Author Topic: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"  (Read 29176 times)

Offline Francisco

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Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2010, 09:11:04 pm »
yes Red Jack Christianity and Judaism are as barbaric as Islam

Quote from: Jesus Christ
'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'

Yeah, that is pretty barbaric! ::)
If your brother wears two different pieces of clothing made of different fabrics you must stone him to death. That's the humane thing to do  ::)

The thing is that for every sound verse written in the bible there are at least 20 more calling to do crazy stuff.
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Offline Redjack

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Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2010, 09:21:31 pm »
Hey. I've actually read the Bible and the Koran. I've read bunches of the Torah. Some of you all will want to do the same before getting snide and superior and snippy about it.

The POINT is you self-righteous Christians and Jews are, in fact, picking and choosing which verses you like & which you don't just as many, MANY, Muslims do. If you were to follow your books to the letter you would be the same people you're pointing at. And a great many of you do and are. It also amuses and saddens me that so many black americans are Christians at all considering how that faith was "given" to you. It's like the offspring of a child molester growing up and teaching how great it is to be a child molester.

Nearly none of you would be Christians now if not for your ancestors being enslaved by people whose bibles not only justify that enslavement but can be interpreted to mean that we, not being white, are all subhuman, bearing the mark of Cain. Jesus was cool with slavery, kids. (Colossians 3:22, Ephesians 6:5) How does that sit with you? You follow his words, right?  ;)

I'm mildly amused at how each sect justifies which verses they pick and choose to follow.

There is nothing inherently wrong with Islam. Nothing that isn't equally wrong with your own faiths.

You're all the same. Precisely the same.

I'm not trying to make fun or say your faiths aren't valuable. They are. But you want to stay off that high horse when you're looking at Islam. You don't have ANYTHING over them. Not one thing.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 09:37:10 pm by Redjack »
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Offline 4sake

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Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2010, 09:49:04 pm »
Hey. I've actually read the Bible and the Koran. I've read bunches of the Torah. Some of you all will want to do the same before getting snide and superior and snippy about it.

The POINT is you self-righteous Christians and Jews are, in fact, picking and choosing which verses you like & which you don't just as many, MANY, Muslims do. If you were to follow your books to the letter you would be the same people you're pointing at. And a great many of you do and are. It also amuses and saddens me that so many black americans are Christians at all considering how that faith was "given" to you. It's like the offspring of a child molester growing up and teaching how great it is to be a child molester.

Nearly none of you would be Christians now if not for your ancestors being enslaved by people whose bibles not only justify that enslavement but can be interpreted to mean that we, not being white, are all subhuman, bearing the mark of Cain. Jesus was cool with slavery, kids. (Colossians 3:22, Ephesians 6:5) How does that sit with you? You follow his words, right?  ;)

I'm mildly amused at how each sect justifies which verses they pick and choose to follow.

There is nothing inherently wrong with Islam. Nothing that isn't equally wrong with your own faiths.

You're all the same. Precisely the same.

I'm not trying to make fun or say your faiths aren't valuable. They are. But you want to stay off that high horse when you're looking at Islam. You don't have ANYTHING over them. Not one thing.

This is exactly how I feel also & COSIGNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  8)
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Offline Kristopher

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Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2010, 10:48:36 pm »
yes Red Jack Christianity and Judaism are as barbaric as Islam

Quote from: Jesus Christ
'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'

Yeah, that is pretty barbaric! ::)
If your brother wears two different pieces of clothing made of different fabrics you must stone him to death. That's the humane thing to do  ::)

The thing is that for every sound verse written in the bible there are at least 20 more calling to do crazy stuff.

"Crazy" is a subjective term, but I'll bite, name 20 then, just for fun. Let's make it easy, New Testament only.

Offline Redjack

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Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2010, 10:58:19 pm »
The entire Book of Revelations is the ravings of a madman.
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Offline Kristopher

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Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2010, 06:50:52 am »
Jesus was cool with slavery, kids. (Colossians 3:22, Ephesians 6:5) How does that sit with you? You follow his words, right?  ;)
Nice try.
Jesus never condoned the cruel and ruthless slavery that humans have brought upon one another.
The slavery Jesus "was cool with" was serving people with absolute selfless love, regardless what positions we are in: doctors, teachers, employers and employees, parents and children.
He taught that the two most important commandments are 1) love God, and 2) love others as you love yourself. It's that simple, but you know this don't you?

Offline Kristopher

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Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2010, 07:13:44 am »
I'm not trying to make fun or say your faiths aren't valuable.
Well actually, you are. You try to get a rise out of believers by belittling their faith/beliefs with snide remarks( "ya'll believe in magic", "Blacks amuse me with this God belief", etc). The thing I'm trying to understand is WHY? What is your objective in doing that? To believers, you're not saying anything new. Here's what amuses me, when folks write things like that, they remind me of some who think that the "magic bullet" to hurting a mentally strong Black person's feelings, it to say "Nˇgger". Never been called that before. :o ;D

Offline Francisco

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Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2010, 07:18:14 am »
Both religions (Christianity and Islam) were introduced in Africa the same way.. (By war and enslavement)
There's even the story of an East African King that was kidnapped by Arab Muslims (after he helped them to repair their damaged boat) and taken to the middle east to be enslaved.
There he learned about Islam. Years later he escaped and traveled back to his land to teach his people the word of the prophet. A few years after his return, the same guys that had kidnapped him crashed their boat again and when they saw the same guy they had kidnapped and sold into slavery they almost sh*t their pants. But you know what happend? The King instead of killing the m f*ckers, thank them for allowing him to learn the words of the prophet.  ::)
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michaelintp

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Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2010, 07:48:36 am »
Unfortunately, I don't have time to contribute futher to this conversaton, but wanted to share these couple of thoughts.

Regarding the comments on Christianity and Judaism: One cannot understand Christianity or Judaism without a complete understanding of the traditions of both faiths; in the case of Christianity, the effects of the Reformation and the Enlightenment, and in the case of Judaism an understanding that it is comprised of not only of the written Torah but also a wide body of Oral Law (revealed to Moses at Sinai) and also volumes upon volumes of rabbinic works. Any understand of either faith based on the "text of the Bible" is entirely incomplete. Also, in the context of the United States, one needs an understanding of the historical origins of our country and the American Constitutional framework vis a vis religion, giving rise to attitudes of far greater religious tolerance than found in other parts of the world.  

One also needs to understand the different strains of Islam and Islamic thought, and which ones are today getting major funding in the U.S. from foreign sources.

As to the proposal to build the mosque at the site of the World Trade Center: Would the New York City officials be so accommodating if, say, a group was proposing to build a Pentecostal or Baptist Church on the site? An Orthodox Synagogue? Would the reaction be different from Liberal and Leftist sources to such proposals?  Would there be the same degree of accommodation?

How will a mosque on the site of Ground Zero be perceived by the Islamists?  As a victory?  The destruction of the Temple of the West, to be replaced by a Mosque?

Where is the funding for this mosque coming from?  The Imam has said he will use U.S.-sourced funds, but he has already solicited funds in the Middle East, and no doubt this is where much of the funding will have to come from (given the cost) whether or not it is filtered through U.S. entities or given directly.  

He appears to adhere to a rather fundamentalist strain of Islam, though he also knows the parameters of acceptable public commentary.

Here is an example of an interview discussing the perspective of the Imam leading the effort to build the mosque:

Inside the Push for Ground Zero-Area Mosque
Friday, May 21, 2010
This is a rush transcript from "Hannity," May 20, 2010. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

SEAN HANNITY, HOST: There has been great outrage following plans for a mosque set to be built just blocks from the site of 9/11's Ground Zero. And now the imam spearheading the building of this 13-story structure is defending his plans. Let's take a look:

(Begin Video Clip)

IMAM FEISAL ABDUL RAUF, BEHIND GROUND ZERO MOSQUE: We have the right to build this building as a right. We don't need any zoning variations. We can just go ahead and build it without permissions or expressions of support from anybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANNITY: But he may be much more radical than most Americans know.

Now in a book published back in 2004, "What Is Right With Islam," Feisal Abdul Rauf, he wrote of his fondness for Sharia Law and his belief that the U.S. can accommodate it. He argued, quote, that "the American political structure is Sharia compliant," continuing, quote, "For America to score even higher on the 'Islamic' or 'Sharia' compliance scale, America would need to do two things: invite the voices of all religions to join the dialogue in shaping the nation's practical life, and allow religious communities more leeway to judge among themselves according to their own laws."

I suppose that would mean allowing Muslims to have their own Sharia courts, Jewish people to have their own courts, Christians their own courts and so on and so on.

How very American? Constitutional?

Joining me now with reaction is the director of JihadWatch.org, Robert Spencer, and the cofounder for 9/11 Families for a Safe and Strong America, Deborah Burlingame. Our friend is back with us.

Good to see you. Thanks for being here.


DEBORAH BURLINGAME, COFOUNDER, 9/11 FAMILIES FOR A SAFE AND STRONG AMERICA: Hi, Sean.

HANNITY: Good to see you. Thanks for being here.

All right. Sharia Law compliant?

ROBERT SPENCER, DIRECTOR, JIHADWATCH.ORG: What he's saying is that America has put no roadblocks in the place of the implementation of Sharia. And this is why we're having a rally on June 6 against this mosque. Pamela Geller and I and Stop the Islamization of America, we're having a rally to protest against this mosque. Because Sharia is at variance with the American law in numerous ways and with American freedoms — the freedom of speech, the freedom of conscience, the equality of rights of women with men, the equality of rights of all people before the law.

Sharia denies all that. Feisal Abdul Rauf is for all that.

HANNITY: What he's saying here is that — and look, this is the guy — this is right next to nine — you know, Ground Zero.

SPENCER: Yes.

HANNITY: All right. So they're going to build a 13-story mosque. But what he's saying here is religious communities in America, forget the U.S. Constitution, you know, equal justice under the law and constitutional principles. He's saying that they ought to be allowed to judge themselves and use Sharia Law here in America. Is that your take, Deborah?

BURLINGAME: It is. It's my take, it's his take.

HANNITY: That's a great point.

BURLINGAME: And in fact he's really trying to get Sharia, sneak it in, hoping that Americans aren't familiar with their own Constitution. Americans do understand the concept of the separation of church and state. And Muslims here in this country understand — who have embraced the American way of life, have embraced the concept of separation of mosque and state.

But look what he's doing when he goes abroad. This book...

HANNITY: You — I wanted to point this out. You brought this — this is in this book. This is the imam that is — is spearheading the effort to build the mosque. These are his words. He's the one that has argued that Sharia Law could be used in the U.S., because they can have their own courts and religious leaders, correct?

BURLINGAME: Yes. But — but when he published this in 2007 in the Muslim world, he didn't call it "What's Right With Islam" and a later title, "What's Right with America." He called it "A Call to Prayer From the World Trade Center Rubble: Islamic Da'wah From the Heart of America..."

HANNITY: Meaning?

BURLINGAME: "... Post-9/11." Robert, tell him what da'wah means.

SPENCER: Da'wah is Islamic proselytizing. And in the Islamic law, da'wah precedes jihad. You call the nonbelievers to Islam. And if they refuse to accept it, then you initiate the jihad against them. But the whole goal of both da'wah and jihad is to impose Islamic law or Sharia upon the nonbelievers as a political system, not as a religious one.

HANNITY: What about the controversy — controversy involving his father?

SPENCER: The controversy involving his father involves the Muslim Brotherhood and the fact that this guy has ties to this group that is, in its own words, "dedicated to eliminating and destroying western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house."

HANNITY: So you both believe — and as I read this, this is becoming more and more alarming to me. And you have been very nice to give me a copy of the book and tell me about the translation when it was first published, you know, in other countries — that he would want to impose or at least allow for Muslims to have the ability to transcend the American court system.

SPENCER: Oh, yes.

HANNITY: Explain Sharia Law. Why don't we go into in just a little detail in the short time we have?

SPENCER: Well, Sharia Law denies equality of rights...

HANNITY: To women.

SPENCER: ... to non-Muslims, to women.

HANNITY: Right, right.

SPENCER: And it does not allow for them to operate in an equal system.

See, the thing about Sharia is unlike — you mentioned Jewish courts in the beginning, Sean. The thing, the difference is, is that no other religious system makes rules for people who are outside the religion. But Islamic law does. And it mandates, institutionalizes the subjugation of non-Muslims. And so that's what Feisal Abdul Rauf is actually calling for.

BURLINGAME: And let me also add, this man has close ties to the Malaysian government. The Cordova Initiative, his — his operation that's going to build this mosque, is funded by the Malaysian government. He has offices in Malaysia. That's where he published this book.

And in Malaysia, in the Sharia courts, Sharia courts are mandated. No Muslim can go into a civil court. They have to have their things adjudicated in these courts. There are penalties for converting to Christianity there.

HANNITY: You lost your brother. Your brother was the pilot of the American Airlines flight that hit the — the Pentagon.

BURLINGAME: Right.

HANNITY: All right. Mayor Bloomberg just raced out there, at least through a spokesman and others. And all of this is fine, these people that are opposing this, this is outrageous.

BURLINGAME: I don't think that's what he said, Sean. To give him credit, his — his remark was very neutral. What he said was...

HANNITY: They have a right to...

BURLINGAME: They — they have lawfully purchased this property. And they have a right to build. In other words, he wasn't endorsing the project. Imam Rauf and his wife are saying that. But he has uttered no such thing.

HANNITY: Listen, if all of this is true and with the relationship of his father, should he even be in the U.S.? I'll ask both of you quick.

SPENCER: Feisal Abdul Rauf needs to be questioned with his followers as to whether his loyalty is really with the U.S. Constitution or not.

HANNITY: Do you think — what do you suspect?

SPENCER: Oh, I don't think he is at all. I think he wants to impose Islamic law here. He's very explicit about that, in fact.

BURLINGAME: I believe he does embrace the Constitution, and he knows if he gets enough Muslims voting in the voting booth he can change the Constitution to accept Sharia and create Sharia courts right here. That's what da'wah will do.

HANNITY: We'll continue to follow the story. Guys, thanks very much. We appreciate it
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 07:50:51 am by michaelintp »

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2010, 08:32:46 am »
Non-issue. There are titty bars two blocks from Ground Zero, why not a church, mosque or temple? 

As for the Islamifaction of the US legal system, I can't imagine a scenario where that ever gets traction.  Too many people who dislike Islam to the point of bigotry in some cases, and, quite frankly, what they are selling isn't that attractive to the average American. 


Offline Redjack

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Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2010, 08:34:21 am »
Jesus was cool with slavery, kids. (Colossians 3:22, Ephesians 6:5) How does that sit with you? You follow his words, right?  ;)
Nice try.
Jesus never condoned the cruel and ruthless slavery that humans have brought upon one another.
The slavery Jesus "was cool with" was serving people with absolute selfless love, regardless what positions we are in: doctors, teachers, employers and employees, parents and children.
He taught that the two most important commandments are 1) love God, and 2) love others as you love yourself. It's that simple, but you know this don't you?

Yeah. No. In fact Jesus said a lot of stuff and some of it was crap. Just like Mohammed and the prophets of the OT/ Torah. Depending on the era and location, so-called believers have picked and chosen which bits they like and will support and which they don't and won't. I'm always stunned at how these choices are made considering the whole book- whichever one you're using- is supposed to have come from God. It's a neat trick.

This isn't a theological debate. It's an ethical one.

While the slavery practiced in the ancient world was not the same sort we had here in the US , the kind Jesus was used to was no less brutal. There's no such thing as sweet slavery. There is no version of it that falls under the heading of benign or loving. Sorry. It's not a "nice try." It's an accurate understanding of the world in which your savior lived and the people to whom he was preaching his Good News.

You don't get to rewrite that in order to make him sweeter. When he was talking about slaves, he was talking about actual human beings who were considered property. He was fine with the concept and the practice and there's no getting around it. What has changed since then is not the words but the people in the real world. Those words, those particular words, had nothing to do with it.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 08:49:32 am by Redjack »
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Offline Redjack

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Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2010, 08:36:37 am »
I'm not trying to make fun or say your faiths aren't valuable.
Well actually, you are. You try to get a rise out of believers by belittling their faith/beliefs with snide remarks( "ya'll believe in magic", "Blacks amuse me with this God belief", etc). The thing I'm trying to understand is WHY? What is your objective in doing that? To believers, you're not saying anything new. Here's what amuses me, when folks write things like that, they remind me of some who think that the "magic bullet" to hurting a mentally strong Black person's feelings, it to say "Nˇgger". Never been called that before. :o ;D

No, I'm not. I'm not trying to get a rise out of them. I've been surrounded by Believers my entire life. I think their world view is sweet when it makes them do good works and sh*tty when it makes them intolerant, judgmental pricks. Most people who claim to follow a faith haven't even done the minimum necessary to understand it  i.e. reading the foundational documents and knowing what their Gods have asked them to do. I have read those books and many more besides so, far from belittling them, I'd like to understand how they get to point the finger. More than that, I'd like them to stop.

If you're going to call Islam a barbaric faith, you'd better be doing it from somewhere other than a christian or jewish position.

I don't actually care about the magic in itself, only what belief in it makes one do.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 09:54:17 am by Redjack »
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Offline Francisco

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Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2010, 09:12:33 am »
Non-issue. There are titty bars two blocks from Ground Zero, why not a church, mosque or temple? 

As for the Islamifaction of the US legal system, I can't imagine a scenario where that ever gets traction.  Too many people who dislike Islam to the point of bigotry in some cases, and, quite frankly, what they are selling isn't that attractive to the average American. 


You just let them get enough numbers and they will start waging war against the infidel. That's how it works. (Ask Indonesia and every other Asian country were Islam has been allowed to prosper) So they want to build a mosque near ground zero? Fine, let them have it. So they want to instate communities under their own sharia laws? No f*cking hell no!! Secularism is the right way to go if they don't like it then they can go back to the middle east. As simple as that.

If we can have Jesus fighting Hitler in the octagon with no one getting killed for been a blasphemer we should be able to watch a south park episode depicting Mohamed without anybody receiving death treats or been killed as well.
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Offline BmoreAkuma

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Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2010, 09:22:43 am »
Well actually, you are. You try to get a rise out of believers by belittling their faith/beliefs with snide remarks( "ya'll believe in magic", "Blacks amuse me with this God belief", etc). The thing I'm trying to understand is WHY? What is your objective in doing that? To believers, you're not saying anything new. Here's what amuses me, when folks write things like that, they remind me of some who think that the "magic bullet" to hurting a mentally strong Black person's feelings, it to say "Nˇgger". Never been called that before. :o ;D
If he isnt saying anything new then the question is why would some still follow the faith is his point. No it doesnt come across as snide. It is a very serious question to be asked. And honestly most don't have the proper answer.


Quote
If we can have Jesus fighting Hitler in the octagon with no one getting killed for been a blasphemer we should be able to watch a south park episode depicting Mohamed without anybody receiving death treats or been killed as well.
That is a fair assessment to have
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Offline moor

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Re: Tea Party leader, Mark Williams says Muslims worship a "monkey god"
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2010, 09:28:27 am »
I'm not trying to make fun or say your faiths aren't valuable.
Well actually, you are. You try to get a rise out of believers by belittling their faith/beliefs with snide remarks( "ya'll believe in magic", "Blacks amuse me with this God belief", etc). The thing I'm trying to understand is WHY? What is your objective in doing that? To believers, you're not saying anything new. Here's what amuses me, when folks write things like that, they remind me of some who think that the "magic bullet" to hurting a mentally strong Black person's feelings, it to say "Nˇgger". Never been called that before. :o ;D

No, I'm not. I'm not trying to get a rise out of them. I've been surrounded by Believers my entire life. I think their world view is sweet when it makes them do good works and sh*tty when it makes them intolerant, judgmental pricks. Most people who claim to follow a faith haven't even done the minimum necessary to understand it  i.e. reading the foundational documents and knowing what their God's have asked them to do. I have read those books and many more besides so, far from belittling them, I'd like to understand how they get to point the finger. More than that, I'd like them to stop.

If you're going to call Islam a barbaric faith, you'd better be doing it from somewhere other than a christian or jewish position.

I don't actually care about the magic in itself, only what belief in it makes one do.



Without belittling any of the points you made, Red, I have to say that my experience is this is true no matter what informs a person's world-view.  It's like you said, people who claim to follow a faith can give any number of reasons for justification of their actions.  I don't know that human behavior is necessarily the best barometer for spiritual doctrines, at least when you're referring to Christianity and Judaism.  I know the Koran views the aspect of "original sin" a lot differently, but I'd gather it gets short-changed in that respect as well.

If you ask 9 out of 10 people to define "faith", most would probably give you an inadequate explanation.