Author Topic: Doomwar # 4 Review!  (Read 6320 times)

Offline Emperorjones

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Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2010, 04:34:17 am »
I feel what Kip is saying, but I don't totally agree. I think he is generalizing why people read comics. I think a lot of people read comics or other books for conflict, regarding comics its not always about super powered fights. There are successful comics out there, many in the Vertigo line, that don't have superheroes at all in them, like Scalped. Same with stuff like Walking Dead. Or other horror/sci-fi/or crime books.

It's conflict, whether internal or external for characters that keeps many people reading and coming back. As I said previously, I do agree that way too much action was off stage. But I disagree that a lot happened in issue 4. Almost nothing happened, except Doom and T'Challa-Richards talking sprinkled with a few fight scenes. I really don't get a sense that the world is really threatened in Doom War. I really think its a bit much after Siege anyway. The same could be said for Fall of the Hulks. Too much crap happening at one time diminishes the impact of Doom War, the event I cared most about, but has gotten the shortest shrift compared to Siege and Hulks. And now the Heroic Age is upon us.

After reading more comments on this board, I'm even less sanguine about Issue #4 and this storyline. Even if the editorial board forced an extension of this series, I think they should make each issue relevant and present some type of change or challenge for the main characters. To some extent this was done I guess with T'Challa starting to at least talk about shadow physics. It would've been nice to actually see him do something about it, to actually begin experimenting with it as a closer as opposed to the Deadpool conclusion. Deadpool should've been more in the book itself since he was on the cover and his appearance had been hyped. What some other posters have suggested about the T'Challa-Storm face time is right on. I can also understand the argument that nothing the X-Men or FF have done couldn't have been done by a Wakandan.

Doom War was awesome at first, but now its becoming unraveled to me. At this point, I'm enjoying Flags of our Fathers more. It doesn't rely on unnecessary cameos and doesn't feel bloated. The Nazis' motivations are clear and their actions have been for the most part. I know that Doom is generally grandiose, but I think these creatures he's created are a bit much as is the way he seemed to want to conquer the world. There are other ways of doing that, economics, technology, bioweapons, etc. than just brute force. How about creating an economic/political system so enticing that people will flock to it? Or founding a new religion, or something. Take it to another level. If Doom is so great, why does he do the same old beat you into submission stuff? Don't get me wrong, I like action as much as the next person, but I would like to see something from Doom that lives up to his hype. Admittedly I've never been much of a Doom or FF fan. Though I've always liked Doom's costume and how he sometimes speaks in third person. Plus, he has one of the coolest names ever. But I've never followed his stories. So, I had hoped despite the title that T'Challa and the Wakandans would be the center of the story, but they are guest stars at best among an ensemble featuring the FF and X-Men, and might be further eclipsed by Deadpool in Issue #5. I'm curious to see how Maberry pulls it all together. I think he is a talented writer and I liked what he did as a run-up to Doom War, but my interest has waned in the series the more its focused on Doom pontificating at the expense of making this at least a shared major event for T'Challa as well, where we can see great moments and game changing character developments or actions for him too.

I wish that Doom War had remained its original length and packed more punch into each installment, like War of the Supermen did. Though the Superman books did suffer from rushed battles and off-stage action as well, I guess to fit within a four issue miniseries. With War of the Supermen at least Superman/Kal-El stayed the main character despite it being about the "Supermen". I wish Doom War had kept T'Challa as the main character, since it was originally billed as a Black Panther event and the rebooted series pretty much was the prologue for it.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 04:44:39 am by Emperorjones »

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2010, 04:51:59 am »
<<I think he is generalizing why people read comics>>

Of course its a generalization, and I should said "people read super-hero comics for super-powered fights" but even that is a generalization.  But remembering that one of the goals is to make BP popular, means writing and selling to the "generalization".

<<Almost nothing happened, except Doom and T'Challa-Richards talking sprinkled with a few fight scenes. I really don't get a sense that the world is really threatened in Doom War.>>

A lot did happen, but they rushed over the "lot" to get to the techno-babble.  See normally in this stage 2 senerio, the heroes struggle for an issue or two to try and stop the villain from using what he stole in stage 1.  They use this stage to build suspense that this is "BAD".  But JM jumped stage 2 and had the heroes immediately fight the "new" Doombots and thus you lost that feeling of danger.  So I think we're both right.  Stuff happened to move the story forward, but it wasn't the best way to build the story flow.

Offline Open palm

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Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2010, 07:30:22 pm »
I haven't had much time to fully read this issue. I came back from Hawaii and I'm busy preparing for my move 'Down Under'.

Action-wise it wasn't as spectacular as the previous issues. Maybe the conservative use of space denies some great parts more flare. Having the Thing wrap some Vibranium around his fists was cool, but maybe it needed that "Image Comics" touch. The same could have been done with Shuri appearing in her battle armor.

There's a lull in the plot, as we see Doom still winning against them. I like how Shuri's persistence ironically is standing up to Doom's plans. Pointing out that Doom is a day away from winning is a nice touch. But I love seeing how T'Challa thinks like a war leader while Mr. Fantastic is still very much a scientist. He pulls the same stunt Batman did when he hired Mirror Master to betray Lex Luthor. Deadpool was irritating, but it proves how far T'Challa is willing to go. Maybe if we knew how Doom will act with this new Vibranium power would help build the suspense. For now it's just tit-for-tat.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 05:46:10 pm by Open palm »
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Offline Seven

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Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2010, 11:45:51 am »
I feel what Kip is saying, but I don't totally agree. I think he is generalizing why people read comics. I think a lot of people read comics or other books for conflict, regarding comics its not always about super powered fights. There are successful comics out there, many in the Vertigo line, that don't have superheroes at all in them, like Scalped. Same with stuff like Walking Dead. Or other horror/sci-fi/or crime books.

It's conflict, whether internal or external for characters that keeps many people reading and coming back. As I said previously, I do agree that way too much action was off stage. But I disagree that a lot happened in issue 4. Almost nothing happened, except Doom and T'Challa-Richards talking sprinkled with a few fight scenes. I really don't get a sense that the world is really threatened in Doom War. I really think its a bit much after Siege anyway. The same could be said for Fall of the Hulks. Too much crap happening at one time diminishes the impact of Doom War, the event I cared most about, but has gotten the shortest shrift compared to Siege and Hulks. And now the Heroic Age is upon us.

After reading more comments on this board, I'm even less sanguine about Issue #4 and this storyline. Even if the editorial board forced an extension of this series, I think they should make each issue relevant and present some type of change or challenge for the main characters. To some extent this was done I guess with T'Challa starting to at least talk about shadow physics. It would've been nice to actually see him do something about it, to actually begin experimenting with it as a closer as opposed to the Deadpool conclusion. Deadpool should've been more in the book itself since he was on the cover and his appearance had been hyped. What some other posters have suggested about the T'Challa-Storm face time is right on. I can also understand the argument that nothing the X-Men or FF have done couldn't have been done by a Wakandan.

Doom War was awesome at first, but now its becoming unraveled to me. At this point, I'm enjoying Flags of our Fathers more. It doesn't rely on unnecessary cameos and doesn't feel bloated. The Nazis' motivations are clear and their actions have been for the most part. I know that Doom is generally grandiose, but I think these creatures he's created are a bit much as is the way he seemed to want to conquer the world. There are other ways of doing that, economics, technology, bioweapons, etc. than just brute force. How about creating an economic/political system so enticing that people will flock to it? Or founding a new religion, or something. Take it to another level. If Doom is so great, why does he do the same old beat you into submission stuff? Don't get me wrong, I like action as much as the next person, but I would like to see something from Doom that lives up to his hype. Admittedly I've never been much of a Doom or FF fan. Though I've always liked Doom's costume and how he sometimes speaks in third person. Plus, he has one of the coolest names ever. But I've never followed his stories. So, I had hoped despite the title that T'Challa and the Wakandans would be the center of the story, but they are guest stars at best among an ensemble featuring the FF and X-Men, and might be further eclipsed by Deadpool in Issue #5. I'm curious to see how Maberry pulls it all together. I think he is a talented writer and I liked what he did as a run-up to Doom War, but my interest has waned in the series the more its focused on Doom pontificating at the expense of making this at least a shared major event for T'Challa as well, where we can see great moments and game changing character developments or actions for him too.

I wish that Doom War had remained its original length and packed more punch into each installment, like War of the Supermen did. Though the Superman books did suffer from rushed battles and off-stage action as well, I guess to fit within a four issue miniseries. With War of the Supermen at least Superman/Kal-El stayed the main character despite it being about the "Supermen". I wish Doom War had kept T'Challa as the main character, since it was originally billed as a Black Panther event and the rebooted series pretty much was the prologue for it.



Doomwar missed the boat when it ignored T'challa getting revenge on Doom. That is how it was setting up...then they just changed it and it has suffered because of it. The Story would have been epic if they would have just did that...and if T'challa was doing what Shuri is now...


Offline Kimoyo

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Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2010, 01:26:36 pm »
<<I think he is generalizing why people read comics>>

Of course its a generalization, and I should said "people read super-hero comics for super-powered fights" but even that is a generalization.  But remembering that one of the goals is to make BP popular, means writing and selling to the "generalization".

Kip, I couldn't agree with you more!  One of my hopes for BP/T'Challa, when I heard Jon had become involved, knowing Jon and his martial arts background, was that we would see T'Challa kicking some serious tail, hand-to-hand much like we have seen from Shuri.  Given the popularity of the MMA and UFA, what better way to entice a larger audience for BP than to give the existing fans what they've longed for and tie into a major interest for so many that is totally credible given T'Challa's abilities and station as the warrior-King of Wakanda?  Add a revenge motive that includes a near death experience, an invasive deployment of technology in Wakanda that threatened the life of his wife, mother, uncle...,the death of close friends and advisors in part due to his incapacitation and the overthrow of the Wakandan government all at the hands of Doom. 

I think Marvel missed an opportunity to really take BP/T'Challa to the next level.  I would have preferred T'Challa's upgrades to be the additional benefit of an Alchemic procedure that was intended as the potentially leathal but only option for to getting him back fully functioning, but the biggest opportunity missed is the possibility of boosting sales of the book by tying into the popularity of ultimate fighting.  My two cents.

Peace,

Mont

Offline Seven

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Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2010, 01:46:10 pm »
<<I think he is generalizing why people read comics>>

Of course its a generalization, and I should said "people read super-hero comics for super-powered fights" but even that is a generalization.  But remembering that one of the goals is to make BP popular, means writing and selling to the "generalization".


I agree with K.I.P here also...but have we see that. If I was a new reader...there is no way I would pick up the Black Panther comic...because they are doing *nothing* cool of note. That's Doomwar...Doom is the winner here...he is the one that looks cool here...at the expense of T'challa.

Contrast that with Jason Aaron's S.I "See Wakanda and Die"...critically acclaimed, made the New York Best sellers list….With T’challa being totally bad ass…with T’challa taking names and kicking ass.

That had people pumped up for volume 5...and Mr. Huldin rocked it...and Doomwar wasted it (with regards to T'challa).

Doomwar is awesome...but I don't see it getting people to read Black Panther.

You want people to read Black Panther...treat him just like you would if you were writing Batman. That's basically what Jason Aaron did, and what Priest and G.Johns did...
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 01:50:30 pm by Seven »

Offline Kimoyo

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Re: Doomwar # 4 Review!
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2010, 03:27:19 pm »
Doomwar is awesome...but I don't see it getting people to read Black Panther.

Agreed, at least not as of issue #4 even considering that Shuri is the Black Panther.  As kick-a$# as she has been
I personally don't see her standing out in a way that would drive people to the "Black Panther" title.  All the action is incredibly taking a back seat to the chess match, IMO.

You want people to read Black Panther...treat him just like you would if you were writing Batman. That's basically what Jason Aaron did, and what Priest and G.Johns did...

Jon has a unique gift for writing action that lends itself well to comics as a medium.  The visual representation of strikes and manuevers executed by Shuri in the "Power" arc and even a couple early on in "Doom War" did stand out even though I found myself wishing it was T'Challa that had been depicted as executing them.  This is what I believe T'Challa needed as BP.  T'Challa has not engaged in any sustained, physical, hand-to-hand-to-foot action in recent memory including Aaron's excellent "See Wakanda and Die!"  You'd have to go back to Reg's turn with "Little Green Men."   IMO, Marvel had the right man and took the wrong direction.  T'Challa executing some vicious hand-to-hand followed by a Gracie-esque submission might just have been the kind of thing the Doctor ordered.

Peace,

Mont