Author Topic: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.  (Read 104493 times)

Online Ture

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #150 on: May 27, 2010, 03:57:08 am »

My apologies Battle for not writing sooner. We share similar sentiments regarding Doomwar. I would like to write a treatment for BP and see how some of these ideas might work. Maybe I'll put something together for Fan Fic. Here is something else I was thinking about in my attempt to sophisticate the Black Panther.

The ritual for pantherhood would include detailed mental and spiritual components as well as physical. Not only must one be the best fighter but they must be the most gifted intellectually, and be selected by the Panther spirit to undergo a sacred ordeal.

The line of Bashango would be the longest uninterrupted line of Panthers in Wakandan history. Tchalla would have the distinction of being the first and only one to engage all challengers to the crown on the same day where as prior to him it was spread out over a week.

There would be five levels to Pantherhood, Tchalla would have completed them faster than any other in Wakandan history.

Tchalla wouldn't practice magic per se as much as he would spirituality. The tricks of the trade would be acquired through ritual and communion with the Panther Spirit. Somewhere between Dr. Strange (quantitatively speaking) who uses incantations and ancient artifacts and Odin (qualitatively speaking) who is the power itself. 

To M'Baku and the worshipers of the White Gorilla the ritual is sacrilegious, to others like Solomon Prey it is superannuated. Killmonger would find the ritual otiose.

Just a few ideas, let me know what you think.


I agree with you Francisco and co sign on Seven's suggestions about upgrades.

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Online Ture

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #151 on: May 27, 2010, 04:06:06 am »
Doomwar #4 was another exercise in futility that left me plagued with concerns and questions for our beleaguered Black Panther and his companions.

The Fantastic Four were utterly useless and thus far unnecessary. They brought absolutely nothing to the table. With the exception of Nightcrawler teleporting Tchalla and Shuri neither did the Xmen. Hell, they didn't even bother to show up after issue two. Deadpool didn't high tech his way into Doom's castle via his teleportation device, no sir. He uses the old fashioned disguised my self as a gypsy to get past the guards routine. He made it look easier than the Punisher did years ago. Again this was superfluous.

A couple of questions that begs the asking are... Why hasn't Tchalla called in some of his eighty thousand troops? Where are the Hatut Zeraze and their much needed cloaking technology? Without cloaks you're just wasting Dora Milaje. Doomwar could have easily been done utilizing just the characters from Black Panther. It would have made the story more personal and given a greater sense of authenticity to war between Tchalla and Victor.

The best thing about Doomwar #4 for Tchalla was the alternate Heroic Age cover. If I have to see another picture of Tchalla hunched over face down, while his less experienced, intellectually inferior younger sister explains warfare to him I don't know what I'll do. The writer and editors are bitching Tchalla, threatening his marriage and decimating his nation. And for what?  To give us Doomwar. The only reason that is plausible to me lies in the way Reg (and Priest before him) wrote Black Panther. Tchalla an indomitable genius, physically peak human (perhaps super human) prep master who is almost always triumphant (as a hero is supposed to be), married to the powerful and unremitting Storm, while living in an unconquered Afrakan country that happens to be one of the most advanced nations on earth. I think a few somebodies were not very satisfied with these happenings and decided not tolerate it any longer. They probably surmised the best way to dismantle the Black Panther was to have him fight the unbeatable foe. They concocted a story line, hired a writer and gave us Doomwar.

For all those who complained about Reg not adhering to continuity where are those voices now that Doomwar ignores the fact that Wakanda could take Latveria, which means taking Doom.
 
I keep reading how the Black Panther needs this challenge. How he needs a villain by which to measure himself by. If the converse is true then Doom is being jipped big time.

What is meant by Wakanda's cultural arrogance? How did it bring them to the brink?

Why aren't Tchalla and Ororo King and Queen respectively?  Shuri was not sanctioned by the Panther spirit. Tchalla has fully recovered from his injuries and he and Ororo are still married.

Why the focus on Shuri? At best she is a good support character with some potential.

Why does Shuri refer to Ben and Johnny as Mr. Grim and Mr. Storm while she (a princess regent) is called by her first name?

Is Tchalla's only hope of winning this war tackling Victor through an open door that leads to another universe?

Aside from Scott Eaton's great art work and Maberry's well written Doom I am left with nothing but questions.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 01:54:58 pm by Ture »
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Offline sinjection1

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #152 on: May 27, 2010, 12:39:44 pm »
"Giving a Power Ring to John Stewart is like giving an old lady the keys to the Batmobie." I happened upon this ridiculous comment while scanning opinions posted to that other forum. The Green Lantern "fan" who owns the comment either didn't read or did read and chose to disregard Hal Jordan's observations that of Earth's 4 Green Lanterns: Stewart, Kyle Rayner, Guy Gardner, and himself (Golden Age Lantern Alan Scott was not mentioned) John Stewart's Ring creations are the most sound and solid; in addition, Hal Jordan declares John Stewart to be the best flyer in the entire Green Lantern Corps, an intergalactic organization comprised of thousands of members.

And yet, in the opinion of more than a few members of the larger comicbook-reading demographic, John Stewart is somehow less deserving than Rayner and Gardner of wielding a Power Ring. Many of those same members are likely of the opinion that Jericho Drumm's ascension to Sorcerer Supreme is just so much Affirmative Action nonsense placing the under-qualified Drumm in a position best served by the white Dr. Stephen Strange. I see DC's character Firestorm is once again a white male, the black male relegated to the subordinate position/condition.

Any opinion holding that John Stewart is unqualified to wield a Power Ring obviously has no basis in fact. Hal Jordan - who most might claim to be the greatest Green Lantern - has conceded that Stewart's Ring constructs are more solid than his own and that Stewart is not only superior to him as a flyer, but is the best of the entire Corps. That "fan's" opinion stems from the type of prejudice and bias which all too often is the basis for the obnoxious, inaccurate, stupid comments which serve to diminish not only John Stewart, but Doctor Voodoo, Blade, Bishop, and many other Black comicbook characters.

T'Challa, the Black Panther and Wakanda have perhaps suffered most of all. The character has been misused and maligned throughout his existence. Keep bringing it strong, Ture. Your comments as always, are right on point.
Mr. MajestiK, I like your style. You are the wiser, calmer, more articulate second coming of sinjection to "that other place". You do me proud.

Offline The Cat

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #153 on: May 27, 2010, 12:48:34 pm »
Interesting post Ture. I made a rant over at cbr pretty much about the same thing...  ;)

I'm got to admit that I'm almost done with Marvel. I do salute those African writers who have tried to bring Marvel into the 21st Century, despite the constant problems which came there way. But it is always difficult to engage and change the personalty of a thing, when it was devised to uphold and reinforce another peoples culture.

It's a shame really that the Milestone effort from a few years age was not able to get more fans. Because when it comes down to how we are presented in this medium. The only way we are going to see the whole gamut of the African experience, is when a book is written by a intelligent African Man or Woman ( and I  am not talking about those of us who have developed "isms"  >:( )

Offline sinjection1

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #154 on: May 27, 2010, 01:23:15 pm »
The Fantastic Four were utterly useless and thus far unnecessary. They brought absolutely nothing to the table.

Aside from preventing Shuri from committing suicide by Namor, Richards was able to defeat Doom's/Declun's video ruse which had Shuri and her team chasing shadows. Richards was able to show Shuri Namor had been framed. Richards, Thing, and Torch did accompany Namor, Shuri and her team to confront Declun's diversionary team and presently, while Richards assists T'Challa in strategy  ::) the Invisible Girl has joined the Torch and the Thing in fighting alongside Shuri, Storm, and the Dora Milaje against Doom's foot soldiers.

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With the exception of Nightcrawler teleporting Tchalla and Shuri neither did the Xmen. Hell, they didn't even bother to show up after issue two.


Nightcrawler, Wolverine, and Colossus did contribute in the effort by supporting Shuri in engaging Doom's forces inside what had previously been the Desturi stronghold. Of course, and unfortunately, Doom had foreseen these events, planned for them and had already acquired the Vibranium before T'Challa was able to make his way to the vault. Maberry is writing an infuriating story to be sure. And he's obviously enjoying himself. Doom had better lose his left eye when this is all over. That's my thinking on it.

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Deadpool didn't high tech his way into Doom's castle via his teleportation device, no sir. He uses the old fashioned disguised my self as a gypsy to get past the guards routine. He made it look easier than the Punisher did years ago. Again this was superfluous.

Personally, I wish Deadpool hadn't been used at all. I've never liked the character, don't find him the least bit funny or entertaining and I can't help but feel that T'Challa has been even further diminished by having to enlist his aid. Maberry is writing a story the larger comicbook-reading demographic can thoroughly enjoy, but one which has rankled many hardcore Black Panther fans. The story shows a T'Challa in a position many writers with the exception of Hudlin have often put him in, which is getting the shiznit kicked out of him. Wakanda has been ripped apart by traitors and what many white fans have inaccurately remarked time and again, their "racist xenophobia". This isn't a Black Panther story. This is a Dr. Doom story and that is one very significant reason why so many in the larger comicbook-reading demographic are supporting the series.

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A couple of questions that begs the asking are... Why hasn't Tchalla called in some of his eighty thousand troops? Where are the Hatut Zeraze and their much needed cloaking technology? Without cloaks you're just wasting Dora Milaje. Doomwar could have easily been done utilizing just the characters from Black Panther. It would have made the story more personal and given a greater sense of authenticity to war between Tchalla and Victor.

Was the Hatut Zeraze ever mentioned or featured during Hudlin's run? Did Hunter ever make an appearance? I have to think those elements have not been added to the story for clarity's sake.

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The writer and editors are bitching Tchalla, threatening his marriage and  decimating his nation. And for what?  To give us Doomwar.

WELL SAID, TURE! Too many T'Challa haters love seeing him humbled, would love to see Storm leave her marriage to T'Challa childless so that (a) she can either become Yukio's lesbian lover, so that (b) she can become yet another woman in the MU (Yukio included) impregnated by Wolverine, or both. Black Power, Black Beauty don't sit well with many within the larger comicbook-reading demographic and that's why the Black Panther has been hindered and hated for so long.


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The only reason that is plausible to me lies in the way Reg (and Priest before him) wrote Black Panther. Tchalla an indomitable genius, physically peak human (perhaps super human) prep master who is almost always triumphant (as a hero is supposed to be), married to the powerful and unremitting Storm, while living in an unconquered Afrakan country that happens to be one of the most advanced nations on earth. I think a few somebodies were not very satisfied with these happenings and decided not tolerate it any longer. They probably surmised the best way to dismantle the Black Panther was to have him fight the unbeatable foe. They concocted a story line, hired a writer and gave us Doomwar.


The only way I could see the larger comicbook-reading demographic accepting the type of Black Panther you've described and married to Storm is if that Black Panther was a blonde-haired/blue-eyed aryan underneath his Panther's cowl. Black popular music has appealed to white audiences for decades. It has crossed over and once enough white artists mastered that particular Black-created genre of music, white audiences appropriated and expropriated the music. The comicbook industry was created by and remains dominated by whites. While the media has crossover appeal to many in the Black community, it isn't such that might sustain Black characters...Black characters who have we have seen, do not always cross over to white readers, unless that character is someone like Storm whom more than a few white readers do not consider Black, but an amalgam of all races based upon some stupid story written by C. Claremont.

I'd better quit. I seem to be on the verge of becoming "exercised".

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Aside from Scott Eaton's great art work and Maberry's well written Doom I am left with nothing but questions.


Eaton's artwork is outstanding. Maberry's writing is enjoyable although it is telling a story that hasn't left me with questions as much as it has left me becoming increasingly irritated.

[/quote]
Mr. MajestiK, I like your style. You are the wiser, calmer, more articulate second coming of sinjection to "that other place". You do me proud.

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #155 on: May 27, 2010, 02:50:37 pm »
Couple of points I wanna make here, guys.

Firstly, the Fantastic Four has never stood on ceremony with T’Challa and have always called him by his first name, so there’d be no reason for them to stand on ceremony with Shuri. And for her part, the FF are her brother’s oldest friends so she’d naturally afford them a certain amount of respect.

The Hatut Zeraze haven’t been an issue since Priest left the book. While they were shown in the Yost-penned Storm mini but that was plainly an error, since T’Challa clearly kicked them out of Wakanda during Priest’s run.

As far as Wakanda’s “cultural arrogance” goes, that whole “we hate outsiders lots” thing has hurt them more than once (see Achebe, Killmonger, etc).

While I can see that Black Panther fans would be raw because the character is not being exalted in the way BP fans like, but the Doomwar story is a good one nonetheless. After all, its not like Doc Doom is some ordinary mark. He’s one of the most feared villains in Marvel. This is what many on the net seem to be ignoring. Unlike B.P. other foes, Doom is considered dangerous in every book Marvel published and he is never defeated outright by anybody save Reed Richards (and Squirrel Girl).

While Doom’s taken over Wakanda by proxy, the Panthers took it back two days later. Doom stole the Vibranium. In the newest issue of Doomwar we learn that the Panthers and the F.F. are destroying Doom’s bases all over the world. Doom’s waxing the good guys’ forces. T’Challa got something for that too: an unkillable psycho assassin and a dangerous new type of physics.

This fight is not all that one sided.              

Offline 4sake

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #156 on: May 27, 2010, 08:36:29 pm »
To me the main prob. with Killmonger is that no one really ever really defined his power levels/how powerfully he really is/how they work.. If it was stated he was 40- 50 class or 50 to 75 class he would be really look at as a bad joke for the most part...
The Lord of N'Jaka village is no joke. (He is bad T'Challa) The thing is he never had the chance to shine outside of the Pantherverse. I think killing him off was a mistake. He should have showed up first in other books fighting other people (and doing well) and then appearing on the BP series as T'Challa's main bad guy.

I agree with KIP...bring Klaw back...

But also bring back Killmonger and actually define him...put him on the Raft...let him join the Thunderbolts or something...Marvel's version of Anabisi at the Raft...with 10-15 ton range strength (or more), giving Cage hell...like Anabisi on OZ....None of the Peak human BS...please.  He would be Superhuman...and a genius...and it would show why T'challa had issue with thim...That's part of the issue with T'challa right now...you have fanboys that continue to limit the dude, or place this limatations that they simply do not place on Steve Rogers.

I really wouldn't call what RH did as killing him off per say. He kind of dead & kind of alive at the same time imo.. (I also think that was best place to put KM for now).. Also he easy brought back & their already in story reason on how to do so (some of his followers give up there life energy put it in him & he go as new.. like in CJP run)... I would personally bring him back in the way CJP did but with a few MUCH needed revelations (not a recton).. The  revelation who explain why T'Challa has had so much trouble fighting/hand-to-hand-wise with a someone who really shouldn't be but a lil stronger than Hawkeye (who T'Challa 2 or 3 time as strong as with his Bast powers)..  

The revelations would be the Bat de-powered T'Challa strength wise during McGregor ( :P) run (explain he wrote T'Challa getting his ass beat ALL the time) & That only reason Killmonger can fight T'Challa (with full Bast powers like in CJP & RH runs) & not have T'Challa break off his arm & put where the sum don't shine is because more of his ppl who give up there like energy for to come back from dead the more powerfully he is..  Like if 10-15 ppl give up there lives to bring him back than goes from human/peak human to about Class 10-15.. If  20-25 of his followers give him there life energy Class 20-25...If 30-35 ppl then he becomes 30-35 class & so on..    

Also we learn that Killmonger had a 2nd/another Altar of Resurrection/Resurrection Altar build in the N'Jadaka village/tribe area in Wakanda.  Also another good idea imo is to have look at how lost to T'Challa & say that not way beat him & have got at him in a different way. Such having him focus on making the N'Jadaka tribe stronger & trying to grain favor with the Bast so that he have most powerfully tribe in  Wakanda & getting in the position the BP (protector/figure-head of the hold nation)..  

That helps both characters imo & add that with his intellect/charisma & its make KM all the better/cooler..

Villains only show up in orther people's if other writers find the character interesting and let's face it, the only BP villain that has become "popular" is Klaw.  The guy is so popular, 2 heroes have "stolen" his power--Songbird and the NW whose name slips my memory right now.

Maybe someone needs to re-establish Klaw as formidable, because people like him.

I agree..
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 08:39:02 pm by 4sake »
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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #157 on: May 28, 2010, 04:28:10 am »
<<The Green Lantern "fan" who owns the comment either didn't read or did read and chose to disregard Hal Jordan's observations that of Earth's 4 Green Lanterns: Stewart, Kyle Rayner, Guy Gardner, and himself (Golden Age Lantern Alan Scott was not mentioned) John Stewart's Ring creations are the most sound and solid; in addition, Hal Jordan declares John Stewart to be the best flyer in the entire Green Lantern Corps, an intergalactic organization comprised of thousands of members>>

Something to keep in mind; it is something comic book fans tend to forget, myself included.  Just because Hal said it, doesn't make it true.  Hal is just a human in the book who is speaking about a friend and someone he respects.  He can be wrong.  He could be downplaying his own strengths and he doesn't know each and every member of the Corps so he can't actually say John's the best flier.

If a Guardian said these things it has more weight.  If the All-knowing narrator says these things, it has more weight, but when a character says it, it's his opinion at that time (under that writer), but it doesn't make it so.

What makes it so is when nearly every writer of these characters writes them this way.  If they don't, it's not necessarily true.

(This is something I've been thinking about Wakanda; how much of Wakandan glory is reality and how much is hype?  But that's another post.)

Offline 4sake

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #158 on: May 28, 2010, 05:49:55 am »
Couple of points I wanna make here, guys.

Firstly, the Fantastic Four has never stood on ceremony with T’Challa and have always called him by his first name, so there’d be no reason for them to stand on ceremony with Shuri. And for her part, the FF are her brother’s oldest friends so she’d naturally afford them a certain amount of respect.

I can some what agree with this, but I all can understand why some ppl would have a prob with that because Shuri is not T'Challa ... So I see she wanting to called by her title by ppl she herself aren't that close with.. 

As far as Wakanda’s “cultural arrogance” goes, that whole “we hate outsiders lots” thing has hurt them more than once (see Achebe, Killmonger, etc).

I can some what agree with this, but I don't see how ''we hate outsiders lots/cultural arrogance'' has effected DoomWar/what it has to do with DoomWar.. ???

This fight is not all that one sided.              

Well currently come off as more sided then evenly match.. Also a few things are coming off as unnecessary, forced & inconstant..

Heres a few things that are & even used a few of you own examples :

the FF are her brother’s oldest friends

Inconsistent

Why is T'Challa telling Reed they lost contact with his friends.. Now I don't know about John, but I petty sure T'Challa consider Ben & Sue along with Reed as friends..Also it been show as such previously up to this point.. NOT a huge thing but still inconstant.

Doom’s taken over Wakanda by proxy,

Inconsistent

When did this happen? Because take over the house of T'Challa/T'Chaka/Panther cult/tribe DOESN'T = talking over all of Wakanda.. It (Panther tribe maybe the best/strongest), but their 17 other tribes that need take over for all of  Wakanda to be taken over.. Doom with un-loyalist help took over the Panther Clut not all of  Wakanda.. I think that a prob alot written have which they either don't get or know or understand that all Wakandans don't live in the Panther cult/tribe area of Wakanda/ that there other ppl in Wakanda beside the members of the Panther cult/tribe.. 

Forced & Inconsistent

That whole Bast/Doom convo

Bast characterization was/is way off

Unnecessary, Forced & Inconsistent

S'yan showing up out of no where just to get shot/maybe die/badly injured (again) Especially when one of the main prob./complaints with the BP book has having a stable & consistent supporting cast.. So ur answer to this is to maybe kill/hurt badly one of the few consistent one that still has alot to offer the myths.. Like I've said before if just want to kill off/ hurt a supporting cast member who story petty much done/does have alot to offer anymore.. Such as : Josh Itobo, T'shan, Ishanta, Zuni, Jiru & Omoro.. But If is dead I have easy/good way for Zuri & him come back.. If any write wants to use it I won't sue..

Forced & Unnecessary

Emps all of Wakanda/taking it back to the Dark Ages.. Are honestly supposed to believe that 2 of marvel top smartest (Reed & T'Challa) couldn't figure out a way to defeat the Nanites of another member of that top 8 (Doom)? That was just a lil to much for me.. But let go with it.. If there going then their should been a lil bit back & forth between T'Challa, Storm & Shuri deciding what to do.. Just a few pages & not the rush job we got thur the recap pages.. Now if T'Challa told go ahead & do because always make/build Big W tech better/rebuild the big W even better then it wouldn't come off as forced & unnecessary, but so far that not the case.. Atleast so far...
 
Inconsistent & Forced

T'Challa, Ororo & Shuri forgetting that they have other ppl in the nation that can fight other than the DM & mwany of there other allies   

the Panthers took it back two days later. Doom stole the Vibranium. In the newest issue of Doomwar we learn that the Panthers and the F.F. are destroying Doom’s bases all over the world. Doom’s waxing the good guys’ forces. T’Challa got something for that too: an unkillable psycho assassin and a dangerous new type of physics.

So those are few reasons this fight has came off one sided... Atleast imo

This I agree with...

While I can see that Black Panther fans would be raw because the character is not being exalted in the way BP fans like, but the Doomwar story is a good one nonetheless. After all, its not like Doc Doom is some ordinary mark. He’s one of the most feared villains in Marvel. This is what many on the net seem to be ignoring. Unlike B.P. other foes, Doom is considered dangerous in every book Marvel published and he is never defeated outright by anybody save Reed Richards (and Squirrel Girl).

I don't think any saying he  ordinary mark or that he isn't the 1 or 2 marvel villain in marvel.. Now Correct me I'm wrong but that problem many having it the way T'Challa, Ororo & Wakanda are being written..

For me personalty I'm at the point where I need this story to make up it mind on what it actually is.

Is it : Doom with the help un-HOT loyalist taking over the The Panther tribe for a few days (what being  written on the pages for the most part imo) or Is It : Doom with the un-HOT loyalist taking over all of Wakanda/the hole nation of Wakanda (what this story 1st mention to be & some what been said on the pages)...  Now if the 1st, then way T'Challa & Wakanda some what more tolerable, but if it 2nd it make him look kind stupid.. So personality i need this story to give straight answer on which it is.. If the 1st option than its been ok , but if its the 2nd this whole series has been half ass..

This is why : let say Doom with the Desturi take over Wakanda & T'Challa & etc took it back & are not going to war with Doom..  Then :

1. Where is the rest of the Wakanda Army/ground forces/front lines forces? (T'Challa now using the any his resources make him look stupid).. I love the DM, but Wakanda has got more ppl that are good at frighting then them.. 

2. Where is Ka-Zar (& the She-Devil) - the person T'Challa & Ororo singed agreement JUST for this type of thing (some try to take over either country & try to take the Vibranium).. T'Challa & Ororo forgetting that singed a agreement for this very thing make them look dumb imo..
                                           
3.  If Doom actually took over Wakanda then where are piss off leaders/reps for other 17 tribes? I know that they all don't get along time/like T'Challa all the time, but i this D & D taking over W are we honestly supposed to believe that no 1 wants to go kick his @ss as much Shuri does.. Honestly? Also this would be a perfect time to create some new characters that actually service a good purpose (Show who the leaders of the Lion Cult, Crocodile Cult & etc..What they plan to do about Desturi/Doom & them combining their efforts with T'Challa in some way & make references to old characters coming back (QDJ to takeover the White Gorilla at some point after DoomWar)...       
 
So the problem is not Doom being bad ass its T'Challa being written as if he's forgotten half of his resources is this actually supposed to be a War .. Now if this was more personalty conflict (such as Doom just take over the Panther tribe) then I understand T'Challa & some of the other Leaders/reps not getting together one this or Ka-Zar not coming to help out, but other wise this kind off...
 
I don't think Cage or Cloak & Dagger battle with him were rectoned in being Doombots.. (just mentioning)
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Offline 4sake

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #159 on: May 28, 2010, 06:43:09 am »


The ritual for pantherhood would include detailed mental and spiritual components as well as physical. Not only must one be the best fighter but they must be the most gifted intellectually, and be selected by the Panther spirit to undergo a sacred ordeal.

This have a problem with.. I like that for most part we know what set most of the BPs a part from each other & I see no need for everyone to be a genius/super genius.. The ones we know about (Azzari, T'Chaka, S'Yan, T'Challa & Shuri)

Azzari - VERY wise (maybe a combination his Panther powers & the way his mind work let some waht see the future.. more or less ), very smart, was married & used the DM.

T'Chaka - biggest heart, strongest physical (maybe) usually drawn to a bigger man than T'Challa who's listed at about 6'0/6'1.. So I'd say he was atleast 6'3,  didn't used the DM, married twice (N'Yami & Ramonda), has most kids, started the Hatut Zeraze.. Had lot of loss & death effected his life alot & his decsion making..

S'yan - the fastest/swiftest, not as strong his older brother, but made for with speed & book smarts (but not a genius/super genius either), used the DM, more than likely used the Hatut Zeraze also, I'm leaning toward never married, good father to T'Challa & Shuri but to T'Shan not so much.. Some times comes off as blaming himself for his older bro. death (which probably why he help raised up his kids better than his own one).. I'd personality reveal that T'Shan is the son of S'yan & Aneka.. Think Star Wars Anakin Skywalker/Padmé Amidala just without the death & etc.. Meaning they dated & like each other, but couldn't be together because of there roles/duties for there nation.. (I could go into more detail, but  I won't useless some wants me to/wants to know more)

T'Challa - wise like Azzari, but not as wise, big heart/nice like father, but to a point where it hurt him as it did T'Chaka, the best fighter/hand-to-hand combat, smart like his uncle, just at a super genius level/smarter (which would some what explain why they but heads at times) making him the smartest ever to be the BP, used the DM, married (but change the way they rules  of the system), I think wants kids & we know the rest 

Shuri- very aggressive, has alot to live up to, started her own group (P.R.I.D.E.),  some what uses the DM, not a genius/super genius, but average/maybe a lil above average in smart area..

So yeah I'd don't like the idea of them all needing genius/super genius or etc..

Also this is another idea of mine if I were to ever right BP for marvel, I'd make the BP before Azzari the wise.. Azzari's mother/T'Challa great-grandmother.. but that just me...   
   

There would be five levels to Pantherhood, Tchalla would have completed them faster than any other in Wakandan history.

This sounds interesting what would they be... Can you go into more details?




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Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #160 on: May 28, 2010, 11:25:52 pm »
Villains only show up in orther people's if other writers find the character interesting and let's face it, the only BP villain that has become "popular" is Klaw.  The guy is so popular, 2 heroes have "stolen" his power--Songbird and the NW whose name slips my memory right now.

Maybe someone needs to re-establish Klaw as formidable, because people like him.

I just wanted to point out for the interested that Klaw makes an appearance in the Dazzler one shot that came out this week.

Dazzer disposes of him in two pages.

T'Challa's arch foe, Ladies and Gents.

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #161 on: May 28, 2010, 11:28:46 pm »
This week's Doomwar quotable brought to you by...
Sinjection1 - “T'Challa, the Black Panther and Wakanda have perhaps suffered most of all. The character has been misused and maligned throughout his existence.”
and by...
The Cat - "The only way we are going to see the whole gamut of the African experience, is when a book is written by a intelligent African Man or Woman (and I am not talking about those of us who have developed "isms").”

Great post, to you both. I noticed a similar occurrence when discussing Star Trek Sinjection1. Due to the complexity of the plot, character maturation and developmental scope, DS9 is arguably the best Star Trek. When this is debated most of the people contesting the opinion have either a) never watched the show or b) only viewed a few episodes. Comments range from “I couldn't get into it.” to “It deviated from the original too much.” Being in a circle of sci-fi and comic heads who don't do PC some of them said they couldn't get into a black captain whose acting was poor. Black is one thing but poor acting is something you just can't accuse Avery Brooks of.

Sinjection1, what I am trying to emphasize about the Fantastic Four, XMen and Deadpool is that everything they did could have been done by the Black Panther or some other Wakandan. Some examples follow.

Tchalla could have prevented Shuri from committing suicide by Namor. That would have at least given Tchalla an excuse to converse with Namor.  The video ruse could have been handled by Taku, thus reminding Shuri and her scientist N'iix why Tchalla and his core of specialist are the best. Tchalla could have developed a means to teleport them into the palace or at least show them a secret passage.

I found little evidence of Reed's acumen in strategy. In the fight against Doom's foot soldiers in Doomwar #4, the FF with their much vaunted powers were not very effective. Sue was overwhelmed by two Doombots 3rd panel page 2. Ben was knocked out cold by page 4 and Johnny had to be saved by Storm page 1.

The XMen. Ahhhh, the XMen. They did some cutting, they did some punching, they even blocked a few bullets. Every little bit helps I guess. I personally think Shuri and the Dora Milaje looked more impressive. Again what the XMen brought to the war the Wakandans could match, even an underwritten Tchalla did as much.

Tchalla vs Mephisto, no help required. Tchalla engaging the Hulk, no assistance asked for. Tchalla vs the Silver Surfer no abetting. Any and all assistance required came from his own resources. However when it comes to Doomwar Tchalla's in a last desperate act must unleash... the N'Yami battle cruisers, no. The Prowlers? No. Some new technology? No. Deadpool.

The Dora Milaje army was never mentioned during Reg's run. Aneka never made an appearance. Are these elements making the story less clear?

They have already proofed those waters Sinjection1, just peruse the third volume of the Ultimates. In this the post racial era we need no longer concern ourselves with ethnic and cultural identity. Yes in this era our evolved sensibilities permit a dalliance with the genome. We can envision a white man being the Black Panther. After all a “black” child can be Annie. One day soon we may even see a “black” Kryptonian donning the S crest. Everyone reading this please know I am being highly sarcastic.

Being a little more serious, we started this confusion when we allowed ourselves to be defined by the misnomers and parameters set by others. For example, slaves were not taken from Afraka, Afrakans were taken from Afraka. These ethnic families (a few of whom are mentioned) included the Yoruba, the Ibo, Hausa, Fulani not coloreds, negros or blacks. This is something that the general populace, many of us and the general comic book reader/buyer may not comprehend the full extent of the complexities involved.

Like you Sinjection1 I'd better quit. I too seem to be on the verge of becoming “exercised”.

Hey Vic, I have to co sign with 4sake on your first comment. You are correct that Tchalla has removed the Hatut Zeraze from Wakanda but  Hunter being the loyalist fanatic he is, would most definitely have involved himself in something as serious as the war with Doom. As for the cultural arrogance like 4sake said “I don't see how ''we hate outsiders lots/cultural arrogance'' has effected DoomWar/what does it has to do with DoomWar? It is not about exalting the Black Panther as much as it is about keeping the consistency necessary for a protracted conflict between Tchalla and Victor. Tchalla's personality and demeanor, his preparation and cunning are all off.

Good points about Killmonger 4sake. Excellent breakdowns on the inconsistencies. In regards to the ritual I was trying to suggest some sophistication about how an advance nation such as Wakanda would choose its leadership. It would seem illogical if only the best physical fighter was chosen to rule. When I complete the outline on the five levels I will post them.
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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #162 on: May 29, 2010, 04:39:46 am »
<<Being in a circle of sci-fi and comic heads who don't do PC some of them said they couldn't get into a black captain whose acting was poor. Black is one thing but poor acting is something you just can't accuse Avery Brooks of.>>

You need to find other sci-fi fans.  The guys I've associated with (even being in a ST club) and while they're all white, most consider DS9 to be the best series of the modern ST era.  (The original always gets points for nostaligia.). But everyone loved Brooks.  I never heard a negative word about him.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #163 on: May 29, 2010, 05:25:46 am »
<<I just wanted to point out for the interested that Klaw makes an appearance in the Dazzler one shot that came out this week.Dazzer disposes of him in two pages.T'Challa's arch foe, Ladies and Gents.>>

Ah, Dazzler is Klaw's kryptonite, but this is why I said Klaw needs to be revamped.  Besides,  being beat all the time and by silly means hasn't stopped Dr. Doom from being the most popular bad guy.  (Most popular villains probably suffer from the same thing, especially since they're supposed to loose.  Remember Kazar beating Thanos?  Use of Doombot-style storytelling fixed that, but still it was written as if it was serious.)

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #164 on: May 29, 2010, 05:40:57 am »
Well, I'm also on the Trektoday boards and I see occasional negative comments about Brooks, his acting, and I've heard it said more than once that people, generally white I am assuming, who have said over the years that they couldn't get into DS9 but not adequately explain why they couldn't. To be fair, there are a lot of people, many white I am assuming, who loved DS9 and liked Brooks as Sisko. I also had a black friend back in the day who loved TNG and just couldn't get into DS9.

But one thing I've noticed keeps coming up from time to time at Trektoday is this idea that Sisko was racist for not wanting to go into a holodeck program based on a 1960s club that likely would've discriminated against blacks, or that Sisko shouldn't have African art, or criticized Sisko for dating only black women (granted the last two mainly came from one guy, on his website, whom I won't name; he didn't have much to say when I pointed out that every Trek captain, with the exception of Archer, and possible exception of Kirk, dated within their racial group; even with Kirk he was forced to kiss Uhura, he was being mind-controlled by the Asiatic woman in the Elaan of Troyius episode, and he had amnesia or something when he was Kirok and had a child with the Native American woman). But the one about the holodeck has come up on the Trektoday boards.

I've also read about criticism about Brooks interjecting and altering the end of DS9. The original intention was to kill him off, but Brooks didn't like the idea of black man leaving his family behind, expressed his views and a compromise was made, to send him away with the promise that he would return. Some fans, generally white, I'm assuming didn't understand why this was a big deal and seem to believe that Trek is a legitimate vision of the future where race doesn't play a role at all. I've never bought this idea. To me, Trek is a show about today, but using the future setting to minimize controversy. But some fans felt that Brooks was injecting race into the show regardless.

There has also been discussion of Sisko's acting. I think there was some moments that were odd, some facial expressions. I personally think Avery Brooks wasn't too keen on the character initially, but grew into him over time. When he shaved his head, I thought he took ownership of the character and Sisko became a great captain in his own right.

Race might have played a factor in all the anti-DS9 criticisms as well as the support. Sisko being black did make me want to support the show even before it really gelled. Sisko was the first black character to head a Trek show, and to my knowledge a sci-fi show, and one of the few to head a drama. Though DS9 has been off the air over a decade now, Sisko remains at or near the top in terms of a fully developed black character in sci-fi, and sadly, in all of TV.

There might have been other things besides race that led to anti-DS9 sentiment. Perhaps Trek fatigue, at the time DS9 came out, TNG was wrapping up, and then they went to the movies which ran concurrently with DS9. Also, DS9 barely had any time alone as the Trek series before VOY came on the air and a lot of promotion and attention went to it. Also, I think the change from the ship-based TNG to the station-based DS9 is a reason some cite for not getting into the show. They felt it wasn't enough about exploration, which shows that they didn't watch the show all that much, because it had a fair amount of exploration. I'm sure that some people didn't care for the DS9 characters, Sisko and the others, because they occupied more gray areas than the TNG characters, though it is this reason that I came to really like the DS9 characters. I also loved the Dominion and DS9 taking on issues of war, genocide, nation building, racism, religious fanaticism, etc. It was a show ahead of its time and was the true heir to TOS IMO. Another thing DS9 had to contend with was more competition, particularly from shows like B5. VOY and ENT also had to face stiff competition in a way that TNG didn't. TNG was largely allowed to build up an audience without having to compete against other genre shows, because there were very few during the majority of its run.

I can't help but feel that some white fans don't like Sisko because of Avery Brooks. I think there is a feeling that Brooks is too remote, that he's not all ra-ra about DS9 and that turns some fans off. He's not dissing the show, but he's not waxing poetic about it either, IMO. And when a black person isn't smiling and going 110% in cheerleading something, it might make some white people feel that Brooks has an attitude. I also do feel that Sisko being black turned off some fans. They might not even realize why they don't 'get' Sisko, but I think its because of the inability of some whites to identify with a black character. They can't see blacks as equals, as fully dimensional human beings. Some might be able to admire physical feats or singing or blacks abilities to entertain them, but they still aren't putting these people on the same plane as they are. And for the intellectual blacks, they are often seen as 'exceptions'.