Author Topic: Arizona no like Latinos  (Read 27711 times)

michaelintp

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Re: Arizona no like Latinos
« Reply #135 on: May 18, 2010, 07:58:59 am »
Fine, Curtis, so long as professors or teachers agree with you, they evidence no bias.  I get it.  Like the African-American studies professor whom we were exposed to on the HEF some time ago.  Right?  You know, the guy who kept bitching that I should be kicked off the forum.  Because I disagreed with him and cited facts to support my position, and outed his dissemination of only partial facts and studies that only supported his point of view.

As to whether the "Mexican-American Studies Program" meets the criteria of the Arizona law, I agree with you that the matter will need to be examined in a detailed fashion.  The only point I made, which you seem to reject, is that one should not rely on platitudes set forth on a website.  You disregarded references to textbooks, because you are so inclined.  But our bickering amounts to nothing; it will be examined in depth in the future and a decision will be made.  If the program does not violate the reasonable standards set forth in the new Arizona law, and the negative information disseminated about it is inaccurate, then I have no problem with it.

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Arizona no like Latinos
« Reply #136 on: May 18, 2010, 08:56:02 am »
Fine, Curtis, so long as professors or teachers agree with you, they evidence no bias.  I get it.  Like the African-American studies professor whom we were exposed to on the HEF some time ago.  Right?  You know, the guy who kept bitching that I should be kicked off the forum.  Because I disagreed with him and cited facts to support my position, and outed his dissemination of only partial facts and studies that only supported his point of view.
I honestly don't know how you come to the conclusion underlined. Didn't I say that bias in grading of any kind would be wrong? What I disagree with is your baseless speculation that bias would be more likely in the MASP than anywhere else.

As for the professor you mentioned, come on now, Michael. He is no longer here and you are. You may safely conclude that the right to civilly express one's perspective is the value that was upheld by HEF management.

As to whether the "Mexican-American Studies Program" meets the criteria of the Arizona law, I agree with you that the matter will need to be examined in a detailed fashion.  The only point I made, which you seem to reject, is that one should not rely on platitudes set forth on a website.  You disregarded references to textbooks, because you are so inclined.  But our bickering amounts to nothing; it will be examined in depth in the future and a decision will be made.  If the program does not violate the reasonable standards set forth in the new Arizona law, and the negative information disseminated about it is inaccurate, then I have no problem with it.
The underlined is certainly correct. As for what I "disregarded", it was a website expressing an opinion about textbooks that may or may not be a part of the MASP. Further, I didn't disregard it, I just don't consider it necessarily authoritative nor conclusive as perhaps you do. I think it should merely be registered as a piece of information to consider.

Now, as to the law, I suppose the criteria might be reasonable but they may also be wholly unnecessary. If the Superintendent feels that strongly about his position, (and one may wonder why that is), isn't he ideally located to work towards integrating the concerns of one of his largest constituencies into the mainstream curriculum? Isn't that the solution you say you prefer?
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
"Be hard on systems, but soft on people."

michaelintp

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Re: Arizona no like Latinos
« Reply #137 on: May 18, 2010, 06:44:49 pm »
I read the entire interview. The Director of the Mexican-American Studies Program, Sean Arce, said almost nothing specific.  His entire response was one platitude after the next. The guy repeated the phrase “this great nation” three times the in the course of this short interview, assured the audience that he is upholding the “Constitution of the United States” etc etc.  Do you really believe that’s the way the guy always talks, to his friends, to students, to others generally?  He provided no specific factual rebuttal to anything that School Superintendent Tom Horn said.  He didn’t claim that the testimony of other teachers, or eyewitness accounts, were fabricated.  He didn’t deny use of a Marxist text.  He admitted that 90% of the kids who take the “La Raza” or “Mexican-American” studies classes are Latino.  He tried to explain this on the ground that this comports with the demographics of the Tucson schools where such classes are offered.  I would like to see the actual data, to see the demographics of all schools where such programs are offered and what the demographic is of those who enroll in the classes.  However, even assuming for purposes of discussion that what Mr. Arce says were accurate, what we are talking about is the racial targeting of the program to certain schools to assure that the overwhelming majority of those taking the classes will be from the targeted racial group.  Resulting in de facto segregation of the school curriculum.   

Given the nonspecific tone and tenor of Mr. Arce’s comments, Tom Horn may be right when he observes: “We have a very different picture presented by the department to the outside world, and then testimony of teachers and ex-teachers as to what's really going on there.”

Perhaps upon investigation all of Mr. Horn’s allegations, all the testimony and eye-witness accounts, all the references to specific textbooks used, will be proven to be unfounded, fabricated, all lies.  Or maybe not.  It will all come out when the Tucson program is formally evaluated and the matter is litigated (though my guess is that it will be settled before we hear any testimony in court).  In any event, we are not going to resolve it here. 

Here are some more highlights:

Mr. HORNE: Well, we have testimony from a number of teachers and former teachers. One is Hector Ayala, who is a current teacher, was himself born in Mexico, but he's an excellent English teacher, teaches at a very high level. The former director of Raza studies taught next to him, and accused him of being the white man's agent because he accused - he opposed that thing. He was told by students that he taught a separate political agenda, and that students told him they were taught to not fall for the white man's traps.

We have another former teacher who says the whole inference and tone was anger. They taught students that the United States was and still is a fundamentally racist country to those Mexican-American kids. Individuals in this ethnic studies department are vehemently anti-Western culture. They are vehemently opposed to the United States and its power. They are telling students they are victims. They should be angry and rise up. By the time I left that class, I saw a change in the students, he said - an angry tone.

We have testimony from other teachers I can read to you if you want to, but that gives you a picture of it. One of their principle textbooks is called "The Pedagogy of the Oppressed" by Paulo Freire, who's a well-known Brazilian Marxist. I've read the book. His sources are Marx, Lenin, Engels, Che Guevara and the philosophers who influenced them.

KEYES: Superintendent Horne, is it wrong to highlight the contributions of specific ethnicities that you might not have heard about before? I mean, when I was growing up in Chicago, they didn't focus a whole lot about the history and culture of people of color. I realize that has changed in many ways, but is that not something important that kids need to know?

Mr. HORNE: Absolutely. And the standards that my department promulgates, we require in the social studies classes that the students learn about contributions of all different cultures. We think that's very important. But what we're against is ghettoizing students. Raza studies for the Mexican kids. African-American studies for the African-American kids. Asian studies for the Asian kids. Indian studies for the Native-American kids - and then just teach them about the contributions of the group that they happen to have been born into.

We think kids should be taught together. They should be taught to treat each other as individuals, that what race they happened to have been born into is irrelevant. What's relevant is what you know, what you can do, what's your character, not what race you happened to have been born into. And we teach the contributions of different groups together in a social studies class for all kids.

The job of the public schools is to bring kids from different backgrounds together and teach them to treat each other as individuals. I'll read to you a brief sentence from a third teacher. She's overheard the Raza studies teacher tell students that they need to go to college so they can gain the power to take back the stolen land and give it back to Mexico. He personally told me that he teaches his students that Republicans hate Latinos, and he has the legislation to prove it. When he asked him about Mexican-American Republicans who are against illegal immigration, he said this is an example of self-racism.

We have a very different picture presented by the department to the outside world, and then testimony of teachers and ex-teachers as to what's really going on there.

KEYES: Superintendent, if you are a member of a particular ethnic background, is there not some right or reason for you to learn something about your ethnic and cultural background?

Mr. HORNE: Certainly. But that shouldn't be the only thing you learn. You need to learn about all different backgrounds and all different cultures. School should be a place that broadens your horizon. The word education comes from the word ex, which is from educo, which is Latin, to lead. So it's to lead out - to lead out from the narrowness of learning only about your background, to learn about all different backgrounds. And that's what we strive to do in our standards for our social studies classes.

It's contrary, I believe, to American values to divide kids by race and teach each race only about its own contributions. We want to teach all kids about all different contributions.

KEYES: Mr. Arce, are the children divided by race in these classes? Or is this kids of all colors that are, like, hey, I'm going to take African-American studies. That sounds interesting.

Mr. ARCE: The kids aren't divided by race whatsoever. That's a fallacy that Mr. Horne has been expounding for years. These classes are developed for all students in Tucson Unified School District. His rationale is the equivalent to stating that our AP European history classes in the state of Arizona, which are steeped in the history and culture of Europe, are only for European heritage students. And we know that's false.

KEYES: I've got to ask you, how many kids of other races are in those classes?

Mr. ARCE: About 90 percent of the students that do take our classes at the high school level are Mexican-American and Latino, and the remaining 10 percent are white Anglo, African-America, Native American.

KEYES: If the classes are 90 percent Mexican, why aren't more kids of other ethnicities taking them?

Mr. ARCE: Because many of these schools that we do have, these courses where we do provide this coursework, it's very much reflective and consistent with the demographics of the school.

KEYES: So most of - the school is mostly Mexican-American, is what you're saying.

Mr. ARCE: That is correct.

KEYES: Okay. And let me ask you to respond to Mr. Arce's political charge. I mean, you are running for attorney general in Arizona. Is this at all campaign-related? Is this good politics?

Mr. HORNE: No. I think I've been on this issue for four years now. First two years I was trying to persuade Tucson to change their ways, and then the last two years getting the bill through the legislature. This is among my most deeply held beliefs that we are to be treated as individuals and not on the basis of race.
In the summer of 1963, when I just graduated from high school, I participated in the march on Washington, where Martin Luther King gave his famous speech where he said people should be judged on the content of their character and not the color of their skin.

KEYES: So if Tucson doesn't change its classes, are you going to go after them?

Mr. HORNE: Without doubt. We have substantial testimony that what's occurring is not only dividing students by race and teaching them separately by race and teaching them only about their own culture and not about other cultures, but that there's a revolutionary curriculum going on where kids are taught -they're taught from a book called "The Pedagogy of the Oppressed."

You know, these kids, parents and grandparents came to this country, most of them legally, because this is the land of opportunity. And they trust their children to our schools. And we should be teaching these kids that this is the land of opportunity and if they work hard, they can achieve their dreams. And we should not be teaching them that they're oppressed and creating an atmosphere which, as some of the teachers testify, they become resentful toward the country, they've become resentful toward the government. They should be looking at our country hopefully as a land of opportunity, where they can achieve success.

Offline Battle

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Re: Arizona no like Latinos
« Reply #138 on: May 19, 2010, 09:04:19 am »
Quote
You know, these kids, parents and grandparents came to this country, most of them legally, because this is the land of opportunity. And they trust their children to our schools. And we should be teaching these kids that this is the land of opportunity and if they work hard, they can achieve their dreams. And we should not be teaching them that they're oppressed and creating an atmosphere which, as some of the teachers testify, they become resentful toward the country, they've become resentful toward the government. They should be looking at our country hopefully as a land of opportunity, where they can achieve success.




'Land of opportunity' is a very subjective description.

Offline BlackRodimus

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Re: Arizona no like Latinos
« Reply #139 on: May 19, 2010, 11:09:54 am »
"don't fight the power, be the power" - Reginald Hudlin

Offline Battle

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Re: Arizona no like Latinos
« Reply #140 on: May 19, 2010, 12:20:07 pm »
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/05/17/texas-latino-immigration/

Do as I say, not as I do?




Sometimes, I like to read the comments section of any debate, article or topic online.  The comments at that link are no exception.  Check this one out:





20. Peashooter says:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KEEP THE MEXICANS OUT!

We don’t need their corruption and backward culture here.

Mexicans DO want handouts.












75. Hoodathunk(sponsored by the FSM, Noodles for Freedom!) says:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mexicans always want handouts?

When did they move Wall Street to Mexico?

May 17th, 2010 at 5:26 pm




 ;D

Offline BlackRodimus

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Re: Arizona no like Latinos
« Reply #141 on: May 19, 2010, 01:00:17 pm »
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/05/17/texas-latino-immigration/

Do as I say, not as I do?




Sometimes, I like to read the comments section of any debate, article or topic online.  The comments at that link are no exception.  Check this one out:





20. Peashooter says:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KEEP THE MEXICANS OUT!

We don’t need their corruption and backward culture here.

Mexicans DO want handouts.












75. Hoodathunk(sponsored by the FSM, Noodles for Freedom!) says:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mexicans always want handouts?

When did they move Wall Street to Mexico?

May 17th, 2010 at 5:26 pm




 ;D


LOL Awesome, good sir! Awesome!
"don't fight the power, be the power" - Reginald Hudlin

michaelintp

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Re: Arizona no like Latinos
« Reply #142 on: May 20, 2010, 10:24:21 pm »
What I disagree with is your baseless speculation that bias would be more likely in the MASP than anywhere else.


Why baseless?  I stated the general principle that any program that is more ideological in nature is more likely to attract teachers and professors with a personal ideological agenda, who may be more likely to push that agenda, and penalize those who do not embrace it or dare to challenge it. This it certainly not limited to MASP Program, but it is more likely there than in the more ideologically neutral and more broadly focused "general studies" program. Same can be said for any number of more ideologically-based classes, most notably in the social sciences and history, found in universities.

Not that this happens all the time, or with every teacher or professor.  The risk is just greater, that's all.

As for the professor you mentioned, come on now, Michael. He is no longer here and you are. You may safely conclude that the right to civilly express one's perspective is the value that was upheld by HEF management.


My reference to the African-American Studies Professor had nothing to do with "HEF Management" and everything to do with teachers and professors with an ideological axe to grind who display prejudice against, and seek to penalize, those they disagree with (or who dare to disagree with "the professor").  I simply cited him as a case in point, of what we are discussing.

Now, as to the law, I suppose the criteria might be reasonable but they may also be wholly unnecessary. If the Superintendent feels that strongly about his position, (and one may wonder why that is), isn't he ideally located to work towards integrating the concerns of one of his largest constituencies into the mainstream curriculum? Isn't that the solution you say you prefer?


Superintendent Horn stated that he tried through persuasion and his efforts were unsuccessful. He described his objectives, his point of view, and what he sees as the role of the general curriculum for all students.

One thing that interests me about this discussion is that those involved on both sides believe that they are the ones fighting against prejudice. 

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/05/17/texas-latino-immigration/
Do as I say, not as I do?

Sometimes, I like to read the comments section of any debate, article or topic online.  The comments at that link are no exception.  Check this one out:


Battle: The problem with Internet comments is that you never know who really made 'em. There is no accountability. The comments could just as easily have been written by an activist who actually is supportive of ethnic studies who intentionally posts a racist comment to "slander" his opponents (by portraying them as racists), as someone who is against such programs.  Or the post could have been written been some racist piece of crap.  You'll never know.

BPStorm4ever:  It is notable, however, that regarding the English teacher who made the prejudiced comments, "Once the school’s principal learned of the incident, administrators removed the teacher and launched an investigation."  Was the teacher of the Mexican-American Studies class, who made disparaging racist references against Latino Republicans, similarly removed? (See Tom Horn's comments, above). Or is there a double-standard at work here?

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Arizona no like Latinos
« Reply #143 on: May 21, 2010, 07:04:42 am »
What I disagree with is your baseless speculation that bias would be more likely in the MASP than anywhere else.

Why baseless?  I stated the general principle that any program that is more ideological in nature is more likely to attract teachers and professors with a personal ideological agenda, who may be more likely to push that agenda, and penalize those who do not embrace it or dare to challenge it. This it certainly not limited to MASP Program, but it is more likely there than in the more ideologically neutral and more broadly focused "general studies" program. Same can be said for any number of more ideologically-based classes, most notably in the social sciences and history, found in universities.

Not that this happens all the time, or with every teacher or professor.  The risk is just greater, that's all.
If you assume your conclusion, you can "prove" anything. Is the MASP ideological? Isn't that the crux of the question? Perhaps baseless speculation is overly harsh; I'll take back the baseless part. It's just regular speculation.

As for the professor you mentioned, come on now, Michael. He is no longer here and you are. You may safely conclude that the right to civilly express one's perspective is the value that was upheld by HEF management.

My reference to the African-American Studies Professor had nothing to do with "HEF Management" and everything to do with teachers and professors with an ideological axe to grind who display prejudice against, and seek to penalize, those they disagree with (or who dare to disagree with "the professor").  I simply cited him as a case in point, of what we are discussing.
And he's just like those MASP teachers. You know how they are.  ::)

Now, as to the law, I suppose the criteria might be reasonable but they may also be wholly unnecessary. If the Superintendent feels that strongly about his position, (and one may wonder why that is), isn't he ideally located to work towards integrating the concerns of one of his largest constituencies into the mainstream curriculum? Isn't that the solution you say you prefer?

Superintendent Horn stated that he tried through persuasion and his efforts were unsuccessful. He described his objectives, his point of view, and what he sees as the role of the general curriculum for all students.

One thing that interests me about this discussion is that those involved on both sides believe that they are the ones fighting against prejudice. 
I find that interesting also. Maybe they are both reasonable people with different perspectives.

Aside from them, do you think that a MASP or similar programs are inherently divisive? Or do you think it depends on how it is done?
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
"Be hard on systems, but soft on people."

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Lawmen Threaten to Deport Puerto Rican Guy to Mexico
« Reply #144 on: May 25, 2010, 01:59:23 pm »
Lawmen Threaten to Deport Puerto Rican Guy to Mexico

Puerto Rican-born US citizen Eduardo Caraballo was arrested in Illinois and threatened with deportation—back to Mexico. Once officials got his birth certificate, it only took them three days to figure out he wasn't Mexican. Uh.

Just consider this a dry run for the resounding success that will be Arizona's immigration law! [Guanabee]

Offline Kristopher

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Re: Lawmen Threaten to Deport Puerto Rican Guy to Mexico
« Reply #145 on: May 25, 2010, 06:12:17 pm »
Lawmen Threaten to Deport Puerto Rican Guy to Mexico

Puerto Rican-born US citizen Eduardo Caraballo was arrested in Illinois and threatened with deportation—back to Mexico. Once officials got his birth certificate, it only took them three days to figure out he wasn't Mexican. Uh.

Just consider this a dry run for the resounding success that will be Arizona's immigration law! [Guanabee]



More:
Eduardo Caraballo, a U.S. citizen born in the United States, was detained for over three days on suspicion of being an illegal immigrant.

Despite presenting identifying documents and even his birth certificate, Caraballo was held by federal immigration authorities over the weekend and threatened with deportation, according to an NBC Chicago report. He was only released when his congressman, Luis Gutierrez -- a vocal supporter of immigration reform -- intervened on his behalf.

Caraballo was born in Puerto Rico, making him a natural-born citizen of the United States. He moved to the mainland as an infant, and now lives in Chicago.

Last week, NBC reports that he was arrested in connection with a stolen car in Berwyn. Caraballo maintains his innocence. In any case, when his mother posted bail on Friday, he was not freed.

"Instead of being released, he was told by authorities that Immigration and Customs Enforcement was detaining him because he was an illegal immigrant," NBC reports.

Caraballo spent the weekend in the custody of federal immigration agents. When he presented them with ID and his birth certificate, he says officials were skeptical: "Because of the way I look, I have Mexican features, they pretty much assumed that my papers were fake."

Only after his congressman interceded was Caraballo set free.

Rep. Gutierrez, a Chicagoan who is himself of Puerto Rican descent, is a long-time advocate of immigration reform. He was one of the first and loudest voices on the Hill to speak out against the Arizona immigration law, and he was recently arrested at a protest demanding fairer treatment for immigrants and their families.

"It gets worse," Gutierrez said in an interview. "We know of instances in which young people in his same situation are actually taken to the border and deported from the United States.

Not surprisingly, the nine-term Democratic congressman saw a disturbing connection to the situation in the Grand Canyon State.

"In Arizona, they want everybody to be able to prove they're legally in the country. They want everybody to prove that they're an American citizen. Here we had an American citizen, that the federal government... could not determine, for more than three days, his status as an American citizen. It's very, very, very dangerous ground to tread."

According to NBC Chicago, Caraballo "is considering legal action." Meanwhile, he and his congressman hope the incident will open people's eyes to the dangers of profiling.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 06:24:04 pm by Kristopher »

Offline BmoreAkuma

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Re: Arizona no like Latinos
« Reply #146 on: May 29, 2010, 07:09:27 pm »
As stated I was going to post and well things are str8. No cops but at the same time I dont have a rental to drive around in. BTW there is a huge rally of pro and con of the bill. Of course some of the ones that are PRO have confederate flags up. Or unless they are from South Carolina  ::) Arizona is beatiful. If you are a person that like to date interracially, you're good and a number of the white women are eating something nice rofl. But actually all of the women are nice. Decent party life. But I also kinda felt old since im 30 out there and about.
With these choices, I felt that the American black man only needed to choose which one to get eaten by; the liberal fox or the conservative wolf because both of them will eat him.

Offline moor

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Re: Arizona no like Latinos
« Reply #147 on: June 01, 2010, 09:31:06 am »
As stated I was going to post and well things are str8. No cops but at the same time I dont have a rental to drive around in. BTW there is a huge rally of pro and con of the bill. Of course some of the ones that are PRO have confederate flags up. Or unless they are from South Carolina  ::) Arizona is beatiful. If you are a person that like to date interracially, you're good and a number of the white women are eating something nice rofl. But actually all of the women are nice. Decent party life. But I also kinda felt old since im 30 out there and about.

What city did you visit?

Offline BmoreAkuma

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Re: Arizona no like Latinos
« Reply #148 on: June 01, 2010, 10:11:56 am »
With these choices, I felt that the American black man only needed to choose which one to get eaten by; the liberal fox or the conservative wolf because both of them will eat him.

Offline Lion

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Re: Arizona no like Latinos... especially dark ones.
« Reply #149 on: June 04, 2010, 07:00:57 pm »
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100604/ts_ynews/ynews_ts2425

Prescott, Ariz., elementary school to 'whiten' image of child in mural
2 hrs 44 mins ago

An artist's decision to prominently feature a non-white child on an elementary-school mural in Prescott, Ariz., sparked so much controversy that school administrators asked him to "lighten" the child's face after a city councilman launched a campaign against the mural, according to the Arizona Republic.

The Prescott episode isn't likely to help Arizona's growing reputation as a battleground of racial and ethnic confrontation, as the state faces a widespread boycott campaign over its harsh new immigration law.

The mural, which was funded by a state grant, features the faces of four actual students at the school and is intended to promote biking and other environmentally sustainable modes of transportation. The most prominent face on it belongs to a Latino student.

Steve Blair didn't like that. Blair, local city councilman and talk-radio host, inveighed against the mural on his show last month, according to the New York Daily News:

"I am not a racist individual," Blair said on a radio show last month, "but I will tell you depicting a black guy in the middle of that mural, based upon who's President of the United States today and based upon the history of this community, when I grew up we had four black families — who I have been very good friends with for years — to depict the biggest picture on that building as a black person, I would have to ask the question, 'Why?' "

Good question, to which there are two answers: 1) The boy in question is of Latino heritage (but it's hard to tell them all apart sometimes, right?), and 2) because the boy in question is of Latino heritage. It is suspicious, though, seeing as how only 42 percent of Arizonans aren't white.

R.E. Wall, a Prescott artist who worked on the mural along with several other members of the city's Downtown Mural Project, told the Republic that local residents driving by the mural as they were painting it — sometimes with children helping — shouted ethnic slurs. Wall claimed the school's principal asked him to make the child's skin tone lighter in response to the pushback. The principal acknowledged receiving three complaints about the child's race but insisted that the lightening was an "artistic" decision.

The important thing to remember here is that Steve Blair is not a racist individual and that he has been very good friends with Prescott's four black families for years. Blair didn't immediately return a phone call from Yahoo! News.

— John Cook is a senior national reporter/blogger for Yahoo! News.