Author Topic: Can a non wakandan convert or practice Panther worship?  (Read 13381 times)

Offline bluezulu

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Re: Can a non wakandan convert or practice Panther worship?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2007, 06:55:17 am »
bi-racial children born to american soldiers and asian women have not been accepted in korea, does not mean that they are you know accepted in korea if that makes sense. Just as women have a lot to overcome to be accepted as the head of the church, im sure outsiders in some form or fashion find ways to be accepted in the wakandan circles. Going back to moses in egypt there has always been loopholes in the world.

Offline Princesa

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Re: Can a non wakandan convert or practice Panther worship?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2007, 10:00:38 am »
I think this is a fascinating thread and I'd love to see the mysticism of Wankanda explored. I have some thoughts on that...

Offline Ammar

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Re: Can a non wakandan convert or practice Panther worship?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2007, 10:24:12 am »
bi-racial children born to american soldiers and asian women have not been accepted in korea, does not mean that they are you know accepted in korea if that makes sense. Just as women have a lot to overcome to be accepted as the head of the church, im sure outsiders in some form or fashion find ways to be accepted in the wakandan circles. Going back to moses in egypt there has always been loopholes in the world.

Well yes, accepted. But I don't think non-Wakandans are going to get loved like their sisters/brothers.

Offline kitamu Re

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Re: Can a non wakandan convert or practice Panther worship?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2007, 10:41:30 am »
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Well yes, accepted. But I don't think non-Wakandans are going to get loved like their sisters/brothers.

are you referring to wakandans of mixed african ancestry or those with european ancestry. I am so sick of the tarzan syndrome >:(

Offline Ammar

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Re: Can a non wakandan convert or practice Panther worship?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2007, 10:43:09 am »
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Well yes, accepted. But I don't think non-Wakandans are going to get loved like their sisters/brothers.

are you referring to wakandans of mixed african ancestry or those with european ancestry. I am so sick of the tarzan syndrome >:(

Both, although Wakandans seem more leniant against those that are just from different parts in Africa

Offline Open palm

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Re: Can a non wakandan convert or practice Panther worship?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2007, 06:31:07 pm »
I think this is a fascinating thread and I'd love to see the mysticism of Wankanda explored. I have some thoughts on that...

Back in Avengers: Illuminati (not the mini-series) King T'Challa offered a meeting between Dr. Strange and his high priests. Who knows what might have been revealed if that took place.
Do you prefer a hero who will confirm your deepest fears? Or a hero who will inspire faith in humanity and goodness?

Offline Ammar

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Re: Can a non wakandan convert or practice Panther worship?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2007, 06:34:40 pm »
I think this is a fascinating thread and I'd love to see the mysticism of Wankanda explored. I have some thoughts on that...

Back in Avengers: Illuminati (not the mini-series) King T'Challa offered a meeting between Dr. Strange and his high priests. Who knows what might have been revealed if that took place.

Which also reminds me, didn't he say that the priest would love to meet Strange?


Offline zulu801

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Re: Can a non wakandan convert or practice Panther worship?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2007, 06:37:35 pm »
I think this is a fascinating thread and I'd love to see the mysticism of Wankanda explored. I have some thoughts on that...

Back in Avengers: Illuminati (not the mini-series) King T'Challa offered a meeting between Dr. Strange and his high priests. Who knows what might have been revealed if that took place.

Dr. Strange would have been schooled on mysticism all over again!

Offline Ammar

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Re: Can a non wakandan convert or practice Panther worship?
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2007, 06:39:38 pm »
I think this is a fascinating thread and I'd love to see the mysticism of Wankanda explored. I have some thoughts on that...

Back in Avengers: Illuminati (not the mini-series) King T'Challa offered a meeting between Dr. Strange and his high priests. Who knows what might have been revealed if that took place.

Dr. Strange would have been schooled on mysticism all over again!

I highly doubt that.

He is the Sorceror Supreme after all

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Can a non wakandan convert or practice Panther worship?
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2007, 06:48:50 pm »
I think this is a fascinating thread and I'd love to see the mysticism of Wankanda explored. I have some thoughts on that...
So discuss.  Come on in, the water's fine.
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Offline sinjection

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Re: Can a non wakandan convert or practice Panther worship?
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2007, 11:02:25 pm »
Well, if the Wakandans conquered whoever had the Lion God as their deity, maybe they chose to integrate that religion into their own, with the Lion God being subordinate to the Panther God? Therefore, in the hierarchy of the religion, you get 'Lion-priests' who are still subordinate to the 'Panther-Pope'.

 :o

 :D

Now I remember the earlier discussion I had with the formidable Wise Son, the discussion that in effect, had me pleading for a truce  :D

I think I had to yield to Wise Son's point that the Lion God was actually worshipped by a competing Wakandan cult and that many of the Lion God's followers abandoned him and began to worship the Panther God instead.

What still does not make sense to me is this. How is it that the "Golden Lion" makes it into the Panther cult's religious hierarchy - along with the "White Tiger", an animal that is not even native to the African continent - while the White Gorilla cult is not represented in that religious heirarchy? Obviously, the lion and the tiger are both members of the panthera species. I get that. But the gorilla is an African animal. The tiger is not. Why would the African Wakandans even recognize it's existence? Where is the "Jade Jaguar"?  the "Purple Puma"? ... the "Turquoise TomCat"?  :D
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

Offline sinjection

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Re: Can a non wakandan convert or practice Panther worship?
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2007, 11:31:09 pm »
Ramonda - T'Chaka's second wife - was South African born wasn't she? Today, she is a high-ranking member of the Panther religion. In fact, as such, it was she who officiated at the Wedding Of The Century. Ramonda would have had to have converted to the Panther religion if her native South African clan were not Panther worshippers themselves.

According to Priest's version there are three levels to the  Black Panther cult.

Black Panther=Pope

Gold Lion=Bishop

White Tiger=Deacon

Only because Kasper's father was African was he even allowed to be a White Tiger.

This heirarchy never made sense to me. In AVENGERS #112 - written by Steve Englehart, the Lion God was re-animated by the human sacrifice of an unsuspecting African-Frenchman - Monsieur Umbala - to his idol. Once re-animated, the Lion God sought out and captured the Panther. The Lion God explained that the panther and the lion have always been rivals. The Lion God, angered that his worshippers had been outnumbered by the Panther God-worshipping Wakandans, intended to destroy the Panther and the Wakandans. How then does Priest reconcile having a "Golden Lion" station in the Panther religious heirarchy?

An aside: Anti-Hudlin folks complained that his having the Panther saying, "You've got me straight trippin', boo" made him appear to be "ghetto". In AVENGERS #112, Englehart's Panther says the following to the Lion God: "The Americans have taught me a phrase, Lion God -- Go spit in the ocean."  This is just me, but I think what Hudlin's Panther learned from "the Americans" is a vast improvement over what Englehart's Panther learned.

Finally, the "White Tiger" and its place in the Panther religious heirarchy. To date, there is no evidence to support that the type of tiger with which we are all most familiar, ever existed on the African continent. If anything, there are some who say that they have found the fossilized remains of the animal once known as the "saber-tooth tiger", but that animal was more lion than tiger. Even the name "tiger" is said to have been an inaccurate description for the animal. Saber tooth cat was preferred.

I think the only reason for Priest's religious heirarchy was as a means for him to work his "White Tiger/Kasper Cole" angle.

But back to the original question, it would seem that since Ramonda - a native South African - is now a high Priestess in the Panther religion, a non-Wakandan  should be able to convert to and practice Panther worship.

excellent post!!!  And yes Ramonda pretty much does prove that it is possible let alone White Wolf (yuck).  And yes I agree with you White Tiger assessment.  I've decided that if he were to be reintroduced into continuity then he needs to be retconned as the "white leopard" and for that matter white wolf should be the white jackal. I always thought that Priest got the designation of Bast for the Panther God from that early story of the lion god being Sehkmet.

From Wikipedia
Quote
In Egyptian mythology, Sekhmet (also spelt Sachmet, Sakhet, and Sakhmet; Greek name: Sacmis), was originally the war goddess of Upper Egypt, although when the first Pharaoh of the 12th dynasty moved the capital of Egypt to Memphis, her cult centre moved as well. She was also known by some cults to be a daughter of the ancient sun god, Ra (spelled "Ra" or "Re"). As Lower Egypt had been conquered by Upper Egypt, Sekhmet was seen as the more vicious of the two war goddesses, the other, Bast, being the war goddess of Lower Egypt. Consequently it was Sekhmet who was seen as the Avenger of Wrongs, and Scarlet Lady, a reference to blood. As the one with bloodlust, she was also seen as ruling over menstruation.

Thanks for the Wikipedia info, Yaw. It's very interesting. I seem to remember Open Palm discussing "Bast" sometime back. Once I reach my "8", I plan to read and digest this information while I hibernate.

I suppose that if it had to happen, I could live with Hunter, the "White Wolf" becoming a presence in this current run. Like you however, I think that re-naming him the "White Jackal" would be a good idea. I think the jackal - the actual animal - has gotten a bad rap and an unfortunate rep. While this is the case, I believe calling Hunter a jackal would fit him perfectly. He is a jealous, untrustworthy, deceitful and brutal man. The personification and characterization of the jackal as a sly, base person describes Hunter up and down.

I also agree with your idea that Kasper Cole should be renamed as well. Relating him to the leopard would be the best way to go. Originally, Lee and Kirby were calling The Black Panther, the Coal Tiger. I believe they did this because at the same time the two creative greats were developing the T'Challa concept - possibly even before they were doing so - a black political organization in Lowndes County, Alabama had formed for the purposes of protecting and promoting the black vote. That group saw that white democrats used the donkey as its visual avatar. White Republicans used the elephant and the white supremacist party was using the rooster  :) The Lowndes County group decided that they would also have a visual avatar with which they would be recognized. They chose as their symbol, a large, powerful black panther leaping to the attack. The Lowndes County organization became known as the Black Panther Party. I believe that Lee and Kirby were aware of the existence of that name and the manner in which it was being used, which is why they at first, attempted to model their African hero on the tiger rather than the leopard and its most recognizable "mutation", the black panther.

Probably having to accept the fact that the Coal Tiger wouldn't work that well - one reason being, there are no tigers in Africa - Lee and Kirby clothed T'Challa in the dynamic black uniform the character has made famous and feared and called him by the only name they possibly could, The Black Panther.

I don't believe there should ever be a Coal Tiger related to the Wakandan Panther cult. There is already a "White Tiger" and that character has its origins in the "Sons Of The Tiger", a group which was lead by an Asian male and practiced the Asian discipline of the martial arts. Anything "tiger-related" should therefore come from Asia, in my always humble opinion  ;)
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther

Offline Wise Son

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Re: Can a non wakandan convert or practice Panther worship?
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2007, 05:56:58 am »
What still does not make sense to me is this. How is it that the "Golden Lion" makes it into the Panther cult's religious hierarchy - along with the "White Tiger", an animal that is not even native to the African continent - while the White Gorilla cult is not represented in that religious heirarchy?
Maybe you've hit on one of the reasons for the antagonism between the Panther and gorilla cults?

You should apply for a no-prize! ;D
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 05:59:05 am by Wise Son »

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Offline sinjection

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Re: Can a non wakandan convert or practice Panther worship?
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2007, 02:57:15 am »
Maybe you've hit on one of the reasons for the antagonism between the Panther and gorilla cults?

I should be so lucky.

You should apply for a no-prize! ;D

The "no-prize" yet lives?  :D
Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther IS THE Black Panther