Author Topic: Republicans and Health Care  (Read 7709 times)

Offline Jay

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Republicans and Health Care
« on: March 28, 2010, 10:42:12 pm »
Somebody help me get into their heads? Why are Republicans so against reforming health care? I don't understand how can they be so against it?

I've heard them tell me or others

America has the best health care system in the world. Our system drives development and people from other countries come here to get treated?


And I agree with that to a point, but We have the best health care system if and only if you're rich! I find it hard to believe that NOT of them is for health care reform. NOT ONE!!

ObamaCare

and has anybody heard this video yet?



So can someone help me understand this mindset! AnyONE!!!??
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Offline moor

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Re: Republicans and Health Care
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2010, 07:03:47 am »
They are lying.  America does not have the best health care system in the world, nor are we even in the top 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, or 70.

People who are uninsured and seeking treatment in this country do exploit a legal and administrative loophole in the private health care system by using the emergency room as an ad hoc clinic. 

What many people get upset about is the fact that this ad hoc care is essentially subsidized by those that do pay for health care, either through employer-subsidized plans, or out of their own pockets.  You don't have to be a Conservative, or a Republican to be concerned about the alarming rise in costs associated with medical care and prescription drugs.   However, what upsets many on the Political Right is the notion, arguably, that the Government in mandating that all Americans carry health insurance by 2014 is essentiall forcing people to get health care, and violating the Constitutional right to... well...that's the argument.  Violating privacy rights, and liberty interests, interfering with an individual's right to choose, right to contract, freedom of speech, and freedom of association would be my off-hand guesses.

Oddly enough, nobody minds mandating auto insurance, I suppose because driving is commonly viewed as a privilege, rather than the property interest that it more appropriately should be identified as.  Of course, that also dovetails into the argument that such interests lie solely within the authority of states to govern, not the federal government.   

Many who advocate for limits on federal power feel that this (HCR) is the first step in federal authority usurping state's rights and imposing a form of socialism on its citizens.  You could argue that Congress has the power to either tax, investigate, or perhaps regulate the industry of privatized health care as a whole in this country, but not directly legislate and control it. 

I believe that's the beginning of the debate.  I'm sure I have missed many points of interest to which others may elaborate.

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Republicans and Health Care
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2010, 07:59:19 am »
Here's my read on it:

The Republicans are not uniformly against health care reform, they are against the Obama administration. They marshaled all their forces to deny him what can only be viewed as a victory. They sought to make HCR his "Waterloo". I see little more here than politics as usual. The Republicans have chosen to be the opposition party, the party of No. We'll see how that works for them in the next couple of elections.

This bill is actually pretty similar to the Massachusetts system signed into law by Mitt Romney.

One other thing, I think this thread belongs in Vox Populi. I'm going to move it over there.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 08:01:44 am by Curtis Metcalf »
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Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Republicans and Health Care
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2010, 08:10:15 am »
There is a mode of thinking that assumes that Government's only job is to defend its citizens- to provide an army and a national guard and that's it.

In this mindset ANY government regulation or adminisration of any enterprise other than the armed forces is unwelcome.

This is a fallacy.

The "Greatest Generation" that we hear so much about had no shame in going to school on the government dime. They had no shame in taking government money for loans to buy houses either.  Suggest NOT subsidising the American Farmer and see how far you get.

One of the more...interesting side effects of the Civil Rights Movement was that it turned off middle America to the concept of America providing a safety net for its citizens.

See they'd didn't think they meant dark-skinned folks too.   They thought it meant just THEM.  

Middle America has NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER with the concept of the safety net as long as its only for THEM. Since they know that is not the case, they do things like hold cosplay protests on one hand while taking thier unemployment checks and medicare with the other.

The Health Care Law we have now is the most middle of the road legisation imaginable.

The law is virtually IDENTICAL to what was put into place by Rebulican Mitt Romney in Mass. And there is not a SINGLE progressive initiative in the bill(the reason some on the hard left wanted the bill to die). Progressives wanted Medicare for all-didn't get it. They wanted a Public Option-didn't get it. They wanted illegals covered-didn't get that either. They were opposed to a universal mandate-THAT they got.

Why would Republicans oppose a Repulican bill? A Democratic is using the idea now. They can't have that.  Moreover its Obama. Who is Black. Everything he does is suspect in thier eyes.

Folks can scream about taxes all they like but the tax rate has gone down since Nixon was in office. Were Nixon to rise from his grave and run for election-the Republicans of today would probably call him a socialist too(which as we all know is far worse than being a zombie).


Offline Jay

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Re: Republicans and Health Care
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2010, 09:25:49 am »
They are lying.  America does not have the best health care system in the world, nor are we even in the top 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, or 70.

I don't think they are. I think the people who told me that actually Believe we are the best. Someone else told them that years ago and they never really looked into it because .... well they were white republicans  :o ... er I mean ...  'not from an urban area' I should say.  ;)

People who are uninsured and seeking treatment in this country do exploit a legal and administrative loophole in the private health care system by using the emergency room as an ad hoc clinic. 

What many people get upset about is the fact that this ad hoc care is essentially subsidized by those that do pay for health care, either through employer-subsidized plans, or out of their own pockets.  You don't have to be a Conservative, or a Republican to be concerned about the alarming rise in costs associated with medical care and prescription drugs.   However, what upsets many on the Political Right is the notion, arguably, that the Government in mandating that all Americans carry health insurance by 2014 is essentiall forcing people to get health care, and violating the Constitutional right to... well...that's the argument.  Violating privacy rights, and liberty interests, interfering with an individual's right to choose, right to contract, freedom of speech, and freedom of association would be my off-hand guesses.

Agreed. But that doesn't really make sense to me because of what you pointed out below.

Oddly enough, nobody minds mandating auto insurance, I suppose because driving is commonly viewed as a privilege, rather than the property interest that it more appropriately should be identified as.  Of course, that also dovetails into the argument that such interests lie solely within the authority of states to govern, not the federal government.   

Don't forget, they also made trans fats illegal in certain states too. NY was the first. Nobody complains about that. Or what about wearing a seat belt. Yes I know they save lives but if I'm an adult and I know the dangers of NOT wearing my seat belt shouldn't that be on me? Now if you have a kid with you then you should make him or her wear the seatbelt. But writing up an adult who only risking him or herself? Sounds idiotic to me. No one fought that! Did they?

Many who advocate for limits on federal power feel that this (HCR) is the first step in federal authority usurping state's rights and imposing a form of socialism on its citizens.  You could argue that Congress has the power to either tax, investigate, or perhaps regulate the industry of privatized health care as a whole in this country, but not directly legislate and control it.

Limiting federal power. LOL!
Wait a minute?! Isn't having a social security number a form of socialism that usurp state's rights? I mean, no matter where you go by federal mandate you HAVE to have a SS# to get hired and that's a government program right? Or do I have a few things off?

 
I believe that's the beginning of the debate.  I'm sure I have missed many points of interest to which others may elaborate.

Don't worry, I think you'll have a chance to bring up a bunch of stuff  ;D
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Offline Battle

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Re: Republicans and Health Care
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2010, 09:59:44 am »
Quote
Here's my read on it:

The Republicans are not uniformly against health care reform, they are against the Obama administration. --- Curtis Metcalf


The republicans are vehemently opposed to the Obama administration mainly because for the first time in many of thier careers,  is a politician that they cannot control who became the president of the United States, so what do they do? 

They[republican politicians] want him to adhere strictly to the constitution and the various American founding documents when he does. They accuse the president of corruption when he discreetly flexes executive power, they accuse him of being something that he's not, and they throw all of thier energy, money and  efforts in the wrong direction instead of going forward but here's the problem with the republicans  point-of-view:

The republicans cannot evade thier own history of contradiction and hypocrisy.

Offline Jay

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Re: Republicans and Health Care
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2010, 01:05:28 pm »
Quote
Here's my read on it:

The Republicans are not uniformly against health care reform, they are against the Obama administration. --- Curtis Metcalf


The republicans are vehemently opposed to the Obama administration mainly because for the first time in many of thier careers,  is a politician that they cannot control who became the president of the United States, so what do they do? 

They[republican politicians] want him to adhere strictly to the constitution and the various American founding documents when he does. They accuse the president of corruption when he discreetly flexes executive power, they accuse him of being something that he's not, and they throw all of thier energy, money and  efforts in the wrong direction instead of going forward but here's the problem with the republicans  point-of-view:

The republicans cannot evade thier own history of contradiction and hypocrisy.

So that's it?! Weren't they also against the Clintons when they tried to provide health care?

And if that's true. Are they going to be oppose to Obama trying to bring up the economy now too? Here's a man who really wanted to work together with them to get all the sides of the issue and all they can think is ... "How do we use this to our advantage.

You know, I use to think that Republicans did what they did because they actually thought they believed that was the best route for the country. But now, it's harder to see that. Especially now. And do you think the half way election for congress. Do you guys think that the public will make the majority of the Congress, Republican? Which will squash President's Obama's plans!  :'(

 

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Offline Battle

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Re: Republicans and Health Care
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2010, 01:20:09 pm »
Quote
Here's my read on it:

The Republicans are not uniformly against health care reform, they are against the Obama administration. --- Curtis Metcalf



The republicans are vehemently opposed to the Obama administration mainly because for the first time in many of thier careers,  is a politician that they cannot control who became the president of the United States, so what do they do?  

They[republican politicians] want him to adhere strictly to the constitution and the various American founding documents when he does. They accuse the president of corruption when he discreetly flexes executive power, they accuse him of being something that he's not, and they throw all of thier energy, money and  efforts in the wrong direction instead of going forward but here's the problem with the republicans  point-of-view:

The republicans cannot evade thier own history of contradiction and hypocrisy.


So that's it?! Weren't they also against the Clintons when they tried to provide health care?

And if that's true. Are they going to be oppose to Obama trying to bring up the economy now too? Here's a man who really wanted to work together with them to get all the sides of the issue and all they can think is ... "How do we use this to our advantage.

You know, I use to think that Republicans did what they did because they actually thought they believed that was the best route for the country. But now, it's harder to see that. Especially now. And do you think the half way election for congress. Do you guys think that the public will make the majority of the Congress, Republican? Which will squash President's Obama's plans!  :'(




I've heard it mentioned many times in print, TV and radio that the republican's main objective is to "make President Obama a one-term president."   That is the goal.

AN ADDENDUM:

Let's just say, hypothetically, that the House and Senate loses seats to a majority of republican politicians this November.  Let's just say...

The president's plans will not get 'squashed'. Temporarily on haitus, maybe... but not 'squashed'. 
Any bill or proposal he doesn't agree with in the senate, the president can pull out his  VETO pen from his lapel, remember?

Theoretically, when the American people witness and learn that a republican majority senate is deliberately stalling [again] domestic policy that effects them directly, they will respond in kind at the polls
--- by re-electing the president for a 2nd term along with a fresh new democratic majority in the House and Senate two years after that.

So what's the point?
It would be wiser for the opposition to compromise.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 02:10:39 pm by Battle »

Offline Jay

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Re: Republicans and Health Care
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2010, 02:23:30 pm »

Theoretically, when the American people witness and learn that a republican majority senate is deliberately stalling [again] domestic policy that effects them directly, they will respond in kind at the polls
--- by re-electing the president for a 2nd term along with a fresh new democratic majority in the House and Senate two years after that.

So what's the point?
It would be wiser for the opposition to compromise.


I have a theory too. The American people by and large are forgetful and when nothing gets done. They won't say "Hey the Republican Congress blocked things. They will say, "OH Obama and the democrats didn't do a damn thing. Time to put the Republicans in charge" And if that happens then I really believe he won't get anything more done and then he really will be a one-term president.

However. I also really didn't believe he would get that H.C.R bill through  ::)
So maybe he has more in store for me  8)
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Offline Battle

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Re: Republicans and Health Care
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2010, 02:49:24 pm »
So maybe he has more in store for me  8)

C'mon, man...  why can't anyone admit it? 
No one has ever seen a presidency like this one! 8)

Offline Jay

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Re: Republicans and Health Care
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2010, 03:02:24 pm »

C'mon, man...  why can't anyone admit it?  
No one has ever seen a presidency like this one! 8)

Could it be I/People just don't want to get my/there hopes up!!!  ::)
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Offline Redjack

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Re: Republicans and Health Care
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2010, 05:47:39 pm »
It's pretty simple:

Rebs work for Big Corporations and the Insurance industry contains some of the biggest. They do not give a damn about a single individual human (with the exceptions of themselves and their own families). Everything they say, and I mean 100% of what they say publicly, is calcualted to move their idiot constituents in directions that are not only counter to their own interests but counter-common sense. They are masters at manipulating the combination of racism, sexism, genderism and religious bigotry that sits dead center at the heart to of their party in order to serve their corporate masters and enrich themselves.


By contrast the Dems are all over the map. Most are equally in the pockets of various so-called "special interest" groups and also don't give much of a damn about actual Americans. The few places where most Dems line up (and why they're Dems in the first place rather than something else. The Dems are really the Not-Republican Party when you get right down to it) is on certain social issues that, strangely do line up both with the interests of the common man and with actual common sense.

But, because they don't have an actual party ethos or a base that has an easily identifiable core set of "values," they tend to fail not only at getting power in government but also at implementing change on those odd occasions when they do achieve power. And, of course, a great many of them are also deep in the pockets of various big businesses.

And all of this is not their fault. it's ours. Collectively we are a bunch of lazy, selfish, hypocritical, ignorant pricks who would allow our government to do just about any hideous thing it wants just so long as we don't have to take responsibility for it and can watch as much American Idol as we want.

If the rules would change to allow us to vote as Independents in primaries I would leave the Democrats in a heartbeat. They are as effed up as the Rebs, just in the other direction.

We get precisely the government we deserve every time there's an election.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2010, 05:54:02 pm by Redjack »
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Offline Jay

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Re: Republicans and Health Care
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2010, 07:05:20 pm »
It's pretty simple:

Rebs work for Big Corporations and the Insurance industry contains some of the biggest. They do not give a damn about a single individual human (with the exceptions of themselves and their own families). Everything they say, and I mean 100% of what they say publicly, is calcualted to move their idiot constituents in directions that are not only counter to their own interests but counter-common sense. They are masters at manipulating the combination of racism, sexism, genderism and religious bigotry that sits dead center at the heart to of their party in order to serve their corporate masters and enrich themselves.


By contrast the Dems are all over the map. Most are equally in the pockets of various so-called "special interest" groups and also don't give much of a damn about actual Americans. The few places where most Dems line up (and why they're Dems in the first place rather than something else. The Dems are really the Not-Republican Party when you get right down to it) is on certain social issues that, strangely do line up both with the interests of the common man and with actual common sense.

But, because they don't have an actual party ethos or a base that has an easily identifiable core set of "values," they tend to fail not only at getting power in government but also at implementing change on those odd occasions when they do achieve power. And, of course, a great many of them are also deep in the pockets of various big businesses.

And all of this is not their fault. it's ours. Collectively we are a bunch of lazy, selfish, hypocritical, ignorant pricks who would allow our government to do just about any hideous thing it wants just so long as we don't have to take responsibility for it and can watch as much American Idol as we want.

If the rules would change to allow us to vote as Independents in primaries I would leave the Democrats in a heartbeat. They are as effed up as the Rebs, just in the other direction.

We get precisely the government we deserve every time there's an election.

I can dig it. So if there were more politcal parties in America ... what would you be?
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Offline Battle

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Re: Republicans and Health Care
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2010, 07:31:43 am »
I can dig it. So if there were more politcal parties in America ... what would you be?





Huh??

Offline Jay

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Re: Republicans and Health Care
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2010, 06:50:51 pm »
I can dig it. So if there were more politcal parties in America ... what would you be?





Huh??


He said he would leave the democrats to be independent. Independent isn't really a political party is it?

There's Green, Socialist, Libertarian. (Things I can think off the top of my head)

In this country just Democrat or Republican and Independent is a party that's not supported by Democrat or Republican. An independent could literally be anything right?

So if you weren't going with the Democrat or Republican what political party would you be a part of if you were to leave the democrats. Makes sense now.

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