Author Topic: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.  (Read 99276 times)

Offline Jay

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #180 on: May 30, 2010, 06:16:36 pm »
I agree but I don't blame Mayberry. I blame Joe. Quesada probably doesn't think that much of the Black Panther hence the current Doomwars story.

I can see him saying ... Oh you got to have FF if Doom's going to be in it.

I think that's mainly the reason for Namor's and the X-men's disappearance in this story. Or why T'Challa not the main character vs Doom.

I mean .... "One More Day" anyone! 
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Offline sinjection1

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #181 on: May 31, 2010, 05:05:59 am »
 ???
When was the Desturi first revealed? The first mention of the Desturi was in Black Panther #10 written by Maberry wasn't it?

Now waitaminnit. It's entirely possible that I very well might have missed some significant thread(s) of the fabric of this story along the way but I'm trying to reason something out here. And please forgive me if I'm rehashing a discussion which may have already occured or is now in progress somewhere else in this great forum.

Many Wakandans, most certainly the Desturi and for that matter, a great deal of MARRIAGE OF THE CENTURY opponents sprinkling the larger comicbook-reading demographic - not part of the Doomwar story to be sure but definitely sharing the same sentiment of those Wakandans and the Desturi - were/are none too pleased with T'Challa's love for Ororo and her love for him, with their decision to marry, with the fact that the MARRIAGE would make Ororo Queen of all Wakanda; with the fact that these events written by Hudlin and approved by Marvel's powers that be, would install Storm as a permanent and integral element of the Black Panther comicbook. For one thing, they disliked all of this because is seemed forced to them.

Much has been made of the Wakandan nation's so-called "cultural arrogance", their belief perhaps that the long-established circumstances of their eons of existence marked by independence and excellence prove them to be better than the "outworlders". The Wakandan nation doesn't need nor does it want for intercourse of any kind with the outside world unless Wakanda are the initiators of such intercourse. Wakanda will send its scholars and spies abroad to stay abreast of world and galactic events but it jealously resists and discourages any inteference or incursion by outsiders. All Wakanda has ever needed, prayed for, and accepted is the protection and when necessary, the intercession of the Panther God in matters concerning their continued existence.

Storm is Kenyan and probably Swahili isn't she? How much sense does it make that the ultra-nationalistic Desturi can despise Ororo because she is an "outworlder" - a Kenyan and a "witch" - but at the same time, take as the name of their "Wakanda for Wakandans!" revolution a word from the very "outworlder" Kenyan Swahili culture of T'Challa's wife and their Queen? Maberry couldn't invent a word in the Wakandan language (whatever that language might be) to express the same thing? No, possibly for the sake of expediency an African word was used to express a concept adopted by Wakandan revolutionaries. Nevermind that the African word is not of Wakandan origin, but derives from the very culture of the Queen hated by those Wakandan revolutionaries. If I were of the same thinking of those..."But it makes no sense to have Bishop and Monica Rambeau involved romantically. The romance would seem forced because they are both black"...members of the larger comicbook-reading demographic, I would say that Wakandan revolutionaries using a Swahili word to describe their "Wakanda for Wakandans!" insurrection is inconsistent at least, forced at worst.

The fact that Doom was somehow able to infiltrate this Desturi movement so quickly, completely and effectively without the leaders of the Desturi having the slightest inkling that something was amiss seems fortuitous for Doom and those of the LCB-RD thoroughly engrossed in and enraptured by Maberry's annihilation of Great Wakanda and his humbling of King T'Challa; however, speaking as one proud fan of the Black Panther and all things (or at least most things) Black Panther, I could see where the case could be made that much about the story Maberry is telling is forced, forced; forced.

Doom had better be seriously physically maimed when this story reaches its conclusion. Damnit.
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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #182 on: May 31, 2010, 06:22:19 am »
<<How much sense does it make that the ultra-nationalistic Desturi can despise Ororo because she is an "outworlder" - a Kenyan and a "witch" - but at the same time, take as the name of their "Wakanda for Wakandans!" revolution a word from the very "outworlder" Kenyan Swahili culture of T'Challa's wife and their Queen? Maberry couldn't invent a word in the Wakandan language (whatever that language might be) to express the same thing? >>

I suggested the same thing when this came to a head and got yelled at.  OK, I wasn't yelled at but was informed the Swahili is a native Wakandan language.

Offline sinjection1

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #183 on: May 31, 2010, 07:24:49 am »
<<How much sense does it make that the ultra-nationalistic Desturi can despise Ororo because she is an "outworlder" - a Kenyan and a "witch" - but at the same time, take as the name of their "Wakanda for Wakandans!" revolution a word from the very "outworlder" Kenyan Swahili culture of T'Challa's wife and their Queen? Maberry couldn't invent a word in the Wakandan language (whatever that language might be) to express the same thing? >>

I suggested the same thing when this came to a head and got yelled at.  OK, I wasn't yelled at but was informed the Swahili is a native Wakandan language.

Thanks, Kip. Now I wonder, how it is that Swahili is a native Wakandan language. How many dialects are spoken in Wakanda? We know how Wakanda is divided by smaller tribes and cults within its borders, but how many ethnic groups comprise the whole of the Wakandan nation? If Swahili is a native Wakandan language, how many of those Wakandans who speak the Swahili dialect have origins not in Wakanda, but from other places like Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania; etc... If the Wakandan culture includes the Swahili language, other dialects from contiguous African nations should be part of the Wakandan language as well. If that's so, why is it that the language of contiguous nations flow in and out of Wakanda but nothing else related to the customs of those nations seems to do so? How is it that unlike the U.S., Wakanda doesn't appear to have a problem with people from contiguous nations slipping into Wakanda and easily blending into those communities where their particular ethnicity and dialect dominates?

 Eager to find answers, I conducted a cursory search of the Web looking for all things Wakandan. I learned from one source that Wakanda is located directly in the middle of Ethiopia, Somalia, Narobia, Uganda, and Kenya. Narobia threw me. I confess. I probably couldn't name all nations on the African continent off the top of my head, many - maybe most - but not all. Nairobi, Kenya I knew of. I looked up Narobia and discovered that it like Wakanda, is a fictional African nation of the MU. It would appear that Wakanda has never been as hidden and as isolated as it has been presented all these years.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 07:30:15 am by sinjection1 »
Mr. MajestiK, I like your style. You are the wiser, calmer, more articulate second coming of sinjection to "that other place". You do me proud.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #184 on: May 31, 2010, 07:51:16 am »
Sin, I think part of the problem is Wakanda only works if it is a mysterious, hidden, unknown people.  The minute you take away veil and try and explain Wakanda as a real nation, it doesn't work.  Or rather, the mystique gets lost and contradictions and logic flaws pop up.

Offline sinjection1

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #185 on: May 31, 2010, 08:02:19 am »
Sin, I think part of the problem is Wakanda only works if it is a mysterious, hidden, unknown people.  The minute you take away veil and try and explain Wakanda as a real nation, it doesn't work.  Or rather, the mystique gets lost and contradictions and logic flaws pop up.

Agreed. I have always liked the Wakandan mystique that seemed to exist until very recently. Strange, interesting, and fantastic things can happen in Wakanda; dinosaurs still exist, Resurrection Altar, the as yet not fully understood and amazing effects direct exposure to raw Vibranium can cause, etc... But now we learn of this mysterious, hidden, unknown people that the Swahili dialect is not one of a foreign "outworlder" nation, but one which has always existed as part of the Wakandan language.

Highly-advanced, secretive, fabulously wealthy, militarily magnificent, and seemingly aloof of the rest of the world; Wakanda seemed to wear on the sensibilities of the LCB-RD, especially when Hudlin's writing seemed to make the nation and their Black Panther seem "too perfect". Now the LCB-RD is being pacified by this story written by Maberry showing the mysterious magnificence of Wakanda stripped away, their weaknesses exposed, their great leader humbled, it's female warriors carrying the fight to their nation's "conqueror".
Mr. MajestiK, I like your style. You are the wiser, calmer, more articulate second coming of sinjection to "that other place". You do me proud.

Offline Ture

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #186 on: May 31, 2010, 08:18:37 am »
The omissions in Doomwar are too blatant to be due to anything but correcting the "mistakes" of Reg's run. The unconquered nation, the marriage to Storm and of course Tchalla's one-upmanship.

Since its inception Reg's Black Panther gave us as a indomitable country. From issue #2 a narrative gave an account of why you don't mess with Wakanda. It was so in your face that it became infectious. The first meeting of the Illuminati was held there. Arguably the best part of the Secret Invasion occurred there. In 2057 “Wakanda is an imperial power steering the course of humanity's future.”

Tchalla and Ororo were happy in their matrimony and lives together. They traveled together as loving couples do. They made love habitually as loving couples do. They had adventures together as only super heroic loving couples can do. Tchalla and Ororo even joined the FF for altruistic reasons, not out of need or want. That's the kind of couple they are.

Tchalla was depicted with respect and being capable of holding his own against XMen, Inhumans, Ironmen, Skrulls and Captain America. This too carried over to other writers as evident in two historic confrontations. The first, a battle between Black Panther and the Silver Surfer and the second involving the Skrulls failed attempt at invading Wakanda. In both cases Tchalla's intellect, strategic and martial capabilities were showcased.

It was during Reg's run that Storm stopped being the sexual fantasy and exotic plaything of the XMen. She became a fully actualized queen of Wakanda and wife of Tchalla. In doing this Reg ruined the illusion that so many falsely surrounded Storm with.

These are the “mistakes” that Doomwar is written to correct.

You may rest assured that Tchalla and Wakanda will pay most dearly for this. Their retribution will be most terrible. Wakanda will no longer be the unconquerable nation. They will no longer be  the most advanced or the richest nation on the planet. They will be plundered and ransacked as have their fellow Afrakan nations. Tchalla will suffer humiliation after humiliation until he is a broken shell of the man he once was. Then and only then will he be banished from this existence. Storm, fair Storm shall be returned to her proper home and station among her fellow mutants. Lonely and feeling abandoned by Tchalla she shall seek comfort in the bed of as many XMen and woman as one could imagine. Shuri because of her ignorance and arrogance in helping Doomwar succeed shall be given a small pittance. After all it was she who bombed Wakanda back to the stone age.

These are the decrees of doom. 
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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #187 on: May 31, 2010, 08:58:43 am »
<<Arguably the best part of the Secret Invasion occurred there.>>

SI was anything BUT that.  In stuff I read before SI, the writer said, Wakanda could not beat the power of Skrull army so he had to remove the Skrull edge.  He took away their tech, ignored their shape shifting powers, and magic and had them fight a blade war.  This is a fighting style the Skrulls had no (little) experience in.  Beating that isn't impressive as it sounds. That might be a fine story, but it really shows the Wakandans as the weakest of the 3 nations.  (And he gives them 3 super-skrulls to fight; one of which has a weakness no other skrull seemed to have.  Other SS seemed to use multiple powers sets at the same time.  But BP can only beat his enemy because he can't.)

Now look at the other fronts in this war.  Skrulls attack England with multiple Super-skrulls, high tech and high magic.  England's magic beats everything about the Skrulls.  The enemy came in full-force and by making a deal with the devil, England wins.  and even before the deal, England was rallying around the reformed Captain Britan.

Then the US  fights hundreds of Super-skrulls, even a Galactus Skrull.  They do battle with space ships.  Then with only a fraction of the full American force (not even all the super-heroes and only SHIELD) they beat the Skrulls.  The Marines didn't even need to show up.  The US can beat Skrull technological edge.  The British beat Skrull tech n magic.  The Wakandans beat Skrull spears???  And that is supposed to be impressive?

The writers of those books saw ways for England and US to win without neutering and hamstringing the Skrulls.  But apparently that was the only way the Wakandans could win.  (Personally, I don't think so, but the writer apparently did.)

It was not a good show for Wakanda.

And being an unconquered nation isn't as impressive as it sounds.  Beating back colonial forces doesn't mean they are military equals to this European Nations.  It just means when they have the home field advantage, a small invasion forces can't win.  For example, beating a company or 2 of British soldiers doesn't mean they could have beaten the entire British Empire.  Or take the Nazi's.  Wakanda handly defeats their invasion parties, but that doesn't necessarily mean they could beat the Nazi's in Europe or that they could beat Hitler if he sent everything against Wakanda instead of only a hundred or so men. 

Now, understand it also doesn't mean they couldn't; I'm not saying that.  I'm just saying being "unconquered" is impressive only to a certain degree.  Yes, they are unique in Africa, but that just makes them mightiest of Africa, not necessarily the world.

If they want to show Wakanda as the mightiest, best warriors, then show them in a war against something more impressive than raiding parties.  (And that's all we've ever really seen.)

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #188 on: May 31, 2010, 09:42:15 am »
We've been taking about where Wakanda is supposed to be for ages here.  Kirby version was in a valley somewhere. I'm fairly cetain that in the 70's it was landlocked (which makes sense) Marvel is keeping its options open (because folks thinks its cool for them be seaside to have a Navy).

Priest's T"challa only spoke to the Dora's in HAUSA. Hasut Zeraze is (I think) Swahili for Dogs of War.

The writers want to use real African words when they can for flavor's sake. I see nothing wrong with it.  Better that then them making up a corny sounding dialect.

Certain aspect of Wakanda make no sense, certain aspects do. It really depends on what any particular wrter thinks is cool.

Priest separated the Kingship from B.P. dom. So even if T'Challa was no longer B.P. he was still the king.  Everybody else including Stan and Jack had it lose the costume lose the throne. The stakes are higher than way and face it, even in the Priest's run the only two known members of the Black Panther cult were T'challa and Kasper. So its not like the leadership of the BPC mattered ever. There nobody in the damn thing.  

The proper term for Wakanda is Isolationist. They don't care what happens to you and they don't want to care either. The central Wakandans, like the Royals are quite a bit more open minded. They let in Romonda and Venomm and accepted Ross. There is a strong Xenophobic streak among the Wakandans also. They tried to frame Monics Lynn for murder to keep her from marrying T'challa. T'Challa's fought Wakandan Xenophobes and anti tech factions since the silver age. Man Ape started out a xenophobe and became a separatist via retcon.

The Desturi needed arms and financal backing.  So they violated thier principles to get it. They just didn't tell thier followers. This is complely realistic. They just wanted to be in charge they didn't care how. They'd of taken arms and money from Killmonger but he's dead.

The Doras have been repurposed during Mayberry's run as T'Challa elite commandos. The last mention of the regular army has them quashing small pockets of Desturi resistors. So they're busy and the Doras are more fantically loyal to T'Challa anyway. If you need an explaination for why Hunter isn't in Doomwar, that's it. The HZ are fanatically loyal to Hunter, not T'challa or Shuri. They don'twant him anywhere NEAR this.

It intrests me greatly to see hom many folks are determined to find offense with what Marvel has done with Doomwar. After all not even Priest was invested in doing a Black Nationalist Power Fantasy.

Mayberry is doing 24. He's playing to his strengths. Dude's last project for Marvel was a Punisher one shot, his next is a Punsher Mini. Dude just really likes stories about folks running around shooting other folks.

We can argue about Shuri til we drop but the fact is that had Power been markets as a Dark Reign tie in folks would have bought it. It
wasn't so it didn't. The standalone non crossover issues of Reg's run didn't sell either.

As I said way back when all this started Marvel's only mistake was in not pandering ENOUGH. I'd of given Shuri's costume a bare midriff and ingnored all the resuting fan whining. I'd of had as many Norman Osborne apperance as the editors would let me get away with.

The mainstream fans ONLY read this book when there are crossovers involved. The Jason Arron arc was a crossover arc. Nobody would have cared about it otherwise.

And Arron used Storm far worse than Mayberry dd (she wasn't even in costume!) so much for cosistancy.

Offline sinjection1

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #189 on: May 31, 2010, 11:21:35 am »
The omissions in Doomwar are too blatant to be due to anything but correcting the "mistakes" of Reg's run. The unconquered nation, the marriage to Storm and of course Tchalla's one-upmanship.

Since its inception Reg's Black Panther gave us as a indomitable country. From issue #2 a narrative gave an account of why you don't mess with Wakanda. It was so in your face that it became infectious. The first meeting of the Illuminati was held there. Arguably the best part of the Secret Invasion occurred there. In 2057 “Wakanda is an imperial power steering the course of humanity's future.”

Tchalla and Ororo were happy in their matrimony and lives together. They traveled together as loving couples do. They made love habitually as loving couples do. They had adventures together as only super heroic loving couples can do. Tchalla and Ororo even joined the FF for altruistic reasons, not out of need or want. That's the kind of couple they are.

Tchalla was depicted with respect and being capable of holding his own against XMen, Inhumans, Ironmen, Skrulls and Captain America. This too carried over to other writers as evident in two historic confrontations. The first, a battle between Black Panther and the Silver Surfer and the second involving the Skrulls failed attempt at invading Wakanda. In both cases Tchalla's intellect, strategic and martial capabilities were showcased.

It was during Reg's run that Storm stopped being the sexual fantasy and exotic plaything of the XMen. She became a fully actualized queen of Wakanda and wife of Tchalla. In doing this Reg ruined the illusion that so many falsely surrounded Storm with.

These are the “mistakes” that Doomwar is written to correct.

You may rest assured that Tchalla and Wakanda will pay most dearly for this. Their retribution will be most terrible. Wakanda will no longer be the unconquerable nation. They will no longer be  the most advanced or the richest nation on the planet. They will be plundered and ransacked as have their fellow Afrakan nations. Tchalla will suffer humiliation after humiliation until he is a broken shell of the man he once was. Then and only then will he be banished from this existence. Storm, fair Storm shall be returned to her proper home and station among her fellow mutants. Lonely and feeling abandoned by Tchalla she shall seek comfort in the bed of as many XMen and woman as one could imagine. Shuri because of her ignorance and arrogance in helping Doomwar succeed shall be given a small pittance. After all it was she who bombed Wakanda back to the stone age.

These are the decrees of doom. 

There is very little if anything to dispute here in Ture's observation. This comment accurately recounts the general course of Hudlin's run. Black Panther fans were delighted to see Marvel's premier Black characters finally joined together in a significant, loving and powerful relationship while many Storm fans, most members of the LCB-RD, and nearly every x-geek offering an opinion on the issue were disgusted.

When it comes to squeaky wheels, the LCB-RD's wheels squeak loudest. Marvel and Maberry will do that which will best satisfy the wishes of that demographic. Ture's dire prediction for the Panther, Storm and Wakanda may be a prophesy to be fulfilled in a very short period of time.

Mr. MajestiK, I like your style. You are the wiser, calmer, more articulate second coming of sinjection to "that other place". You do me proud.

Offline Princesa

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #190 on: May 31, 2010, 12:07:28 pm »
I don't there were ever any plans of returning T'Challa to being Black Panther. If there were it would certainly be done now more than ever as Shuri has shown she isn't ready to carry a title. In the vain of Steve Rogers I can live with that--if there are T'Challa plans. We talk about Namor. A reason not for him to be involved maybe  is while he is T'Challa's friend he is also  Doom's ally. Doom has had his back for a good while now so maybe Namor is being neutral. If you recall Doom fell out with Osborn over Namor.

Offline 4sake

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #191 on: May 31, 2010, 12:32:55 pm »
<<How much sense does it make that the ultra-nationalistic Desturi can despise Ororo because she is an "outworlder" - a Kenyan and a "witch" - but at the same time, take as the name of their "Wakanda for Wakandans!" revolution a word from the very "outworlder" Kenyan Swahili culture of T'Challa's wife and their Queen? Maberry couldn't invent a word in the Wakandan language (whatever that language might be) to express the same thing? >>

I suggested the same thing when this came to a head and got yelled at.  OK, I wasn't yelled at but was informed the Swahili is a native Wakandan language.

Thanks, Kip. Now I wonder, how it is that Swahili is a native Wakandan language. How many dialects are spoken in Wakanda? We know how Wakanda is divided by smaller tribes and cults within its borders, but how many ethnic groups comprise the whole of the Wakandan nation? If Swahili is a native Wakandan language, how many of those Wakandans who speak the Swahili dialect have origins not in Wakanda, but from other places like Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania; etc... If the Wakandan culture includes the Swahili language, other dialects from contiguous African nations should be part of the Wakandan language as well. If that's so, why is it that the language of contiguous nations flow in and out of Wakanda but nothing else related to the customs of those nations seems to do so? How is it that unlike the U.S., Wakanda doesn't appear to have a problem with people from contiguous nations slipping into Wakanda and easily blending into those communities where their particular ethnicity and dialect dominates?

 Eager to find answers, I conducted a cursory search of the Web looking for all things Wakandan. I learned from one source that Wakanda is located directly in the middle of Ethiopia, Somalia, Narobia, Uganda, and Kenya. Narobia threw me. I confess. I probably couldn't name all nations on the African continent off the top of my head, many - maybe most - but not all. Nairobi, Kenya I knew of. I looked up Narobia and discovered that it like Wakanda, is a fictional African nation of the MU. It would appear that Wakanda has never been as hidden and as isolated as it has been presented all these years.

Confirmed : Wakandian, Yoruba, Swahili & English.. There a few others also more than likey..
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Offline 4sake

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #192 on: May 31, 2010, 12:39:11 pm »
I don't there were ever any plans of returning T'Challa to being Black Panther. If there were it would certainly be done now more than ever as Shuri has shown she isn't ready to carry a title. In the vain of Steve Rogers I can live with that--if there are T'Challa plans. We talk about Namor. A reason not for him to be involved maybe  is while he is T'Challa's friend he is also  Doom's ally. Doom has had his back for a good while now so maybe Namor is being neutral. If you recall Doom fell out with Osborn over Namor.

Good point, but it should be mention om the book so where if that case.. (Also around the same time Doom was doing that he also brought Attuma back to life to kill Namor because he knows Namor can't be control if Doom did take over world.)
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 12:56:09 pm by 4sake »
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Offline Open palm

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #193 on: May 31, 2010, 04:42:27 pm »
<<I am beginning to harbor a suspicion that T'Challa will "disappear" into some other dimension long enough for him to be presumed "dead">>

That part I am leaning toward as well.  He will trap Doom and be trapped himself.  Only Doom will get free before the year is out and unless BP does the same, Doom will prove his superority (even if he had nothing to do with his escape.)

I posted that idea of their disappearnce weeks ago. Hopefully it won't come true.
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Offline Princesa

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Re: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #194 on: May 31, 2010, 05:36:06 pm »
<<I am beginning to harbor a suspicion that T'Challa will "disappear" into some other dimension long enough for him to be presumed "dead">>

That part I am leaning toward as well.  He will trap Doom and be trapped himself.  Only Doom will get free before the year is out and unless BP does the same, Doom will prove his superority (even if he had nothing to do with his escape.)

I posted that idea of their disappearnce weeks ago. Hopefully it won't come true.


Hopefully this is not the case, just have T'Challa decide it's Shuri's time and he and Ororo leave Wakanda for NY/SF or wherever ...