Author Topic: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.  (Read 104226 times)

Offline 4sake

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #120 on: May 06, 2010, 09:45:37 pm »
The non-necessity of the Mayberry upgrade.

Let us examine a hero who epitomizes the upgrade, Iron man. Iron man upgrades made sense because the circumstances demanded such. Newly improved armors to confront Obadiah in the Iron Monger, to defeat the government's new weapon Fire power. To engage the Masters of Silence Tony invented the War Machine.  Conceptually the modular armor was a great idea to integrate new technology, it made sense. Other upgrades include the Hulk Buster (in all its variations ) to defeat the hulk (hasn't worked out all the bugs in that one yet.) and yes even a specialized armor to battle the BP. Upgrades that were pertinent and creative. Speaking of such.

Tchalla's upgrades under Priest were flawless. The vibranium microweave costume, the anti-metal claws, the vibranium soled boots, the energy daggers, the N'yami Battle cruisers and the prowlers. Reggie's contributing the armors (especially the lite armor) and the advance space program, were superb. These should be mainstays as they help to distinguish the Black Panther.

The upgrades under Mayberry's pen have thus far proved unnecessary. They were used for things thus far that Tchalla did on the regular. Smash Doombots and fight soldiers. Please. Remember Reg's BP#19. That was "Doomwar" in one issue. Excellent showing for Tchalla and respectful to both characters.

What new trick has Doom employed? None! But Tchalla needs an upgrade? The writer needs an upgrade. Stop all this BS. Dissention and uprisings among the Wakandans. Try a new approach. S'yan (a former BP) brought in hands behind his head, held at bay by one guard and huggin the queen mother like a beeyotch, only to take a bullet. Doesn't go down in glorious battle. He just goes down. Insulting! For the Panther God's sake...LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! (Cue Brittany Spears You Tube chick). I mean how much more attention can a high school sophomore get? All this at the expense of  the post graduates (BP and Storm) who should be the focus of the entire story.

Mayberry could turn this around on me (since we're only half way through) but as a practising Breatherian holding my breath would be sacrilegious.

I'm not against the upgrade. I have a whole thread (A-list thread) about it. its just as you said, T'challa has not really done anything new other the absorb the magic energy from the Wakanda mystics. But My issue with that is that T'challa could have just made a power suit with runes to protect him from magic. It would be the same as the upgrade without risking his life. I don't see t'challa doing that...or I don't see how men died trying this in a comic world where T'challa has far more access to better ways of doing this.

It's not having the upgrade this is the issue, but the actual upgrade that is the issue. It seems just so limited. One ton and magic resist, but his Panther senses.


The best upgrade would make t'challa similar to a Jedi or a Bene Gesserit from Dune. There is a ton of cannon to support a upgrade. This sort of upgrade would actually make the upgrade seem worth it, without making him over powered...or without limited him like before.

I agree.. Also :

make t'challa similar to a Jedi How so & it what ways?
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Offline Ture

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #121 on: May 07, 2010, 09:25:46 am »
Glad we agree 4sake and like you I ask the ways and means to T'challa's Jediship.

Sinjection1 your last two posts only confirm my earlier statements of you. Like you and Seven I am not against upgrades. I stated previously that the upgrades Priest gave T'challa were appropriate because they were constructed to fit the needs of the character not a plot device for a particular story.

The upgrades from the Power arc have all the feel of filler. An empty insertion that lacks any true cohesion. T'challa is human potential reached. Don't sleep on human potential. All one has to do is take a cursory examination of the martial arts film genre. What the "masters" of meditation, training and spiritual development are able to obtain is nothing short of comparable to what superheroes are capable of doing. If T'challa's intellect, skills, tech and resources were focused on there would be little need for an upgrade. Batman (under the writer who comprehends who and what he is) is an excellent example.

A superhero needs upgrades when his powers have proved to be insubstantial. T'challa being taken out by Doom in Deadliest of the Species was circumstantial. As proof of such notice the absence of T'challa's  preparedness and counter measures. I think this is something Maberry has yet to address. It is not that he needed new powers, it is that the resources T'challa has at his disposal were not utilized. The upgrades T'challa acquired in the Power arc have proved to be thus far superfluous. Why? Because what Doom used to take out T'challa had nothing to do with strength or magic id est the upgrades. Lack of creative utilization of a characters powers is almost a hallmark in some comics. Superman (under the writer who does not comprehends who and what he is) is an excellent example.
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Offline Seven

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #122 on: May 07, 2010, 11:22:52 am »
The non-necessity of the Mayberry upgrade.

Let us examine a hero who epitomizes the upgrade, Iron man. Iron man upgrades made sense because the circumstances demanded such. Newly improved armors to confront Obadiah in the Iron Monger, to defeat the government's new weapon Fire power. To engage the Masters of Silence Tony invented the War Machine.  Conceptually the modular armor was a great idea to integrate new technology, it made sense. Other upgrades include the Hulk Buster (in all its variations ) to defeat the hulk (hasn't worked out all the bugs in that one yet.) and yes even a specialized armor to battle the BP. Upgrades that were pertinent and creative. Speaking of such.

Tchalla's upgrades under Priest were flawless. The vibranium microweave costume, the anti-metal claws, the vibranium soled boots, the energy daggers, the N'yami Battle cruisers and the prowlers. Reggie's contributing the armors (especially the lite armor) and the advance space program, were superb. These should be mainstays as they help to distinguish the Black Panther.

The upgrades under Mayberry's pen have thus far proved unnecessary. They were used for things thus far that Tchalla did on the regular. Smash Doombots and fight soldiers. Please. Remember Reg's BP#19. That was "Doomwar" in one issue. Excellent showing for Tchalla and respectful to both characters.

What new trick has Doom employed? None! But Tchalla needs an upgrade? The writer needs an upgrade. Stop all this BS. Dissention and uprisings among the Wakandans. Try a new approach. S'yan (a former BP) brought in hands behind his head, held at bay by one guard and huggin the queen mother like a beeyotch, only to take a bullet. Doesn't go down in glorious battle. He just goes down. Insulting! For the Panther God's sake...LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! (Cue Brittany Spears You Tube chick). I mean how much more attention can a high school sophomore get? All this at the expense of  the post graduates (BP and Storm) who should be the focus of the entire story.

Mayberry could turn this around on me (since we're only half way through) but as a practising Breatherian holding my breath would be sacrilegious.

I'm not against the upgrade. I have a whole thread (A-list thread) about it. its just as you said, T'challa has not really done anything new other the absorb the magic energy from the Wakanda mystics. But My issue with that is that T'challa could have just made a power suit with runes to protect him from magic. It would be the same as the upgrade without risking his life. I don't see t'challa doing that...or I don't see how men died trying this in a comic world where T'challa has far more access to better ways of doing this.

It's not having the upgrade this is the issue, but the actual upgrade that is the issue. It seems just so limited. One ton and magic resist, but his Panther senses.


The best upgrade would make t'challa similar to a Jedi or a Bene Gesserit from Dune. There is a ton of cannon to support a upgrade. This sort of upgrade would actually make the upgrade seem worth it, without making him over powered...or without limited him like before.

I agree.. Also :

make t'challa similar to a Jedi How so & it what ways?

The only reason I am for the Upgrade is to shut up people from doubting everyting T'challa does...with "he should not be able to do that" nonsense. it talks away from the great things he has done, with total focus on what he can't and should not be able to do. He always viewed with limitations.

I just think that a jedi/Bene Gesserit is the best.

Look up Bene Gesserit. You will get a idea of there powers. It's nothing drastic...they just seem like witches, because they do things that make you go wtf.

T'challa has always been sort of Jedi like, without the telekinetic powers. But writers simply ignored it...his powers were suppose to be based on his will and spirit.  So like a Jedi he should be able to sense things, and also when he wants in small burst move very fast.

But the best upgrade would simply be Bene Gesserit-like.

Other Memory (being able to take knowledge from other BP)
The Voice
Petit perception
Truthsaying
Simulflow
Prana-bindu training and the weirding way (fighting style, speed, strength and agility)
Internal organic-chemical control
Sexual talents

etc...etc...something like this...


Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #123 on: May 07, 2010, 11:34:37 am »
Mastrmynd and Supreme! My brothers are here.

Supreme, you are a mainstay of the HEF and we are all best served by your presence here. There is no doubt in my mind that if necessary and if you chose to do so, you could post to the CBR or any other forum and deliver a payload of righteous knowledge the magnitude of which would shock good sense into the most obtuse, pretentious, ignorant and arrogant fanboy/fangirl regular there. Opinions and interests of most HEF members are being very ably represented at the CBR by a number of excellent posters. The crew there is more than holding it down. 4Sake, Vic, and Jenn are consistently strong and accurate with their comments. Daoud is never too far away from those topics of interest to most of us to make timely contributions. Umbra, Shadey, RolandJP...I want them to know sinjection is a big fan. They comport themselves with intelligence and with a coolness that frustrates all attempts by any CBR member to bait them into silly, pointless confrontation. What we can do here for our friends at the CBR and elsewhere is to continue with our exchanges. Our discussions could function as an information resource for them. BTW, thank you 4Sake. It completely slipped my mind that Magneto fathered Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. The male mutant can also pass the mutant gene to his offspring.


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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #124 on: May 07, 2010, 01:01:13 pm »
However,in defense of some of the things we've seen in DW...

I am not at all appalled to see DOOM winning so handily the initial engagements v BP and placing BP in such dire peril.Simply put,this unprecedented success by an arch-enemy of such weight,power,reputation and brilliance as DOOM is purely grounds for an even more stunning victory by SHURI,TCHALLA,STORM and the band of heroes whom they've selected to overcome DOOM.

DW has been a textbook example of how a dramatic story should be told. The Prelude To DOOMWAR provided the set up and earliest action events. DW 1, 2, & 3 is taking the action towards the climax. All successful dramatic stories satisfy each of the necessary structural stages ending of course, with the resolution of the story. I'm still optimistic that the resolution of this story will be very favorable for every Black Panther, Storm, Shuri, Wakanda fan.

It's the nature of the events comprising the early stages of the story to this point which have chafed so many of us. I give Doom his props; he is an arch-villian at the apex of the MU. I understand that a good story should make the observer develop the customary feelings of antagonism for the bad guy, and goodwill for the hero. In this instance however, a story is developing where the villain of the piece is not only portrayed as infinitely more prepared as he has outmaneuvered and outclassed the heroes from the word go, the characterization of Doom has been such that his villainy is debatable.

This entire post is yet another example of sinjection's piercing intellect,his sure suasion borne from his lucid logic...and I completely respect this perspective that he offers here.Now my response here is sooo thoroughly subjective,that many who don't agree with me or see where I'm coming from could be and I think should be forgiven,but I think that any practicing martial artist--including the Hall of Fame inductee author of DOOMWAR,our very own JM--will feel me on this.

I was teaching clients of my ATACX GYM shortly after my post to sinjection detailing portions of the reasons why I have no problem with DOOM handily winning the early rounds in his confrontation with TCHALLA,WAKANDA and the assembled heroes at large,when in walks this crew of bruthas including in their number an impressively muscled brutha about 6'4" and 255 pounds of solid,striated sinew.He exuded that deep confidence and alpha-alpha male aura of the proven,experienced,skilled combatant and predator.I peeped him out of the corner of my eye as his boi from his crew (a young dude in his late 20's of similar height but only about 215 pounds,and whom I'd had occassion to physically remonstrate with regarding using excessive force when sparring with a comparatively new FEMALE client of mine literally 100 pounds lighter and 8 inches shorter after warning him FIVE TIMES regarding that behaviour with other clients of mine in the space of a week,then finally expelling him from my gym and returning his money to him) pointed me out.This NFL linebacker type brutha nodded once,observed me teach my client the shoulder roll off of the jab,then moved directly toward me when I finished.

As I turned to face him,he asked me only one question:"Did you kick (I'M DELIBERATELY NOT USING THE NAME OF THE BRUTHA WHOM I EXPELLED OUT OF MY GYM FOR LIABILITY REASONS,NOT BECAUSE I HAVE A SPECIAL CONCERN FOR PROTECTING HIS ANONYMITY) out of here?"

"Yes..." was all I had time to say before he bull rushed me with a double leg.I sprawled and helicoptered (the spin you use to go directly to your opponent's back from a sprawl without touching your feet on the ground.It's much faster than the regular method of spinning to your opponent's back).This huge brutha spun beneath me like a sabertooth tiger and somehow prevented me from getting his back,while seizing me with huge strength and literally throwing me away like he was doing a chest pass with a medicine ball.I snapped a back tuck mid-air,landed on my feet and we went at it hard and fast.Bare knuckle.No protective equipment.Old skool style.

Even at age 40--yes I'm 40--I usually enjoy a significant quickness and speed advantage over most people.I can still pull off a nearly 2 minute 800 meter and a sub 4.5 40 meter sprint.I can both bench press double my bodyweight and squat quadruple my bodyweight for reps,and I almost never lift steel.This kid was 10 years my junior and 100 pounds heavier,plus 7-8 inches taller.Par for the course for me,I've beaten guys like this mucho times.Nothing new there.What WAS new was when this dude smoothly transformed a shotgun jab he fired and which I barely eluded into a rolling downward backfist which cracked me just under my left ear and across my carotid.Another new thing was how he transformed his backfist into a neck tie and slammed a knee into my chest that--even though I barely blocked it--was delivered with such explosive power that it literally knocked me backwards off of my feet and snatched me out of his own grip.This guy was every bit as quick as I am,and that was every bit as disconcerting as seeing that this guy had a strong traditional martial arts background that covered the easily exploitable holes that most guys with MMA training--which he also had--leave wide open and which I'm used to exploiting.While I was enjoying the pain shooting down my neck from his backfist and the shortness of breath and fiery pain caused by his knee,he removed all doubt about his traditional martial arts background by firing a wicked knife kick at my groin which I barely managed to avoid,which set me up for a cold Muay Thai shin kick to the body which I also parried but which delivered alot of trauma to my conditioned forearms and shin which blocked the kick.I barely slipped the following cross and literally had to leap away in a dive roll to avoid being caught by his same-side knee/spinning elbow combination.I came back with a feint-sidekick to his knee which he dismissively blocked MT style,followed with a back kick that he not only waved away but nearly caught me in a standing achilles lock for even trying,I jumped over his attempt to shin kick my standing leg while running me backwards toward the gym wall and disengaged his hold on my foot with a kenpo technique called Breaking the Fetters and his answering hook missed ripping my head off by a quarter second.I'd angled myself to take advantage of the momentum he built up while running me toward the wall to either avoid the wall entirely or use the rebound to my advantage but he read me perfectly and stopped my attempted diagonal escape with another beautiful shin kick which I mostly parried but which still opened up my forehead.I took that momentum and the slamming energy of me against the wall to execute a double role from capoeira and a dive roll to put space between he and I but he was all over me with knees fists and elbows.I parried slipped eluded and countered with a ridgehand to the groin but he totally stopped that and countered with a handsword to my neck which I eluded.I served a left to his muscled stomach which scored,he countered with a overhand right which grazed me,I tried to toss him with a judo knee wheel and he wasn't having ANY of that PLUS he nearly tripped me with a foot sweep which I evaded,then he took me down with a left leg inside trip on my left leg.I countered immediately with a judo tomonage and thought I was going to take advantage and finish him but he executed a beautiful breakfall and rolled smoothly to his feet in a fighting stance,and immediately began moving in on me again.I started using my trademark elusive footwork but this guy was looking waaay too comfy tracking me down.He looked like a sabertooth on skates,huge powerful fluid quick smooth and predatory and I knew I was in trouble.

For the first time in my life,I'd been confronted by someone who was stronger,longer,just as quick or quicker,just as technically sound,possessed of just as deep of a combat arsenal,just as impressive with his conditioning so he could fight as long or longer than I can,just as coordinated,and mentally just as strong.I had ZERO of the traditional advantages that I usually used to quickly and decisively resolve matters in my own favor.After 34 years of martial arts training to overcome whatever obstacle,I was realizing under fire that I'd grown complacent with the physical,technical and mental advantages which I'd used time and time again to overcome my adversaries whatever their size and number...and I was facing that unpleasant sensation that comes to us when we're not only uncertain but deeply concerned that failure will have the worst possible consequences for us.

You know how I beat him? During another scramble during which we exchanged sidekicks,knees,heel hook kicks,punches,forearm smashes,elbows,and during which he blocked my 5 Swords (probably the trademark technique of my base punching and kicking art,Kenpo Karate) not only once but TWICE (again something which has never happened),this dude pulled off a jab,used a crescent kick to my lead left foot to almost sweep me,feinted a single leg and pulled off a Jon Bones Jones like spinning elbow which would have taken my whole head off had I not used my ginga to slide right under him while simultaneously slipping the elbow.I spit right in his face,then--off of a totally spontaneous movement borne from the fact that this dude had literally backed me into a corner blocking my escape--I used a Parkour style bounce off of the wall combined with Kenpo's Parting Wings to launch myself literally head first ( la cabeca in capoeira) like a human spear into his wide open face while his eyes were closed by my spit.This cracked his nose wide open and allowed me to roll passed him as his spine bent back like he was doing the Limbo under a bar.I finished his with a sidekick to the base of his spine and a full powered,full contact spin kick to his temple.He hit the ground out cold.

I calmly looked at the brutha whom I'd expelled,and told him he'd better get this dude I just beat as well as himself out of my gym right now because I'm calling the police.I put my cellie on loud speaker and let him hear the 911 operator answer the phone for effect to emphasize my point.Those guys evaporated before the police arrived,but I gave them every bit of info that I had on them including the make and color of the car they were driving,and every name that I knew pertaining to them.I also immediately moved my training location for the next 2 weeks.

What does this have to do with DOOMWAR? Simply EVERYTHING.

TChalla and the Wakandans had grown complacent using their traditional advantages over traditional foes.All of their foes-including DOOM--were constantly being trumped or at least nuetralized by Wakanda and TCHALLA because none of their foes had the wherewithal to change their games up enough to acquire a genuine advantage over the Wakandans.The Wakandans--unsurpassed in any field of human endeavor--saw no need to change what they were doing,as what they'd been doing was sufficient to repel any and all invaders of every stripe for 10,000 years.No ties ever.Wakanda slaughtered all her assailants,using her trademark tactic of leaving one foe alive to go back and warn all of his/her/their/its compatriots with words essentially reflecting JASON AARON'S run on BP during the Invasion: SEE WAKANDA AND DIE.Doom,Galactus,The Deviants,The Eternals,The Inhumans,SHIELD,the Zombie virus,etc. have all sought advantages over WAKANDA and all have failed,all were foiled by Wakanda's 100% foolproof methods.

Until now.

DOOM has changed things forever,and in so doing has changed Wakanda and The Black Panthers forever.Could Uncle S'yan have served that ONE DESTURI GUARD who brought him into the Vibranium room with DOOM? Yep.No question.But could our favorite redoubtable Uncle overcome DOOM,who was doubtless waiting and prepped for just such a heroic gesture from the man from whom TCHALLA wrested the Black Panther mantle? ABSOLUTELY NOT.Was our favorite Uncle aware of these factors? ABSOLUTELY. So why would our Uncle consent to be in that room with DOOM? Because he knew that his presence would provide options for Storm and Ramonda that they absolutely didn't have without him.Was our Uncle right? ABSOLUTELY.He saved RAMONDA'S life when nobody else could.

« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 02:01:52 pm by supreme illuminati »
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Offline supreme illuminati

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #125 on: May 07, 2010, 01:53:40 pm »
continuing my previous post...

Doom's pursuit of the Vibranium also opened his soul up to Baast,as this was the only way to pass TCHALLA's brilliantly fashioned final lock,and which could and almost certainly will have incredibly far reaching consequences in the future (who knows what TCHALLA may learn regarding DOOM in the future when he palavers with TPG yet again?)...as Doom revealed the oft-neglected noble antihero aspect of his character,in the same vein that Magneto is also a very complicated character who certainly doesn't see himself as villainous nor Charles Xavier as heroic.I think that this is GOOD for BOTH DOOM AND TCHALLA,because in appreciating and savoring this re-introduced aspect of Doom's being we can no longer assign DOOM to the convenient role of pure villainy.DOOM is not a JOKER or a GORGON,whom are both psychotic and irredeemably destructive...and TCHALLA shares a great deal in common with DOOM.This makes TCHALLA have to dig deeper,further,broader,longer and in newer ways in order to overcome DOOM...and so will everybody else.Because TCHALLA was pushed in ways that he never has been before,ways that will and must have permanent,far-reaching consequences for TCHALLA,THE ROYAL FAMILY and all of WAKANDA.

Regarding the EMPs that SHURI dropped on Wakanda? Trust and believe that they're special Vibranium tweaked TCHALLA designed mollywhoppers that were part and parcel of previously drawn up contingency plans,so they'd still be effective against even Wakandan defenses.Remember that TCHALLA told SCOTT that he personally designed much if not most of Wakanda's defenses,so there are still things that he can do that nobody else on Earth--ncluding DOOM--can do to Wakandan defenses.You know what else this means?In one stroke,J.MABERRY has reconciled a continuity conflict within the BP mythos: previously, TCHALLA was viewed as the sole designer and arbiter of hypertech for WAKANDA,a knowledge which he acquired after studying abroad in European universities.I always disliked that idea,and RH's idea that WAKANDA ITSELF WAS ALWAYS DA BOMB is MUUUCH MORE likely,and literally more in synch with history itself when you're seeking a noncondescending explanation for the fantastic existence of Wakanda.See,with RH saying that WAKANDA was the bizness and JM working that then having SHURI bomb WAKANDA back into the Dark Ages,what we have here is the opportunity to watch TCHALLA rebuild WAKANDA from the ground up...another indisputable example of his uberintellect equaling him with DOOM and REED,thus finally killing any argument of TCHALLA's position regarding him belonging in the Top 7 MU intellects (REED,DOOM,TONY,TCHALLA,BRUCE BANNER,HANK PYM,THE LEADER) and most especially in the Top Four (REED,TONY,DOOM,TCHALLA) big brains in MU.It should cement TCHALLA as in some areas second only to REED in pure IQ,and at least the equal of TONY and DOOM,if not superior to TONY and equal to DOOM in many areas with an advantage against DOOM in others.Combine this hyperintellect with his CA level or better h2h,strength,speed,agility,etc. and you have basically the premier MU example of the most balanced hero around.Kudos to RH and JM for that,seriously.Now TCHALLA has to be written more consistently along that vein WITH THE FEATS TO MAKE IT CONSISTENTLY UNTOUCHABLE CANON...

REGARDING THE UPGRADE OF TCHALLA...

Most of my opinion regarding that is in THE FIRST BP UPGRADE thread.I still staunchly believe that every component excepting the magic absorption of TCHALLA'S UPGRADE is FIRMLY within the realm of actual human real world performance and potential.1 ton bench press? Love it...except that the 1 ton bench is currently "merely" DOUBLE the current world record in the Bench Press.The Bene Gesserit idea was already largely made part of BP in the PRIEST run,and his hyperagility on par with or superior to that of THE BEAST's is canon.So is his hypersenses,being able to ferret out even astral forms,and beings IN THE MIDST OF TELEPORTING.I am absolutely in love with I believe VIC VEGA'S idea of LEVEL 2 SUPERHUMAN,that TCHALLA can do MANY THINGS AT ONCE AT A NEAR SUPERHUMAN-PEAK HUMAN ABILITY,and that THIS COMPREHENSIVE ABILITY ALONE IS SUPERHUMAN.I believe gthat he used the second and my favorite BATGIRL as an example,Jessica Cain.I think that TCHALLA is essentially a cross of CA,WOLVERINE,DOOM,BEAST,TONY STARKS (women love him) RAS AL-GHUL at his peak (which makes him better than BATMAN),with a taste of PROF X mindreading (ya know,from HAPPY PANTS PANTHER'S CLAIRVOYANT AND ESP POWER) which makes him utterly unique.I think that THIS TCHALLA is DA SHIZNIZZLE,and HAS NEVER BEEN WRITTEN.I think that JM and RH should've been given a chance to write him,and I think that it's HORRIBLE that they DIDN'T get such a chance...especially if you keep PRIEST'S BRAIN ANUERYSM.Even if it's just to find a way to eventually cure BP of it.I say again and again and again that PRIEST'S RUN being largely ignored is A GIGANTIC MISTAKE AND TRAVESTY which will bite BP in the ass unless it's not only fully incorporated but ingeniously dealt with,mined and explored while adding new stuff to TCHALLA.I think that a combo of RH,JM BP+DW,JASON AARON,EIRC JEROME DICKEY BP (yes I said it.Among other ill ideas,the idea that TCHAKA WAS NOT ENHANCED WHEN HE WHOOPED OFF ON STEVE AS CAPTAIN AMERICA IS VIIIITAL TO SECURING THE STRAIGHT UP ILLNESS OF BP,PLUS ESTABLISHING THE FACT THAT WAKANDANS LIVE LONGER THAN MOST HUMANS DUE TO THEIR HYPER MEDICAL SCIENCE AND HOLISTIC CULTURE,UNLESS THEY DIE IN WAR) and YOST'S WAP is THE REAL KEY TO MAKING BP PROFITABLE AND POPULAR TO THE OTHER FANBOYZ WHILE APPEALING TO THE NONCOMIC BOOK BUYING LARGER BOOK BUYING DEMOGRAPHIC.

I completely see where the idea that TCHALLA build a suit of magic enhanced/absorbing armor comes from,and like it too...except for two points:

1) RH already did that with THE THRICE BLESSED ARMOR
2) BP still couldn't stand ON HIS OWN in a h2h full on throwdown with DOOM because DOOM HIMSELF IS A SORCEROR.Yes,DOOM'S ARMOR enhances DOOM's mastery of magic in various ways,but DOOM HIMSELF IS A SORCEROR.That trumps TCHALLA's being a NONMAGIC WIELDER unless TCHALLA can PERSONALLY nuetralize DOOM's magic in a way that doesn't transgress on DOOM's specific uniqueness of character nor TCHALLA's uniqueness of character.The magic runes and absorbing magic is a very valid way to to go regarding that area.While we're on it? RH BP VOL. 1#19 showed that even DOOM knew that he couldn't overcome BP h2h or at least  that it was distinctly unwise to try,which is why he repeatedly refused BP's offer to climb out of his (DOOM'S) armor and scrap man to man.Furthermore the 2 handed frontal choke is a move borne more from crushing strength and massive arrogance than from martial skill,as the 2 handed frontal choke is child's play to disrupt when standing,even against very strong real world assailants.I broke this hold from a guy on PCP about 15 years ago.It's a hold that is especially vulnerable to speed,agility and technique...areas that BP that TCHALLA  reigns supreme in and has no nonsuperpowered/street fighter equal in the MU (as demonstrated by Jason Aaron yet again in the Invasion storyline).Recall my discussion with Jenn on this very topic shortly after RH BP VOL 1 #19 first came out? It birthed the YOUR BEST FIGHT THREAD,I believe...

My brothers Ture and sinjection,I think that TCHALLA being caught so thoroughly off guard is more than a little iffy myself,but I think that it simply underscores how hypercapable he truly is when he wins.Seriously.I remember suggesting years back that TCHALLA overcome WAKANDA...but I suggested that a BARON MACABRE AND SAY DOOM OR BARON MORDO (if he's alive) or SOME OTHER BAD MOJO MAJOR BAD GUY RESURRECTED TCHAKA take WAKANDA from TCHALLA as part of a plan and then TCHALLA and ORORO have to not only take WAKANDA back from the cabal but TCHALLA has to face and defeat in direct h2h combat TCHAKA.The consequences would be gigantic,and this idea predated THOR slaying his grandfather BY YEARS.We see how THOR killing BOR his grandfather impacted THOR...there's NO REASON for such a thing to not have a similar,Wakandan spun impact on TCHALLA.Remember how AFRO SAMURAI had to kill his father too? YEAH.I also think that TCHALLA WILL OPEN A CAN OF SMASHASSERY on DOOM,but I don't think it will result in anything like DOOM being maimed.It will be significant I'm sure...but it won't even be as severe as even Maberry planned,as I am given to understand that Maberry planned DW for 6 issues and it has been scaled back to 5.Not liking that,but I'll take what we can get.

I wish that each of the DW issues were DOUBLE SIZED.That way it'd cost more,sale more,and we'd STILL have the ORIGINAL story ideas that MABERRY had for DOOMWAR fully fleshed out...including subplots and whatnot.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 02:07:12 pm by supreme illuminati »
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Offline Seven

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #126 on: May 07, 2010, 02:25:15 pm »
SI...when I talk about the Bene Gesserit I'm thinking about you. All those things are semi-mystical...but they come from training. Which is why I think it would be great for T'challa and the Black Panther's.

It gives them something, and most of those things we have seem something very similar cannonwise. 

Offline 4sake

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #127 on: May 07, 2010, 07:25:15 pm »
The non-necessity of the Mayberry upgrade.

Let us examine a hero who epitomizes the upgrade, Iron man. Iron man upgrades made sense because the circumstances demanded such. Newly improved armors to confront Obadiah in the Iron Monger, to defeat the government's new weapon Fire power. To engage the Masters of Silence Tony invented the War Machine.  Conceptually the modular armor was a great idea to integrate new technology, it made sense. Other upgrades include the Hulk Buster (in all its variations ) to defeat the hulk (hasn't worked out all the bugs in that one yet.) and yes even a specialized armor to battle the BP. Upgrades that were pertinent and creative. Speaking of such.

Tchalla's upgrades under Priest were flawless. The vibranium microweave costume, the anti-metal claws, the vibranium soled boots, the energy daggers, the N'yami Battle cruisers and the prowlers. Reggie's contributing the armors (especially the lite armor) and the advance space program, were superb. These should be mainstays as they help to distinguish the Black Panther.

The upgrades under Mayberry's pen have thus far proved unnecessary. They were used for things thus far that Tchalla did on the regular. Smash Doombots and fight soldiers. Please. Remember Reg's BP#19. That was "Doomwar" in one issue. Excellent showing for Tchalla and respectful to both characters.

What new trick has Doom employed? None! But Tchalla needs an upgrade? The writer needs an upgrade. Stop all this BS. Dissention and uprisings among the Wakandans. Try a new approach. S'yan (a former BP) brought in hands behind his head, held at bay by one guard and huggin the queen mother like a beeyotch, only to take a bullet. Doesn't go down in glorious battle. He just goes down. Insulting! For the Panther God's sake...LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! LEAVE SHURI ALONE!! (Cue Brittany Spears You Tube chick). I mean how much more attention can a high school sophomore get? All this at the expense of  the post graduates (BP and Storm) who should be the focus of the entire story.

Mayberry could turn this around on me (since we're only half way through) but as a practising Breatherian holding my breath would be sacrilegious.

I'm not against the upgrade. I have a whole thread (A-list thread) about it. its just as you said, T'challa has not really done anything new other the absorb the magic energy from the Wakanda mystics. But My issue with that is that T'challa could have just made a power suit with runes to protect him from magic. It would be the same as the upgrade without risking his life. I don't see t'challa doing that...or I don't see how men died trying this in a comic world where T'challa has far more access to better ways of doing this.

It's not having the upgrade this is the issue, but the actual upgrade that is the issue. It seems just so limited. One ton and magic resist, but his Panther senses.


The best upgrade would make t'challa similar to a Jedi or a Bene Gesserit from Dune. There is a ton of cannon to support a upgrade. This sort of upgrade would actually make the upgrade seem worth it, without making him over powered...or without limited him like before.

I agree.. Also :

make t'challa similar to a Jedi How so & it what ways?

The only reason I am for the Upgrade is to shut up people from doubting everyting T'challa does...with "he should not be able to do that" nonsense. it talks away from the great things he has done, with total focus on what he can't and should not be able to do. He always viewed with limitations.

I just think that a jedi/Bene Gesserit is the best.

Look up Bene Gesserit. You will get a idea of there powers. It's nothing drastic...they just seem like witches, because they do things that make you go wtf.

T'challa has always been sort of Jedi like, without the telekinetic powers. But writers simply ignored it...his powers were suppose to be based on his will and spirit.  So like a Jedi he should be able to sense things, and also when he wants in small burst move very fast.

But the best upgrade would simply be Bene Gesserit-like.

Other Memory (being able to take knowledge from other BP)
The Voice
Petit perception
Truthsaying
Simulflow
Prana-bindu training and the weirding way (fighting style, speed, strength and agility)
Internal organic-chemical control
Sexual talents

etc...etc...something like this...

Interesting. I never look at it like that before.. 
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Offline The Cat

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #128 on: May 07, 2010, 07:52:31 pm »
Excellent thread, with a lot of insightful comments...  :)

Like a lot of you, I have had a few misgivings regarding the direction of the book. In the past we mused about the loss of "connect" which Hudlin gave us with his knowledge of the black/African experience. And we wondered if that vital element will still remain once the book fell into someone else hands. My first warning signs (and there has been quite a few) was the Wakandans using the word "sweet" in exclamation while in battle. And T'challa describing people as Savages. Something I have never heard any continental African express ( they like to use other words from there own traditions  ;) ). And I would never expect it from the fictional Wakandans. A culture which stretches back to Kemet (Ta-Merry) itself. A culture older than Europe, using the same cultural expressions of racist Europeans... I don't think so. I know theses are small details. but it's something that stops me from truely enjoying the storytelling experience... And that is of a futuristic African nation in the Marvel Universe.

I will say that I have enjoyed Doomwar so far, but it has dawned on me that it is a narrative that focuses on Doom and Doom ONLY! And T'challa is a secondary character in it. Hopefully in the next few issues I'll start to see a glimspe of the genius intellect that T'challa possesses, as well as some great tactical awareness which not only takes Doom by surprise. but cause him to have to raise his game somewhat. (Something you expect when you play chess... a game for two players) I know that if this whole series ends with a one page T'challa victory, that it will not be fittting considering the trials and tribulations that Doom has put him through.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #129 on: May 08, 2010, 04:25:29 am »
<<CAT:  My first warning signs (and there has been quite a few) was the Wakandans using the word "sweet" in exclamation while in battle. And T'challa describing people as Savages. Something I have never heard any continental African express ( they like to use other words from there own traditions  ;) ). And I would never expect it from the fictional Wakandans. A culture which stretches back to Kemet (Ta-Merry) itself. A culture older than Europe, using the same cultural expressions of racist Europeans... I don't think so. I know theses are small details. but it's something that stops me from truely enjoying the storytelling experience...>>

Not speaking so much of the "savages" term, but for "sweet", people made the same complaint about Reggie--he had the Wakandans sounding too American, too African-American.  While some of that was from hatred, some of it came from the same argument, Wakandan wouldn't take langugage clues from any outside nation. 

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #130 on: May 08, 2010, 07:29:26 pm »
Just as a quick aside, it occurs to me that a mini series featuring the Black Panther (Shuri) and the White Tiger (Angela Del Toro) fighting side-by-side and written as a collab by Tamora Price/Timothy Liebe and Maberry might be very interesting and could sell reasonably well; no Hellcat and Black Cat this time around - no kitties, just the big cats this time around. I'd add it to my collection.
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Offline Open palm

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #131 on: May 09, 2010, 02:35:54 am »
TChalla and the Wakandans had grown complacent using their traditional advantages over traditional foes.All of their foes-including DOOM--were constantly being trumped or at least nuetralized by Wakanda and TCHALLA because none of their foes had the wherewithal to change their games up enough to acquire a genuine advantage over the Wakandans.The Wakandans--unsurpassed in any field of human endeavor--saw no need to change what they were doing,as what they'd been doing was sufficient to repel any and all invaders of every stripe for 10,000 years.No ties ever.Wakanda slaughtered all her assailants,using her trademark tactic of leaving one foe alive to go back and warn all of his/her/their/its compatriots with words essentially reflecting JASON AARON'S run on BP during the Invasion: SEE WAKANDA AND DIE.Doom,Galactus,The Deviants,The Eternals,The Inhumans,SHIELD,the Zombie virus,etc. have all sought advantages over WAKANDA and all have failed,all were foiled by Wakanda's 100% foolproof methods.

Until now.

The disbelief at Doom's and Desturi's success feels like the disbelief people had at the successful attacks during 9/11. Nobody thought it was possible but it still happened.
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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #132 on: May 09, 2010, 04:10:39 am »
<<Doom,Galactus,The Deviants,The Eternals,The Inhumans,SHIELD,the Zombie virus,etc. have all sought advantages over WAKANDA and all have failed,all were foiled by Wakanda's 100% foolproof methods.>>

Umm when did the Wakandans ever repel Galactus or the Eternals? Or the Deviants?  I know BP has a plan to deal with Galactus, but doesn't mean it will work, so until the plan actually works, you can't call it "foolproof".

But your point about the Wakandans being overconfident is valid.

Offline Jay

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #133 on: May 09, 2010, 10:38:44 am »
<<Doom,Galactus,The Deviants,The Eternals,The Inhumans,SHIELD,the Zombie virus,etc. have all sought advantages over WAKANDA and all have failed,all were foiled by Wakanda's 100% foolproof methods.>>

Umm when did the Wakandans ever repel Galactus or the Eternals? Or the Deviants?  I know BP has a plan to deal with Galactus, but doesn't mean it will work, so until the plan actually works, you can't call it "foolproof".

But your point about the Wakandans being overconfident is valid.

Foolproof plan?! Aren't we giving Wakandan's too much credit now?  They have a plan to divert a planet eater? And they actually succeeded?! Uh no. And if so .... WHEN!?
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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #134 on: May 10, 2010, 01:36:37 am »
Agreed. One has to show and prove. That's one of the challenges with Black Panther. We been told Tchalla is on par with Reed, Tony and Victor but we don't see the same level of out put. All the varying inventions, mastery of diverse fields of science , physical prowess. We need to see more of it. When writers like Priest and Hudlin advance BP some other writer starts the dismantling process. The core support characters keeps changing, HELL the main character keeps changing. Spiderman and Batman support cast has been constant for decades. Forget upgrading Tchalla, upgrade his rogues gallery. Let's not forget from which humble beginning Norman Osborn came. Show Tchalla inventing the various armors, take us on a guided tour through techno jungle and impress us with something unique. Show us  the danger room Wakandan style. Show us Wakandans in space meeting the Shi'ar, the Brood, the Kree, colonizing other planets. Show the many sacred and magical rituals that allow astral projection, psychic protection and transdimensional interaction. Show us in grand fashion how Wakandans can defeat Galactus. Show us something without the humor, without the help of nonWakandans, without the pseudo legacy of wanna be Black Panthers. Show us Tchalla the one true Black Panther.

It  is not that we can't accept Doom getting the best of Tchalla it is the poorly demonstrated depiction of how it was done. Doom is better than nanites, that was 25 years ago. HELL some people don't believe 911's success was due to terrorist. They know it happened, they just aren't sure who to assign the blame to.

Kip has a point. With Wakanda we are given the opportunity to explore all the nuances of a culture that is free of the influences of the west. Let's explore and exploit that opportunity to its fullest extent.

Cat as a practicing Breatherian ;) it would be unethical for me not to warn you about holding you breath for something that more than likely will not occur.

Supreme Illuminati, as always great post however with your permission I would like to address your post after some sleep. It is 4:16 am where I'm at.
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