Author Topic: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.  (Read 127349 times)

Offline Ture

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Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2010, 09:21:33 pm »
Seven I wasn't blaming Reggie for anything except for doing a good job. I was being tongue in cheek when I said Reggie made mistakes. The examples I cited were meant to illustrate the water shed moments of Reggie's run. Reggie's " bad mistakes" were some of the best moments in Panther history. Sorry Reg if you thought otherwise. You were right Kip I was trying to be cleaver. Be confused no more Vic.

Please note I modified my original post for greater clarity.

















 
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 10:26:04 pm by Ture »
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Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2010, 10:26:12 pm »
Sorry for being dense and not getting the joke.

Offline Ture

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2010, 10:38:19 pm »
Ahhhhh... A sigh of relief, you had me worried. I was hurt there for a minute. All is right again in Wakanda. Thanks Reg for re-reading my post. Now hopefully the others will do the same.
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Offline Daoud

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Ture, I agree.
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2010, 11:50:21 pm »
After reading the third installment of Doomwar I found myself drawn back to my first post "Epitomizing the Black Panther." Though the writing may be satisfactory the ineptitude displayed in the personalities (if such can even be said to exist) of Tchalla and Storm is deplorable. Tchalla lacks poise and confidence as Storm does depth and purpose. Both could be removed from the story and not be missed. The depiction  of Wakanda is unforgivable. It possesses no mystique, majesty, magic or uniqueness. It has all the depth of a "third world" country. Its populace is soulless and dimensionless. The writer may be trying to infuse so called contemporary Afrakan politics and sensibilities into the story but it leaves me thinking he lacks the rectitude to envision an unconquered futuristic Afrakan nation. The title of this comic is correct, this is not a Black Panther comic it is a Doom comic.

Let us begin by examining the following: the deposing of Tchalla by a fringe group that no one has heard of is outrageous and disrespectful. If the Desturi were connected with the Jabari tribe of the Man Ape or Killmonger's people in N'Jadaka city or better still to Hunter and the Hatut Zeraze .... this would give precedence and feasibility to such an attempt.

The untenable and blasphemous treatment of Storm goes all the way back to the Worlds Apart mini series and continues in Doomwar. We are supposed to believe that there is no moral outrage by the citizens of this "warrior" nation as to to her treatment, nor support for a goddess who is known throughout Afraka.

We are supposed to believe that the Wakandans assisting Doom are so dissatisfied with Tchalla's rulership that they side with an outsider despite centuries of isolationism (bordering on xenophobia) and self determinism. To add further insult we bear witness to a Wakandan calling Doom "my lord" as Doom not only tells him to get to work but says "it won't matter who rules this country, it will be a wasteland of ash and charred bones." And every one is alright with this?

Tchalla, master strategist and genius that he is, has his head bowed as his younger sister asks the X-Men for help. How much tide turning can four X-Men do? Tchalla is lured into a trap and nearly killed by Doom by a mere energy blast from Doom's gauntlet (this did not occur in Doomwar but is the catalyst for it). Couldn't Tchalla dodge it? What happened to the vibranium microweave of his habit? Reg a little help here. Tchalla could not get rid of a nanite infestation nor fully explain how he was able to avoid such.

PERHAPS THE MOST AGGRIEVOUS ACT WAS ANNOUCING THAT AFTER TEN THOUSAND YEARS OF WAKANDANS EXPLORING THE SECRETS OF VIBRANIUM, THEY NEVER MASTERED THE SECRET OF USING MAGICALLY CHARGED VIBRANIUM... BUT DOOM HAS!!!

All this occurs in the first issue.

Where is the advanced technology Wakanda is legendary for? Why weren't the Dora Milaje cloaked? Where was Tchalla's armors? Why does Tchalla have runes painted on his flesh and not Medu? How can so many Wakandans be ignorant of magic and spirituality? Why do the soldiers of Wakanda look like they came straight out of that Hotel in Rwanda?

In issue #3 we start off with a six page recap whose pages could have been better utilized depicting the caves of Bast, (remember how long you stared at Jim Lees depiction of the batcave).

Shuri's bright idea is to carpet bomb the capitol with EMPs to get rid of the nanites but Tchalla couldn't come up with a better option like using the plane he landed in Latveria in issue 19 of Reg's run? It set off an EMP. Wakanda needs Reed's supplies to have power restored? Why do they continue saying Wakanda has been conquered when they clearly have not.

OH BUT THE MOST HEINOUS OF ACTS WAS DOOM'S MEETING WITH THE PANTHER SPIRIT. IT SEES DOOM AS PURE DESPITE THE HARM HE HAS DONE TO THE PANTHER SPIRIT'S MOST LOYAL OF FOLLOWERS. IS JONATHAN MAYBERRY HINTING THAT THE PANTHER SPIRIT HAS SEEN THE PATH THAT LEADS TO DOOMWORLD AND NOT TO THE FUTURE WHERE TCHALLA AND STORM LEAD THE WORLD AS SEEN IN BP BLACK TO THE FUTURE.

So as I await the conclusion of Doomwar hoping for the redemption of Storm, Wakanda and especially Tchalla (the only Black Panther I'm concerned with) I am prepared for the worst.

Yet and still I can't help but to believe this is all Reggie's fault "wink". Reggie has made some pretty bad impactful "mistakes" during his tenure on Black Panther that I think we need to examine appreciate.

First off, he made a declarative statement that Wakanda has never been conquered. He had the Black Panther defeat Captain America twice, look superior to the X-Men, subdue the Sub Mariner, outclass Ironman and easily out fight Karnak. Black Panther and Storm defeated Doom and helped liberate a Skrull world.

HIS MOST FLAGRANT ERROR  AUDACIOUS MOVE WAS THE MARRIAGE OF BLACK PANTHER TO STORM. HE EVEN HAD THE BLATANT DISREGARD TO INTIMATE CONJUGAL RELATIONS BETWEEN THEM ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS. :o

Reggie has unashamedly interwoven Afrakan history, contemporary politics and hip hop culture into a tapestry of heroic exploits palatable to a variety of comic book readers. He has sold more Black Panther comics than any writer in the character's history and is responsible for the first animated series dedicated to the King of Wakanda.

The aforementioned are no doubt viewed as "mistakes" to be corrected and are inexcusable to BP haters. Why? Because they demonstrate a responsibility to one's artistry, one's people, the general public and to one's self.  As I turn to the first page of Reggie's latest work Flags of our Fathers I already see the "mistakes"... I mean, SUCCESSFUL ATTEMPTS to give depth and integrity to this deserving character.

I'm just reading your edited post so I understand perfectly what you are saying.

I agree totally.

I had high hopes for this series but I'm getting the same passive/aggresive sense I got from Priest's run (which I pretty much hated the more I thought about it.)

I passed a copy of Doomwar 2 to my younger brother and he expressed immediate dislike of the line about Wakanda being conquered.

Truly it seems that Marvel is trying to write a comic that fixes the "mistakes" that you mentioned and appeal to more of the current comic buying audience.

The problem, as I've learned from listening to the critics of Reggie's run, is the Black Panther they want to read isn't the comic I, and people like me, want to read. 

It is no wonder American comics have such a small audience.  The type of stories told are so narrow as to be laughable.
You see this same problem with respect to girl comics also.  By attempting to make a product for its core audience the companies fail to attract the readers they say they want.

I want to read a comic about a Black Man who is King of his own country, Honourable, Righteuos, a bit funny, married to the best woman in the world ;) who isn't portrayed as weak herself and negotiating the world without losing his country!!!  I'm sorry that last part really ticks me off.

Portraying strength by killing alot of people.  His own people I might add.  Well that didn't stop him from getting his country destroyed!  That is the job of a Black Panther!  He failed at his role!  What kind of King is he?!! Oh, he's not a king now.  (sigh)

It's a bunch of bull.

All the things you mentioned Reggie doing were exceptional for Marvel and appreciated by me.

I came to this post via Jenn's reference on CBR and felt compelled to reply.

Well said Ture.


Excelsior!

Daoud

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2010, 07:36:15 am »
Seven I wasn't blaming Reggie for anything except for doing a good job. I was being tongue in cheek when I said Reggie made mistakes. The examples I cited were meant to illustrate the water shed moments of Reggie's run. Reggie's " bad mistakes" were some of the best moments in Panther history. Sorry Reg if you thought otherwise. You were right Kip I was trying to be cleaver. Be confused no more Vic.

Please note I modified my original post for greater clarity. 


Ah, O.K.

I thought that was what you had meant. Glad to see I was not that confused after all (for once ;D).

You've got a point, Ture.

The Black Panther that Reg did that many of us got on board with, was a Black Nationalist power fantasy.

He was also a well rounded human being. Regal to his subjects light hearted and joking with his intimates. He loved and worshipped his noble and queenly wife and wasn't afraid to show it.

Mayberry is doing something else with the book.

He's doing 24 but with Super Heroes.

His Black Panther isn't well rounded. He's a schemer first and foremost(a noble and benevolent schemer, but a schemer all the same).He 's been pitted against another schemer, Marvel's star arch villain, a guy who probably has a bigger fanbase than the lead characters.

In the complex back and forth between two schemers out to mislead, depose, assassinate, punch, kick and stab each other into submission, any conversation or human interplay that doesnít relate to said schemers trying to screw each other over has been done away with. All conversations are either mission briefings or the delivering of instructions to one set of allies or the other.

Mayberry been also been accused of Misogyny.

I donít think thatís correct.

He certainly likes Shuri and the Doras well enough. I donít think Mayberry hates Storm either. I think he just likes shooting and stabbing. A LOT. And the planning out of said shooting and stabbing too.

Since Storm isnít a shooter or stabber she gets shuffled to the background so that MORE shooting and stabbing(and the planning out of same) can continue uninterrupted by her high powered non-shooting and stabbing hi-jinks. Notice that Deadpool (a shooter and stabber) is joining the cast. Also notice that Sue and Johnny Storm (non-shooters and stabbers) barely have any lines.

Now is all of this a BAD thing? Not if you like shooting and stabbing(or scheming). Or enjoy seeing Doctor Doom or other A-list villainy featured. Mayberryís being defended because this kind of stuff always has an audience. After Civil War, there wasnít an A-list bad guy to be found in Regís B.P. run(not a dis, just an observation). So there a lot of YAAAY DOOOM going on here too.

If you like a well rounded Black Panther who actually talks to his wife Storm (Doomwar 3 is the first issue where they have spoken face to face since his run began) this probably isnít for you.

The current run is more about a guy writing to his strengths than it is a conspiracy to castrate the characters.
 



Offline bluezulu

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2010, 07:55:27 am »
The read of Flag of our Fathers and the past year of stories of black panther is like night and day. Marvel soo needs a black man writing a black book. Since Cage is out of the main Avengers book, I have not read anything from Marvel except for Fof.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2010, 08:47:06 am »
<<The problem, as I've learned from listening to the critics of Reggie's run, is the Black Panther they want to read isn't the comic I, and people like me, want to read.  >>


I have said and often felt, that getting the BP that Reg created and making BP an A-lister are mutually exclusive goals.  A-Listers are the "safe", non-political, non-threatening, non-anything type.  A Listers are multi-cultural, inclusive, (socially) politically correct.   Reggie's vision of BP isn't for the masses, an A-list BP and Storm would be for the masses.  (That's why when Storm was at her height of popularity, she became the example of Multiculturalism--she isn't Black, she's all races.)

Offline Seven

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Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2010, 08:57:06 am »
Seven I wasn't blaming Reggie for anything except for doing a good job. I was being tongue in cheek when I said Reggie made mistakes. The examples I cited were meant to illustrate the water shed moments of Reggie's run. Reggie's " bad mistakes" were some of the best moments in Panther history. Sorry Reg if you thought otherwise. You were right Kip I was trying to be cleaver. Be confused no more Vic.

Please note I modified my original post for greater clarity.


My bad. I saw that after the fact...which is why when KIP pointed it out I was like oh.

I agree that that his "bad mistakes" are only bad mistakes to the idiot fanboys...and that most of it is similar to other things that happend before...he just did it without making excuses for it.
















 
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 09:00:23 am by Seven »

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2010, 09:31:43 am »
<<The problem, as I've learned from listening to the critics of Reggie's run, is the Black Panther they want to read isn't the comic I, and people like me, want to read.  >>


I have said and often felt, that getting the BP that Reg created and making BP an A-lister are mutually exclusive goals.  A-Listers are the "safe", non-political, non-threatening, non-anything type.  A Listers are multi-cultural, inclusive, (socially) politically correct.   Reggie's vision of BP isn't for the masses, an A-list BP and Storm would be for the masses.  (That's why when Storm was at her height of popularity, she became the example of Multiculturalism--she isn't Black, she's all races.)

Not necessarily.

A mass market Black Panther could be sucessful without being homogenized. Look at the first Blade movie for example.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2010, 09:47:50 am »
Blade isn't an A-lister; isn't even close.   

I'm not saying BP (Reggie's version) can't be popular to some audiences, but not the mass media character Spiderman and Superman are.

Offline Francisco

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2010, 10:38:32 am »
Blade isn't an A-lister; isn't even close.   

I'm not saying BP (Reggie's version) can't be popular to some audiences, but not the mass media character Spiderman and Superman are.
A good movie and a good cartoon would take care of that. Blade isn't an A-lister simply because Marvel hasn't used him properly not because him not having a wide appeal to the masses.
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Offline Ture

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2010, 01:38:29 pm »
A referral from Jenn...life is good. Thank you Daoud. Precisely my point Vic, what Reg did was not only needed but warranted. I totally feel you on that Bluezulu and I find myself in agreement with you Kip. If Afrakan images and stylings were promoted through comics and animation utilizing the artistic and marketing sensibilities that come with it the results would be staggering. A example would be the Black Panther comic and cartoon, appreciate that Reg.  I'm glad we are back on the same page Seven. I see your point Vic. Kip, Superman and Spiderman have had consistent exposure in comics and cartoons for decades which lends to name and brand recognition, emotional connectedness, cross over into other mediums and a increases in popularity to the general public. The same could happen for BP. I concur Francisco.
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Offline Mastrmynd

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2010, 02:48:28 pm »
well, we'll find out soon.
nevertheless, my boy Seven wrote a really good post.

great job brother!
i love how you supported your statements, toO!


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Offline sinjection1

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2010, 07:51:35 pm »
The read of Flag of our Fathers and the past year of stories of black panther is like night and day. Marvel soo needs a black man writing a black book. Since Cage is out of the main Avengers book, I have not read anything from Marvel except for Fof.

And how many times was it I mentioned the ways of the "larger comicbook-reading demographic" and white writers writing stories designed primarily to entertain a predominantly white male audience? Arisen from oblivion, this is sinjection. This is what woke me from eternal hibernation; my CBR epitaph:

Brian Cronin
10-28-2009, 10:02 AM
sinjection was interesting in the sense that he often had fairly reasonable complaints, and I thought he often got reactions that did not fit his original positions due to the over-sensitivity when it comes to race.

That said, he would then go way past the original reasonable complaint and just act like a jerk.

-Brian


One CBR member thought it would be a good thing to re-post what he called "sinjection's greatest hits". Doing so would crash their forum as EVERYTHING I posted over there WAS a hit, which often hit them where it hurt them most. And so now bluezulu says, "Marvel soo needs a black man writing a black book." I was saying this same thing - among others - during my time @ the CBR. Cronin is a good person, a fair-minded fellow, who understood that it was often the over-sensitivity of many members of the "larger comicbook-reading demographic" to racial issues in comicbooks that drove their idiotic kneejerk reactions which in turn caused them to suffer "sinjection correction".

I've no doubt that many white readers are onboard DOOMWAR because they perceive it as a Dr. Doom story, not a Black Panther story and thus far, T'Challa is getting his black behind bruised. So good to see the cream of the HEF crop representing at the CBR now, which is all I ever wanted. Since my resurrection, I've been "lurking" there and am very pleased with what I've seen. Jenn is there. Oh lordy  ;)

I want to greet my brothers after so long a time away; the iridescent, irrerepressible Mastrmynd and the one, the only, the inimitable Supreme Illuminati.
Mr. MajestiK, I like your style. You are the wiser, calmer, more articulate second coming of sinjection to "that other place". You do me proud.

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2010, 07:10:07 am »
Blade isn't an A-lister; isn't even close.  

I'm not saying BP (Reggie's version) can't be popular to some audiences, but not the mass media character Spiderman and Superman are.
A good movie and a good cartoon would take care of that. Blade isn't an A-lister simply because Marvel hasn't used him properly not because him not having a wide appeal to the masses.


I agree with this. Its comical, or should I say criminal, how badly Marvel has mishandled Blade after the movies gave them a golden opportunity with his character. Don't get me wrong, I like the Punisher and enjoyed both films, but neither was as good as the first two Blade movies, yet Punisher continues to get star treatment, while Blade has been treated half-heartedly at best, and that was when the movies were still coming out. The Guggenheim series just didn't cut it, though it started out with a bang. And Blade barely got a chance to shine in MI-13 before that got cancelled. Compare that to Punisher, with the great Ennis run, now Jason Aaron, and even the stupid "Frankencastle" arc from Remender. He's still getting a major push.

....About black writers writing black comic characters. I have mixed feelings about it. I think because of the difficulty many whites (and white writers) IMO have in seeing black people as fully human, 3-D beings, too many have trouble giving black characters their due. They can't, or don't want to identify with black people, perhaps on a subconscious level, so they can't really get the characters they are writing. So the resort to stereotypes or a 'white' idea of what a black person is or should be. The black character has to go through a white racial filter where maybe certain things are overemphasized with the character over others. That can result in too negative or too positive characterization, or characters that are ciphers or whose lives resolve around white characters. I think this is a less likely occurrence with black writers, but at the same time, some blacks have put out stereotypical stuff too.

I wouldn't be comfortable with the idea that black writers shouldn't write Batman, Spider-Man, or Superman, etc, even though very few have. So, I can't blanketly believe that white writers shouldn't write black characters, but I think they have to really work hard, or should work hard, at understanding these characters, their histories, and the ethnic/racial group they they come from and/or represent.

The realities of racism/historical and current in our society have created a situation where many blacks have to adapt to the majority white culture in order to survive whereas whites don't have to have much interaction, or can be more selective in how much interaction they have with blacks. That results in blacks having a greater understanding of whites than whites have of blacks, IMO, mainly because we have to. That translates into whites not always having a good grasp on black people/characters. And there is the tendency to de-racialize non-white characters to make them less threatening and more acceptable to white audiences.

Whereas with black writers I think it is easier for them to identify with and empathize with white characters because many of us have been taught to look up to or model ourselves after white people. Many of us have a Eurocentric mindset, or are acquainted with it so it's easier to write these characters.

I question whether Black Panther can be an A-List character, no matter if there is an attempt to de-racialize him. If the core white male fan base is reluctant to identify with and support black characters on a sustained basis, which I believe, I don't know if A-List status can be achieved. Particularly if the comic companies continue to tailor their product primarily to white males and don't continuously attempt to try to expand and tap into other markets. They might take some losses initially and some ventures might fail completely but I think you have to give a little, to get a little. And the comic companies need to continue or start seeking markets beyond their white male core group.

...I didn't quite understand what Ture was getting at before but he (?) bought up some interesting points that I hadn't considered. Not sure if I agree with all of it, but it made me think about things differently, which is a good thing.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 07:13:46 am by Emperorjones »