Author Topic: Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.  (Read 127341 times)

Offline Ture

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Doomwar and the many "mistakes" of Reginald Hudlin.
« on: April 22, 2010, 01:27:50 am »
After reading the third installment of Doomwar I found myself drawn back to my first post "Epitomizing the Black Panther." Though the writing may be satisfactory the ineptitude displayed in the personalities (if such can even be said to exist) of Tchalla and Storm is deplorable. Tchalla lacks poise and confidence as Storm does depth and purpose. Both could be removed from the story and not be missed. The depiction  of Wakanda is unforgivable. It possesses no mystique, majesty, magic or uniqueness. It has all the depth of a "third world" country. Its populace is soulless and dimensionless. The writer may be trying to infuse so called contemporary Afrakan politics and sensibilities into the story but it leaves me thinking he lacks the rectitude to envision an unconquered futuristic Afrakan nation. The title of this comic is correct, this is not a Black Panther comic it is a Doom comic.

Let us begin by examining the following: the deposing of Tchalla by a fringe group that no one has heard of is outrageous and disrespectful. If the Desturi were connected with the Jabari tribe of the Man Ape or Killmonger's people in N'Jadaka city or better still to Hunter and the Hatut Zeraze .... this would give precedence and feasibility to such an attempt.

The untenable and blasphemous treatment of Storm goes all the way back to the Worlds Apart mini series and continues in Doomwar. We are supposed to believe that there is no moral outrage by the citizens of this "warrior" nation as to to her treatment, nor support for a goddess who is known throughout Afraka.

We are supposed to believe that the Wakandans assisting Doom are so dissatisfied with Tchalla's rulership that they side with an outsider despite centuries of isolationism (bordering on xenophobia) and self determinism. To add further insult we bear witness to a Wakandan calling Doom "my lord" as Doom not only tells him to get to work but says "it won't matter who rules this country, it will be a wasteland of ash and charred bones." And every one is alright with this?

Tchalla, master strategist and genius that he is, has his head bowed as his younger sister asks the X-Men for help. How much tide turning can four X-Men do? Tchalla is lured into a trap and nearly killed by Doom by a mere energy blast from Doom's gauntlet (this did not occur in Doomwar but is the catalyst for it). Couldn't Tchalla dodge it? What happened to the vibranium microweave of his habit? Reg a little help here. Tchalla could not get rid of a nanite infestation nor fully explain how he was able to avoid such.

PERHAPS THE MOST AGGRIEVOUS ACT WAS ANNOUCING THAT AFTER TEN THOUSAND YEARS OF WAKANDANS EXPLORING THE SECRETS OF VIBRANIUM, THEY NEVER MASTERED THE SECRET OF USING MAGICALLY CHARGED VIBRANIUM... BUT DOOM HAS!!!

All this occurs in the first issue.

Where is the advanced technology Wakanda is legendary for? Why weren't the Dora Milaje cloaked? Where was Tchalla's armors? Why does Tchalla have runes painted on his flesh and not Medu? How can so many Wakandans be ignorant of magic and spirituality? Why do the soldiers of Wakanda look like they came straight out of that Hotel in Rwanda?

In issue #3 we start off with a six page recap whose pages could have been better utilized depicting the caves of Bast, (remember how long you stared at Jim Lees depiction of the batcave).

Shuri's bright idea is to carpet bomb the capitol with EMPs to get rid of the nanites but Tchalla couldn't come up with a better option like using the plane he landed in Latveria in issue 19 of Reg's run? It set off an EMP. Wakanda needs Reed's supplies to have power restored? Why do they continue saying Wakanda has been conquered when they clearly have not.

OH BUT THE MOST HEINOUS OF ACTS WAS DOOM'S MEETING WITH THE PANTHER SPIRIT. IT SEES DOOM AS PURE DESPITE THE HARM HE HAS DONE TO THE PANTHER SPIRIT'S MOST LOYAL OF FOLLOWERS. IS JONATHAN MAYBERRY HINTING THAT THE PANTHER SPIRIT HAS SEEN THE PATH THAT LEADS TO DOOMWORLD AND NOT TO THE FUTURE WHERE TCHALLA AND STORM LEAD THE WORLD AS SEEN IN BP BLACK TO THE FUTURE.

So as I await the conclusion of Doomwar hoping for the redemption of Storm, Wakanda and especially Tchalla (the only Black Panther I'm concerned with) I am prepared for the worst.

Yet and still I can't help but to believe this is all Reggie's fault "wink". Reggie has made some pretty bad impactful "mistakes" during his tenure on Black Panther that I think we need to examine appreciate.

First off, he made a declarative statement that Wakanda has never been conquered. He had the Black Panther defeat Captain America twice, look superior to the X-Men, subdue the Sub Mariner, outclass Ironman and easily out fight Karnak. Black Panther and Storm defeated Doom and helped liberate a Skrull world.

HIS MOST FLAGRANT ERROR  AUDACIOUS MOVE WAS THE MARRIAGE OF BLACK PANTHER TO STORM. HE EVEN HAD THE BLATANT DISREGARD TO INTIMATE CONJUGAL RELATIONS BETWEEN THEM ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS. :o

Reggie has unashamedly interwoven Afrakan history, contemporary politics and hip hop culture into a tapestry of heroic exploits palatable to a variety of comic book readers. He has sold more Black Panther comics than any writer in the character's history and is responsible for the first animated series dedicated to the King of Wakanda.

The aforementioned are no doubt viewed as "mistakes" to be corrected and are inexcusable to BP haters. Why? Because they demonstrate a responsibility to one's artistry, one's people, the general public and to one's self.  As I turn to the first page of Reggie's latest work Flags of our Fathers I already see the "mistakes"... I mean, SUCCESSFUL ATTEMPTS to give depth and integrity to this deserving character.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 10:21:52 pm by Ture »
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Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2010, 03:05:44 am »
I think you've made some good points about the lack of advanced tech. I didn't know or think about some of these counteractions that T'Challa or Shuri could've taken. I think you also have a point about the Desturi. This movement or at least more discontent should've been part of the Black Panther books long ago. It didn't make sense to me that this movement would come out of nowhere. Though I disagree with you in terms of Wakandans willingly letting Doom come in and take over. The Desturi was his cover, he knew he couldn't take Wakanda outright and he didn't want to. I do think it would've been better to develop at least the Desturi leader more and make it plain that he was using Doom like Doom was using him. It is debatable that Wakanda has been conquered, like they keep saying, because the royal family was deposed by a coup, that had foreign backing. I also don't mind T'Challa not being able to figure out the nanite infestation because he can't know everything. Sometimes we just don't know. We fail. It's human.

Are you saying that RH's run built up T'Challa so much that he should be more easily handling Doom in this mini? Turning T'Challa into a Gary Stu is one of my major criticisms of RH's run. I obviously want the guy to win, but I want him to work for it. All too often during the RH run that wasn't the case. So there was little or no suspense, and not many credible threats. I think RH and Maberry largely corrected that when Shuri took over, bringing in Morlun and now Doom.

Offline stanleyballard

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Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2010, 04:23:26 am »
You have some valid points on The Desturi seemingly coming out of nowhere when this group could have been a sub plot for years during Mr. Hudlin's run......remember constantly mentioning the lack of developed sub plots way back in the last volume of Black Panther during the frog storyline which took him to another planet for a prolonged period.  Mr. Maberry had to come in and make the current story work to the best effect and to some large degree he has done that and the sales have doubled as a result. Is it perfect ....no....is it capturing the sales and critical acclaim....definitely yes.

Offline Open palm

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Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2010, 07:22:13 am »
Uh huh. Yeah... ::)

And while this happens the youngest modern African King, King Oyo, was recently crowned. Some Saharan states have formed an alliance to fight the presence of Al-Qaeda in northern Africa. Zimbabwe is still the pits after 30 years. (No surprise there.) And the countdown to the World Cup is getting shorter for South Africa. Research to combat malaria continues to progress.

Don't worry be happy.  Africa is not losing anything with this comic. :)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 07:54:57 am by Open palm »
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Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2010, 07:50:08 am »
Ture 

<<Shuri's bright idea is to carpet bomb the capitol with EMPs to get rid of the nannies but Tchalla couldn't come up with a better option like using the plane he landed in Latveria in issue 19 of Reg's run? It set
off an EMP. >>

I wondered about that too.  Or even Storm's power to create EMPs.  (In
fact, if EMPs can disable them, then BPs entire logic behind not being
able to tell Storm is invalid.)

<<Why do the soldiers of Wakanda look like they came straight out of that Hotel in Rwanda.>> 

You have to blame the artist for that, not the
writer.

 Emperorjones:
<<I think you've made some good points about the lack of advanced tech....I think you also have a point about the Desturi. This movement or at
least more discontent should've been part of the Black Panther books
long ago. It didn't make sense to me that this movement would come out of nowhere. >>

That's standard serial fiction fare.  A new writer will create things and create a back story that stretches years, even though the readers
have never encountered it.  It's just normal serial fiction writing.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2010, 07:50:42 am »

<<First off he made a declarative statement that Wakanda has never been conquered.>>

Which, technically never true in the first place, because in the Marvel
Universe, Doctor Doom did conquer the entire world for several months
and only lost control, because he found the day to day running of the world to be boring.  There were no threats to his power.  He decided that mind-control was not the way to rule the world;  this occurred in Emperor Doom.  Funny thing is, in what he told the PG, he was right.  His vision of how Doomworld would save the human race from self-destruction turned out to be true.  While he ruled, there was peace and harmony throughout the planet.  (Of course, saying that Doomworld is the only successful future ignores several
stories, in recent years, that showed otherwise.)

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2010, 10:40:18 am »
Here's your mistake, Ture.  I'm not writing DOOMWAR.  I don't get the credit, I don't get the blame.

Offline Jay

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Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2010, 10:48:59 am »

After reading the third installment of Doomwar I found myself drawn back to my first post "Epitomizing the Black Panther". Though the writing maybe satisfactory the ineptitude displayed in the personalities (if such can even be said to exist) of Tchalla and Storm is deplorable. Tchalla lacks poise and confidence as Storm does depth and purpose. Both could be removed from the story and not be missed. The depiction  of Wakanda is unforgivable. It possesses no mystique, majesty, magic or uniqueness. It has all the depth of a "third world" country. Its populace is soulless and dimensionless. The writer may be trying to infuse so called contemporary Afrakan politics and sensibilities into the story but it leaves me thinking he lacks the rectitude to envision an unconquered futuristic Afrakan nation. The title of this comic is correct, this is not a Black Panther comic it is a Doom comic.

Let us begin by examining the following: the deposing of Tchalla by a fringe group that no one has heard of is outrageous and disrespectful. If the Desturi were connected with the Jabari tribe of the Man Ape or Killmonger's people in N'Jadaka city or better still to Hunter and the Hatut Zeraze .... this would give precedence and feasibility to such an attempt.

The untenable and blasphemous treatment of Storm goes all the way back to the Worlds Apart mini series and continues in Doomwar. We are supposed to believe that there is no moral outrage by the citizens of this "warrior" nation as to to her treatment, nor support for a goddess whom is known through out Afraka.

We are supposed to believe that the Wakandans assisting Doom are so dissatisfied with Tchalla's rulership that they side with an outsider despite centuries of isolationism (bordering on xenophobia) and self determinism. To add further insult we bear witness to a Wakandan  calling Doom "my lord" as Doom not only tells him to get to work but says "it won't matter who rules this country, it will be a wasteland of ash and charred bones." And every one is alright with this?

Tchalla, master strategist and genius that he is, has his head bowed as his younger sister ask the X-Men for help. How much tide turning can four X-Men do? Tchalla is lured into a trap and nearly killed by Doom by a mere energy blast from Doom's gauntlet. Couldn't Tchalla dodge it? What happened to the vibranium microwave of his habit? Reg a little help here. Tchalla could not get rid of a nanite infestation nor fully explain how he was able to avoid such.

PERHAPS THE MOST AGGRIEVOUS ACT WAS ANNOUCING THAT AFTER TEN THOUSAND YEARS OF WAKANDANS EXPLORING THE SECRETS OF VIBRANIUM,THEY NEVER MASTERED THE SECRET OF USING MAGICALLY CHARGED VIBRANIUM BUT DOOM HAS!!!


OH BUT THE MOST HEINOUS OF ACTS WAS DOOM'S MEETING WITH THE PANTHER SPIRIT. IT SEES DOOM AS PURE DESPITE THE HARM HE HAS DONE TO THE PANTHER SPIRIT'S MOST LOYAL OF FOLLOWERS. IS JONATHAN MAYBERRY HINTING THAT THE PANTHER SPIRIT HAS SEEN THE PATH THAT LEADS TO DOOMWORLD AND NOT TO THE FUTURE WHERE TCHALLA AND STORM LEAD THE WORLD AS SEEN IN BP BLACK TO THE FUTURE.



HIS MOST FLAGRANT ERROR WAS THE MARRIAGE OF BLACK PANTHER TO STORM. HE EVEN HAD THE BLATANT DISREGARD INTIMATE CONJUGAL RELATIONS BETWEEN THEM ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS.

Reggie has unashamedly interwoven Afrakan history, contemporary politics and hip hop culture into a tapestry of heroic exploits palatable to a variety of comic book readers. He has sold more Black Panther comics than any writer in the character's history and is responsible for the first animated series dedicated to the King of Wakanda.



You make some good points here about the Desturi but others?

Yes Wakanda has great technology but you have to remember that Dr. Doom is on a level with Dr. Reed Richards. In fact, Doom is higher then Reed because he also can use magic at near the same level of Dr. Strange.
In new Avengers Dr. Strange was terrified of the idea that Doom would be named the next great socere supreme. Not to mention, that his technology is probably on par with Dr. Richard's if you remember. Reed's technology and understanding of science surpass that of the Wakandan's.  So when you consider those two factors and that T'Challa is pushing science rather then magic in Wakanda then the fact that you mention doesn't become so outrageous that Doom would be able to master it first.

That's just the way the ball bounces in the Marvel Universe.

In general, I like the story. Dr. Doom is being a real credible villain (threat) in this story, something that the BP has been missing. Although that threw me for a loop when the Cat said he had a pure heart. But to me that made the story better. NOT WORST! but hey that's just me.
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Offline Jay

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Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2010, 11:55:56 am »
Here's your mistake, Ture.  I'm not writing DOOMWAR.  I don't get the credit, I don't get the blame.

Quote from: Ture
I'm AAAa blaming you, anyway!

Can't we all just get along  ::)

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Offline Seven

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Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2010, 01:23:38 pm »
Iím glad Mr. Hudlin came along to say that. The whole blame Hudlin really invalidates what would be a post with some valid points.

But what I donít get is why Black Panther fans are so insecure. Why does Tíchalla have to be written as second fiddle to be ok; there are some valid issues with Mr. Hudlinís first  run on Black Panther. His first time writing comics, while at the same time being a CEO, and raising young children...among other things.  

Now I am not a Hudlin apologist. My first post on this site was a PM to Mr. Hudlin himself blasting him. But after reflection, the blaming is  way off.

You said;
Quote
Yet and still I can't help but to believe this is all Reggie fault. Reggie has made some pretty bad mistakes during his tenure on Black Panther that I think we need to examine.


Here is why:

1)   Black Panther fans need to stop comparing everything to C. Priest legendary run. It was great and it is still considered cannon. While you didnít say this, Iím saying it to get it out of the way.
2)   Priest himself said that he did not expect anyone to be able to follow up on any of his plot lines and that if he wrote the book again, he would write it differently. Why, because the same bashing we see with Mr. Hudlin, is the same bashing I saw with Mr. Priest.
3)   Besides Fantastic Four #52-53, Mr. Priest run of Black Panther, G. Johns trying to copy Mr. Priest on his Avengers run and Jason Aaronís short arc on the Black Panther.  There has not been many people who have written Tíchalla better then Mr. Hudlin has... I mean as being a Hero that does not get his ass kicked all the time. 30ís years of treating Tíchalla like he was a joke, I take issue with folks talking about Hudlinís run. There were issues, but that is not one of them. There is no way I will complain about Mr. Hudlin writing Tíchalla as he was supposed to be written.

No? I thought you made some valid points, but blaming Mr. Hudlin and thisÖ

You said;
Quote
First off he made a declarative statement that Wakanda has never been conquered.

I donít get it. Why notÖit does not make since for a nation with the rarest metal to not have been conquered, they have been around since 10,000 BC ...if someone conquered them they would not have this resource, like the rest of Africa. The Kirby Wakanda was also never conquered eitherÖit was just hidden. But think about thisÖand why Mr. Hudlin foresight is better then most. Read the new Mini S.H.E.I.L.D, there is no way that Wakanda would have made since without Mr. Hudlinís Wakanda. There would be no Black Panther.

Quote
He had the Black Panther defeat Captain America twice

No he did not. He has Tíchalla grand father, Azzari the Wise beat a young Steve Rogers. That is very logical and he had Tíchalla best Steve in a sparing matchÖnothing different then what other writers have done to Tíchalla with Steve besting him (both had injuries). God forbid Tíchalla being shown on par with Steve, even though Jack Kirby showed him that way.

Quote
look superior to the X-Men

You mean like this?


Quote
subdue the Sub Mariner

Really????


Quote
outclass Ironman

You mean like this?

Or the time during Mr. Priest run when he beat him with windex spray?

Quote
easily out fight Karnak.
Really???

You mean like this?
Quote
Black Panther and Storm defeated Doom

Why would this be a problem? Also Doom had Tíchalla by his throat.
Quote
and help liberate a Skrull world.

What, you mean like other heroes would do? Jason Aaronís SI arc, routed the Skrulls in a battle where it was like 5 to 1, and it was critically acclaimed and made the NY times best sellers list.

Quote
HIS MOST FLAGRANT ERROR WAS THE MARRIAGE OF BLACK PANTHER TO STORM. HE EVEN HAD THE BLATANT DISREGARD INTIMATE CONJUGAL RELATIONS BETWEEN THEM ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS.


I totally disagree. It was an error in the way it was executed. However, it was entertaining to others as well. In fact I have asked creators and editors myselfÖTom Brevoot, Jason Aaron, Chris Yost, etc..etcÖthey all like the marriage.

I do agree that the habit and gear that T'challa had during his run with Priest should be standard. He should have that right now, and that habit looks better. Ignoring Priest run is a huge mistake (though Mr. Hudlin did not totally ignroe it...because you see some of the Priest Tech during his run).

As for Doomwar...I will wait until it's finished before I truly judge it. That's all Mr. Maberry.
Doomwar seems to be focused on Doom, but there are 3 issues to go...so maybe we will see T'challa and Storm do something for once.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 01:32:43 pm by Seven »

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2010, 01:34:46 pm »
When I read Ture's original post, I thought he was trying to be clever by saying if Doomwar's version of BP is correct, than Reggie must have done all these things wrong.  (A subtle way of trying to say that DW's BP doesn't match Reggie's)

Offline Seven

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Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2010, 01:40:54 pm »
I thought that also, but then I wasn't sure. LOL

Offline 4sake

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Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2010, 01:46:26 pm »
When I read Ture's original post, I thought he was trying to be clever by saying if Doomwar's version of BP is correct, than Reggie must have done all these things wrong.  (A subtle way of trying to say that DW's BP doesn't match Reggie's)

That was what I was thinking to & I cosign Seven points...
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Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2010, 02:24:27 pm »
Now I'm really confused...   

Offline DJfunkyPuddle

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Re: Doomwar and the many mistakes of Reginald Hudlin.
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2010, 09:04:05 pm »
I thought only a few of the Desturi actually knew about Doom, I kinda thought that was Doom's whole point.