Author Topic: The Return T'Challa as Black Panther and Shuri..The New White Wolf?  (Read 10944 times)

Offline sinjection1

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Re: The Return T'Challa as Black Panther and Shuri..The New White Wolf?
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2010, 08:36:02 am »
@Sin: Depending on who you listen to, the deaths of Black panther leadership in 60's Chicago were FBI assassinations. Thier dirt was just only done internally. The CIA did the overseas stuff.

COINTELPRO! How could I have forgotten? Very good, Vic. Thanks for the reminder.

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It might never be touched on in print,  but many of the motivations that Hunter had would probably be shared by Shuri. Her mother was Ramonda. That makes her only half Wakandan. Of course being the daughter of the king would protect her from the scorn that young Hunter got but she'd have known something was up. Add to that her mother's kidnapping and Shuri brutality comes off differently. Its now the reaction to a host of ligit grudges. The only thing keeping Shuri from becoming Hunter is her moral sense.

I see your point. Some observations: T'Chaka died before Ramonda was rescued by and returned to Wakanda by T'Challa who was by then, a grown man and himself King of Wakanda. There was no Shuri, no Hunter; no Hatut Zeraze in existence at that time. McGregor's abducted/violated Ramonda probably only heard of T'Chaka's assassination by Klaw as she was Pretorious' prisoner at that time. Hudlin's Ramonda witnessed T'Chaka's assassination. T'Challa was there as was Shuri. No Hunter. These threads could all be tied up, but is it really worth doing so? Hunter, a white man and son of "outworlders", was adopted by the Wakandan King who would later marry a black "outworlder" and make her his Queen. Hunter - who was a complete outworlder - fared better than Nezhno, whose mother is Wakandan. Ramonda, a black outworlder, becomes not only Queen of Wakanda, but the High Priestess of the Panther Cult as well. Her daughter Shuri is a Wakandan Princess, the only factor differentiating her from the mutant Nezhno as both are offspring of a Wakandan and an outworlder. According to Maberry, Shuri is a "screw up" and a "thug". I don't remember him saying anything about Shuri's "moral sense" aside from her being a "thug".

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If Killmonger is the anti-Tchalla, then Hunter is the Anti-Shuri. The difference being they'd have considerable sympathy for each other being family and being in the same boat socially in a sense. And if you assume that the royals sent Shuri away for her own protection during the time that Ramonda was missing-it would explain a lot.


Shuri being sent away during Ramonda's abduction is a rather big assumption to make. Does Hudlin's run even acknowledge the existence of the Hatut Zeraze or Hunter?  

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If I could see Shuri taking on the mantle of White Wolf it would be either to redeem the HZ or because she has become down with thier methods(which would be a heel turn and one way to get Tchalla back on the throne). Hunter could well say "if I had been around the Desturi would never have become a threat-I'd of killed them all".

Not saying Shuri should take that name going forward. Lately I've been thinking Shuri should call herself Shadowcat. Kitty Pride doesnt really use the name anymore anyhow.

And I like Ghost Panther for Kaspar.

"Shadowcat" for Shuri and "Ghost Panther" for Kevin Cole. Henceforward, I'm going to endeavor to not call him Kasper, because the reason he came by that name is incredibly ridiculous to me. I like BOTH codenames for BOTH characters, even though I couldn't ever see the x-franchise ever giving "Shadowcat" to the Black Panther after having surrendered Storm and even if I cannot stand the character of Kevin Cole.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 08:38:58 am by sinjection1 »
Mr. MajestiK, I like your style. You are the wiser, calmer, more articulate second coming of sinjection to "that other place". You do me proud.

Offline 4sake

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Re: The Return T'Challa as Black Panther and Shuri..The New White Wolf?
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2010, 01:36:47 pm »
Some good idea dere some I agree with other not so much..

Here is my two cents about how to make the Black Panther from a B-lister to an A-list hero.

1) Get rid of Jonathan Mayberry bring in Dwayne McDuffie.
No disrespect to him but with T'Challa..sometimes the writer and character are not a good fit. I am not saying it has to with him personally but if it was Cap or Wolverine he would probably do fine but with a character with a small but loyal fan base he needs more. McDuffie is a seasoned COMIC book writer who knows the complexities of a character esp. when dealing with black characters. He knows what lines to cross and ones to step back from. Doomwar...I don't mind what happened to Wakanda but how it happen I have a HUGE problem with. Doom and T'Challa were ALLIES. Look at Black Panther 2099.. the Black Panther still became a puppet of Doom.

I agree

2)Give T'Challa back the mantle
Yea, Yea Dick Grayson was Batman too but Bruce is getting his suit back. Nuff Said.

I agree.

3)Give the Black Panther a strong supporting cast
I would love to see Monica Lynne return as a US Ambassador to Wakanda. Shuri as the WHITE WOLF. Kasper Cole as the head of security at Wakandan Design Group. The return of Queen Divine Justice and Vabraxis. The return of his cousins the Black Musketeers or as the Fantastic Force. Last but not least the return of Jakarra as the military dictator of Azania.

I agree on strong supporting cast, but I disagree with a few of your picks..

Jakarra - I'd keep him dead, He's one of the 1st ppl T'Challa had to kill & his brother.
I'd have T'Challa reflected on his death for issue or 2 (maybe talk to Shuri & O about it.)
I'd have H'unter & Killmonger bring up to piss T'Challa off
& I'd introduced/create Jakarra  mother who would hate much hate every one (T'Challa, QM, Shuri, O, Syan, Zuri, T'Chaka, & etc).. That How'd I keep his name/memory alive     

Monica Lynne return as a US Ambassador to Wakanda... No please, guess star when T'Challa & O have storyline in the US. But no Ambassador to Wakanda. I'd prefer Ross & I hate Ross.. I don't hate her I just don't thinks fits & really never did fit.  As for US Ambassador to Wakanda, I'd say Steve R or Sam W or Monica R would make better fits imo.

Black Musketeers-I personally never cared for them (I liked Khanata hair in JK run & Dr.Joshua Itobo, was ok he come make a ok villain..) & if brought back you mite have explain how there his cousins & etc (which mean making the 2 older members T'Chaka & S'Yan sibling or giving Nanali or Azzuri a brother or sister & making them dere kids).  I'd just make J.Kirby Khanata & Fred Van Lente Derek Khanata on in the same.

He's alot easier to work & bring back into the myths imo.  He's around T'Challa age or maybe a lil older.
If you put those 2 characters together you go have half you work & just fill in a few details.
I'd say he's T'Challa cousin by way of N’Yami (little has been do with her so be some development for her as well & we know very lil about her side of the fam.). I'd make him  N’Yami kid brother or nephew.

From JK run he know he had little interested in being Panther/being a super hero & prefer driving his race car. Also that was that brave atleast up till Kibers issues of JK run & after those issues the character wasn't used again. I'd revel that change his out look on life & made him deice he didn't want what happen to him (being kidnapped) to happen to another Wakandan. So to become stronger he join the Hatut Zeraze & became a high ranking member. Also I'd reveal he's was T'Challa inside man in the Hatut Zeraze & told him all the things H'unter was up to & etc. After that HZ were disbaned, He, his wife & kids  went he want to traveling, later decide he wanted to be a SHIELD agent a little before Secret Wars (after he T'Challa started hearing rumors SHIELD was planing to invade a foreign powerhouse nation  ). Also I'd reveal that he was giving T'Challa inside info on SHIELD.


Kasper Cole as the head of security at Wakandan Design Group.
- T'Challa seemed didn't to like him or trust him all that much. I think Okoye would be better for that role with Kasper member of her security team. That way you you some what bring back/bring up their feeling for each other..

The return of Queen Divine Justice -  I agree

Its time Queen Divine Justice/Ce'Athauna be brought back & take her rightful place a leader of Jabari tribe/ White Gorilla Cult. I'd personally have her White Gorilla Cult work very M'Baku.  Something similar to how Chiro from Super Robot Monkey Team HyperForce Go! & Vixens of DC comics work. Meaning she wouldn't be walking around in a Gorilla suit

 
4) Make February Black Panther month and have T’Challa and his supporting cast make an appearance in every Marvel Comic book in publication. This would raise the profile of the Black Panther and make other readers aware of who he was.

This both hurt & help.  Because they'd get JOBBED in many of those guest appearances & you'd here ppl complain about having BP force down there throats & etc.

5)Give T’Challa a quest or a new sense of purpose of who he is.

I think that kind of what they'll doing with him now & I really havit been enjoying it so far

6)Give T’Challa a Prime Minister to carry out his affairs ala the Queen of England.

Petty much already has this in the Regent role.(which W'Kabi, Ross, N'Gassi & S'yan have all done). I'd keep Shuri as Regent/Princess-Regent have her take over W'kabi role aka have running the War Room, running things when T'Challa & O are not in nation & etc.

7)Bring back the Order of the Panther and The Dogs of War…Hatut Zeraze.

I agree

I'd make Derek Khanata/Khanata  leader of the Hatut Zeraze.
I'd make Malaika the leader Order of the Panther .

8)Make and license Black Panther merch. Nothing builds a character like wearing the clothes like caps and T-shirts.

9) Posters, Posters, Posters.

10) The Black Panther animated series.

I agree..

To your list I'd added BP needs more villains. Moses Magnum, Deadly Doctor Nightshade, H'unter & Kiber The Cruel should joined Klaw & Killmonger as top Panther villains.

I'd like to see Malice/Nakia & Princess Zanda returned as some.

I'd also added Red Ghost (Ivan Kragoff), the Purifiers, Carnivore, & Deluge as villains who be used in BP books.
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Offline 4sake

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Re: The Return T'Challa as Black Panther and Shuri..The New White Wolf?
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2010, 02:34:44 pm »
I think he's talking about this: Order Of The Panther

http://hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=6216.msg102596#msg102596


Aha! Thank you, 4Sake. Coming through once again as you always do. I read your excellent response to an earlier comment of mine posted last week and plan to respond to it very soon. I do think I understand for the most part, what you and others are getting at when you discuss Black Panther as being a Batman "type", but I want to re-read your fine post in full to make sure. I mentioned you just today, Dear Friend. I was wondering - if time allowed - if you could find some comparison scans of Rihanna and the character Tia who captured Tyrone Johnson's affections in the Cloak and Dagger one-shot. If anyone can do it, you can.


OK cool & I posted it in the DoomWar #6 thread..
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Offline 4sake

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Re: The Return T'Challa as Black Panther and Shuri..The New White Wolf?
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2010, 02:51:13 pm »
@Sin: Depending on who you listen to, the deaths of Black panther leadership in 60's Chicago were FBI assassinations. Thier dirt was just only done internally. The CIA did the overseas stuff.

It might never be touched on in print,  but many of the motivations that Hunter had would probably be shared by Shuri. Her mother was Ramonda. That makes her only half Wakandan. Of course being the daughter of the king would protect her from the scorn that young Hunter got but she'd have known something was up. Add to that her mother's kidnapping and Shuri brutality comes off differently. Its now the reaction to a host of ligit grudges. The only thing keeping Shuri from becoming Hunter is her moral sense.

If Killmonger is the anti-Tchalla, then Hunter is the Anti-Shuri. The difference being they'd have considerable sympathy for each other being family and being in the same boat socially in a sense. And if you assume that the royals sent Shuri away for her own protection during the time that Ramonda was missing-it would explain a lot.

If I could see Shuri taking on the mantle of White Wolf it would be either to redeem the HZ or because she has become down with thier methods(which would be a heel turn and one way to get Tchalla back on the throne). Hunter could well say "if I had been around the Desturi would never have become a threat-I'd of killed them all".

I agree

I see your point. Some observations: T'Chaka died before Ramonda was rescued by and returned to Wakanda by T'Challa who was by then, a grown man and himself King of Wakanda. There was no Shuri, no Hunter; no Hatut Zeraze in existence at that time. McGregor's abducted/violated Ramonda probably only heard of T'Chaka's assassination by Klaw as she was Pretorious' prisoner at that time. Hudlin's Ramonda witnessed T'Chaka's assassination. T'Challa was there as was Shuri. No Hunter. These threads could all be tied up, but is it really worth doing so? Hunter, a white man and son of "outworlders", was adopted by the Wakandan King who would later marry a black "outworlder" and make her his Queen. Hunter - who was a complete outworlder - fared better than Nezhno, whose mother is Wakandan. Ramonda, a black outworlder, becomes not only Queen of Wakanda, but the High Priestess of the Panther Cult as well. Her daughter Shuri is a Wakandan Princess, the only factor differentiating her from the mutant Nezhno as both are offspring of a Wakandan and an outworlder.

Some are & some aren't. Some of ares : The where was Shuri before RH run, Hunter been since CJP run, Ramonda kidnapping, T'Chaka different deaths are petty easily to me tie up (In fact i got a to do so with out adding/changing much).

Nezho thing can be clear up to, but for most part it was plain bad writing. As good/ok as Yost write T'Challa & as good/great he writes O. his Wakanda is one of worst imo.  But Nez not hard to clear, but it's not really worth it imo cause he not really a BP character & doesn't bring in much for take panel time that come going to others. While Shuri, QM, T'Chaka H'Unter all bring something imo. I personal don't like H'unter, but I don't think I'm supposed to  ;D, but I understand whats his role & what adds to books imo.       
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Offline Soulja

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Re: The Return T'Challa as Black Panther and Shuri..The New White Wolf?
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2010, 06:41:13 pm »
Some good idea dere some I agree with other not so much..

Here is my two cents about how to make the Black Panther from a B-lister to an A-list hero.

1) Get rid of Jonathan Mayberry bring in Dwayne McDuffie.
No disrespect to him but with T'Challa..sometimes the writer and character are not a good fit. I am not saying it has to with him personally but if it was Cap or Wolverine he would probably do fine but with a character with a small but loyal fan base he needs more. McDuffie is a seasoned COMIC book writer who knows the complexities of a character esp. when dealing with black characters. He knows what lines to cross and ones to step back from. Doomwar...I don't mind what happened to Wakanda but how it happen I have a HUGE problem with. Doom and T'Challa were ALLIES. Look at Black Panther 2099.. the Black Panther still became a puppet of Doom.

I agree

2)Give T'Challa back the mantle
Yea, Yea Dick Grayson was Batman too but Bruce is getting his suit back. Nuff Said.

I agree.

3)Give the Black Panther a strong supporting cast
I would love to see Monica Lynne return as a US Ambassador to Wakanda. Shuri as the WHITE WOLF. Kasper Cole as the head of security at Wakandan Design Group. The return of Queen Divine Justice and Vabraxis. The return of his cousins the Black Musketeers or as the Fantastic Force. Last but not least the return of Jakarra as the military dictator of Azania.

I agree on strong supporting cast, but I disagree with a few of your picks..

Jakarra - I'd keep him dead, He's one of the 1st ppl T'Challa had to kill & his brother.
I'd have T'Challa reflected on his death for issue or 2 (maybe talk to Shuri & O about it.)
I'd have H'unter & Killmonger bring up to piss T'Challa off
& I'd introduced/create Jakarra  mother who would hate much hate every one (T'Challa, QM, Shuri, O, Syan, Zuri, T'Chaka, & etc).. That How'd I keep his name/memory alive     

Monica Lynne return as a US Ambassador to Wakanda... No please, guess star when T'Challa & O have storyline in the US. But no Ambassador to Wakanda. I'd prefer Ross & I hate Ross.. I don't hate her I just don't thinks fits & really never did fit.  As for US Ambassador to Wakanda, I'd say Steve R or Sam W or Monica R would make better fits imo.

Black Musketeers-I personally never cared for them (I liked Khanata hair in JK run & Dr.Joshua Itobo, was ok he come make a ok villain..) & if brought back you mite have explain how there his cousins & etc (which mean making the 2 older members T'Chaka & S'Yan sibling or giving Nanali or Azzuri a brother or sister & making them dere kids).  I'd just make J.Kirby Khanata & Fred Van Lente Derek Khanata on in the same.

He's alot easier to work & bring back into the myths imo.  He's around T'Challa age or maybe a lil older.
If you put those 2 characters together you go have half you work & just fill in a few details.
I'd say he's T'Challa cousin by way of N’Yami (little has been do with her so be some development for her as well & we know very lil about her side of the fam.). I'd make him  N’Yami kid brother or nephew.

From JK run he know he had little interested in being Panther/being a super hero & prefer driving his race car. Also that was that brave atleast up till Kibers issues of JK run & after those issues the character wasn't used again. I'd revel that change his out look on life & made him deice he didn't want what happen to him (being kidnapped) to happen to another Wakandan. So to become stronger he join the Hatut Zeraze & became a high ranking member. Also I'd reveal he's was T'Challa inside man in the Hatut Zeraze & told him all the things H'unter was up to & etc. After that HZ were disbaned, He, his wife & kids  went he want to traveling, later decide he wanted to be a SHIELD agent a little before Secret Wars (after he T'Challa started hearing rumors SHIELD was planing to invade a foreign powerhouse nation  ). Also I'd reveal that he was giving T'Challa inside info on SHIELD.


Kasper Cole as the head of security at Wakandan Design Group.
- T'Challa seemed didn't to like him or trust him all that much. I think Okoye would be better for that role with Kasper member of her security team. That way you you some what bring back/bring up their feeling for each other..

The return of Queen Divine Justice -  I agree

Its time Queen Divine Justice/Ce'Athauna be brought back & take her rightful place a leader of Jabari tribe/ White Gorilla Cult. I'd personally have her White Gorilla Cult work very M'Baku.  Something similar to how Chiro from Super Robot Monkey Team HyperForce Go! & Vixens of DC comics work. Meaning she wouldn't be walking around in a Gorilla suit

 
4) Make February Black Panther month and have T’Challa and his supporting cast make an appearance in every Marvel Comic book in publication. This would raise the profile of the Black Panther and make other readers aware of who he was.

This both hurt & help.  Because they'd get JOBBED in many of those guest appearances & you'd here ppl complain about having BP force down there throats & etc.

5)Give T’Challa a quest or a new sense of purpose of who he is.

I think that kind of what they'll doing with him now & I really havit been enjoying it so far

6)Give T’Challa a Prime Minister to carry out his affairs ala the Queen of England.

Petty much already has this in the Regent role.(which W'Kabi, Ross, N'Gassi & S'yan have all done). I'd keep Shuri as Regent/Princess-Regent have her take over W'kabi role aka have running the War Room, running things when T'Challa & O are not in nation & etc.

7)Bring back the Order of the Panther and The Dogs of War…Hatut Zeraze.

I agree

I'd make Derek Khanata/Khanata  leader of the Hatut Zeraze.
I'd make Malaika the leader Order of the Panther .

8)Make and license Black Panther merch. Nothing builds a character like wearing the clothes like caps and T-shirts.

9) Posters, Posters, Posters.

10) The Black Panther animated series.

I agree..

To your list I'd added BP needs more villains. Moses Magnum, Deadly Doctor Nightshade, H'unter & Kiber The Cruel should joined Klaw & Killmonger as top Panther villains.

I'd like to see Malice/Nakia & Princess Zanda returned as some.

I'd also added Red Ghost (Ivan Kragoff), the Purifiers, Carnivore, & Deluge as villains who be used in BP books.

iGood point I agree it ghave me something to think about. I would love to see Kiber the Cruel comeback.