war is horrible. America is engaged in war crimes. I sympathize with the feelings of Bill Ayers. I agree that we must stop this war. But of course I do not condone his violent actions." [setting off bombs in an organized conspiracy]

As to what you posted above, I've looked into what's been happening with the Tea Party stuff since you sparked my interest.  It appears that the movement is fragmented.  As reflected in the article you posted, one of Mark Williams' competitors had some things to say about him: "Robin Stublen, a leader of the Tea Party Patriots, told HuffPost in an email, 'Mark Williams is not someone I would want being my spokesman. He comes off as an arrogant, self promoting, egotistical jerk. In politics, people like Mark Williams are a dime a dozen, even when you factor in inflation.'"

Who said Conservatives are never critical of other Conservatives? 

From what I read, Williams' "Tea Party Express" organization did not even attend the Tea Party Convention this month.

Mark Williams appears to be the mirror reflection of some guys on the Left.  You know, the guys who were constantly proclaiming that they "hate Bush, that "Bush is a Nazi," and much worse on other things (which I really don't feel like getting into, arghhhh).

Of course I do not defend Williams' comments (including his stupid and ugly "half-white racist" remark), any more than you would defend the rantings of comparable "activists" on the Left. Or at least I hope you wouldn't. 

Though, haha, I am a little curious as to which civil rights marches Mr. Williams participated in, fending off with his bare hands those baseball bats with nails in 'em.  :P

But this has no bearing on what we've been talking about here ... the blaming of Conservatives and/or Republicans and/or Tea Party Activists for Joe Stack's bombing of the Austin IRS building.  Where, in truth, when he was alive Stack had nothing to do with the Conservative Movement.

Though you wouldn't know that, from all the crap that circulated in the Media and on the Internet (expounded by "Progressive" organizations and writers in major publications) after the bombing. From all that stuff, you wouldda thought that Joe Stack was Sarah Palin's secret lover or somethin'.  Sheesh!

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2010, 07:45:29 am »


Although I guess this could go in the Health Care thread.
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
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michaelintp

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Re: Tax Protestor Crashes Plane Into Office Building.
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2010, 04:39:16 pm »
 ;D`

Dang shame that not everyone can be as level-headed and reasonable as you 'n me, Curtis.  ;)