Author Topic: Doomwar: Return of Doormat Man (TM)....Perfect???  (Read 36794 times)

Offline Seven

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Doomwar: Return of Doormat Man (TM)....Perfect???
« on: June 09, 2010, 09:07:38 am »
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There have been many, many stories that have established T'Challa as perfect, or as close to perfect as anyone in the Marvel U can be. But if we're to regard him as human we need to address his flaws as well as his strengths.

---J. Maberry

 
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per•fect: being entirely without fault or defect


Comic book fans can be rabid, crazy, and more. We love our characters, and often time we take real interest in these characters because we are invested in them.  

Most people on this forum are Black Panther fans. Sadly with Doomwar, even though it’s a good read. The title represents a huge missed opportunity and indifference and horrible misjudgment from marvel and the creative team.

It really does not make sense to totally alienate the small but loyal hard core fan base that T’challa has…there is no excuse for it at all. There is simply no way to explain it away. It doesn’t make sense to totally ignore how The Deadliest of the Species set up a possible rematch and revenge story between T’challa and Doom…and that he arcs after it did the same thing…only to totally shift in an entirely new direction.

T’challa is the only minority character in comics (besides Spawn, who is disfigured) that has shown the ability to hold a solo title. Not Storm, Not Luke Cage, Not anyone else. Even though his title struggles and has its ups and downs (which in my opinion is dude a number of differing issues).  He has a very loyal, but fractured fan base that just wants to see the best for the character.

So some reason, Marvel can never get it together with this character. For every thing that they do that is great; things that are positive steps forward, they do something stupid and foolish that take the character several steps backward.

But I digress.

Perfect? T’challa and perfect should really never be used in the same sentence unless we are talking about his prior physical condition. T’challa has *never* been perfect. This passage was really disturbing in my opinion. More so then calling Shuri a thug, Because when you take two comments into consideration…it shows that the creative teams is listening to people who are not fans of The Black Panther, people who *never* will be fans…and are probably not even reading the book…haters, defenders of the status quo. Thus Doomwar no longer being a Black Panther title, which was what the book was bash for early on, and it’s the same reason that the small but hard core fans base of T’challa…are leaving the title…and thus major decline in sales.

It’s one thing to explore his many flaws. Like his inferiority to his father leadership as king. How he never knew his real mother, and how the person he regarded as mother was held hostage for over 10 years. How about the fact that even when he plans, they don’t always go how he wants…how even his closet friends and allies don’t trust him. How being the king that he can be lonely, until recently with his marriage to Storm...who should be the only persons besides the Queen Mother who he shows his emotions.  How about watching his father and people be slaughter in front of his eyes…there are other ways of exploring flaws…without making a hero look like a chump.

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There have been many, many stories that have established T'Challa as perfect, or as close to perfect as anyone in the Marvel U can be


You mean like Thor or Captain America Steve Rogers. The later being the most perfect character aside of Superman. Really…T’challa is like that…get out of here. That’s flat out misinformation. T’challa is no where near that…

Perfect? Even with recent history, T’challa isn’t shown as perfect.

Like Black Panther #19: World Tour, where Doctor Doom chocked T’challa out  and had him by the neck…and Storm saved him. You mean perfect like Black Panther: Back To Africa (#35-38) where T’challa was getting his ass kicked by E. Killmonger and was saved by Monica R…Perfect like having the Shadow king take over his mind in Worlds Apart #1-4 and once again was saved by Storm? You mean perfect as in getting chocked out by Sabertooth in Wolverine, and was even saved by Logan?

These all happened recently. Recent history. There is nothing perfect about these things.


He wasn’t prefect in the classic Avengers Red Zone by G. Johns, but he was a compelling hero. He wasn’t perfect in the four-issue miniseries Black Panther, appeared in 1988, written by Peter B. Gillis and penciled by Denys Cowan. I mean come on really…You believe that T’challa is perfect?  

I have not even touched stories from Christopher J. Priest's or Don McGregor (Jungle Action #6-24) no way you can consider him perfect there.…or his tenure with Roy Thomas; standing in the background with the Avengers during the 70’s ,80’s and early 90’s and the absolute rape of the character, or how he hardly appeared at all in the eighties…him getting beat down by kids in Don McGregor Jungle Action...but he is perfect?
 
Lets listen to someone who has a clue about the characterization of T’challa.

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The guy who showed up in FANTASTIC FOUR #52 was definitely _not_ Tarzan. He wasn't clueless or uneducated. He used a _lot_ more gadgets than I do in the current series. He was duplicitous, mysterious, dangerous, ruthless, humorous, and violent. I'm not sure which guy my critics are talking about, but I tend to think the Panther I'm writing is more in line with Stan and Jack's vision that Doormat Man (TM) who has traditionally been the colorless, humorless, often clueless guy standing in the back row of the Avengers class picture, or showing up for the odd guest-shot to fight *yawn* Klaw again, the guy who got beat up and dragged more often than I can mention. If THAT is the guy my critics are longing for, I have to wonder why


Again…


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What was even odder, for me, was the uproar of fans outraged by our evolution of the character into an extremely capable and not always clearly heroic figure, a man of uncertainty and mystery who used all of the vast resources at his disposal to accomplish his goals. Cries of heresy went forth from readers who hadn't ever read our book and, more to the point, who likely didn't support BLACK PANTHER in any of the several incarnations of ongoing adventures Marvel has attempted. Expletive-laden rants came in from people who know nothing about Panther, never really bought Panther on any regular basis, and who, frankly, think Panther is lame but who have bought into the severely errant illogic of the day —  the de-evolution of a very clever and very unique character created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. Again and again I was asked, "How dare you change Panther!", to which I replied, "I didn't change Panther—  other writers over the years changed Panther, losing sight of FF #52. *I* changed him back."

----Priest

Really… Perfect?


Yet some how, T’challa being “perfect” has managed to influence and possibly ruined what could have been one of the most epic Black Panther stories ever. Perfect is the position of people who *don’t* even like the character. Haters; who are not supporting the book, NEVER HAVE, and *NEVER* will.

T’challa is no different from Bruce Wayne. Here is what Wizard said about Batman in their 200 platinum anniversary issue, where Batman was ranked #2 behind Wolverine.

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[…] And if anyone crosses this all-too-human Dark Knight Detective-
Whether it be Superman, Joker, even Darkseid- he will find a way to beat them. That’s why he’s emerged as a pop-culture demigod-


Hmmm…no wonder why Secret Invasion: See Wakanda and Die by Jason Aaron is consider on of the best recent Panther stories of all time. It’s compelling. We see T’challa in complete bad ass mode. King Batman…if you will…and what did you get. Joe Q saying it was the best Secret Invasion story, critically rave reviews, excitement about the character, New York best sellers list for trade paper back…and what does marvel do. Mess it all up…

Is T’challa prefect?…or can he be compelling like other *heroes*? Why is there a need to destroy him to prove he is not prefect…when you have other examples other heroes that you can really call prefect based off of what happened in the actual stories, not the opinions of people who are not even fans. Folks who don’t even have sake in the character at all….we have read these sort of stories for a very long TIME.  It the same reason folks started dropping Priest run…and why we saw a drop during “Back to Africa” arc…and why they are walking away now.

Can we please for once explore his flaws without him getting his ass kicked totally…like he did for nearly 30 years? We are sick of Doormat Man (TM).

It’s disturbing that this is a talking point. Proving that T’challa is not perfect, when it pretty clear that he has never been shown to be perfect, he has always been shown to have flaws…he has always been the Byronic hero…and there is no need to have him embarrassed and ran circles around at the expense of another character…to *prove something that is not true…as the  This is why I understand the backlash; I mean we have not seen T’challa in action since Secret Invasion: See Wakanda and Die (#39-41) Jason Aaron ---August of 08.

All we have see is the character being taken through hell…no wonder the sales are falling. No wonder that fans of Black Panther are *not* happy

T’challa has been out of action for almost two years…doing nothing. Getting his ass kicked by Doom again…his Dora’s murdered, his uncle murdered, his nation taken over…his wife disrespected and a gun pointed at her…and his mother for that matter…and he is doing nothing but being the general and talking.

That is not com.pel.ling.

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com.pel.ling. adj 1. arousing or denoting strong interest, esp admiring interest


There is nothing at all compelling with what T’challa is currently doing. In fact this hurts the character. It does not prove he is not prefect, but nurtures him like a stray cat.  Marvel said this was the “big year for T’challa and the Black Panther cast”…and I still have hope…but we have not seen anything yet.

The fact that fan boy hater talking points are having any sort of influence on the creative process of this character is sad and disturbing.

Here you can see a list of the arcs that were voted the best Black Panther stories on CBR.
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2010/05/07/the-greatest-black-panther-stories-ever-told/

1.   Black Panther Vol. 3 #1-5 "The Client"
2.   Fantastic Four #52-53 " Introducing the Sensational Black Panther"
3.   Jungle Action #6-18 "Panther's Rage"
4.   Black Panther Vol. 3 #26-29 "Sturm und Drang"
5.   Black Panther Vol. 3 #6-12 "Enemy of the State"
6.   Black Panther Vol. 4 #39-41 "See Wakanda and Die"
7.   Black Panther Vol. 3 #41-45 "Enemy of the State II"
8.   Black Panther Vol. 4 #1-6 "Who is the Black Panther?"
9.   Black Panther Vol. 3 #16-20 "Killmonger's Rage"
10.   Jungle Action #19-22, 24 and Marvel Premiere #51-53 "Black Panther vs. The Klan"

The closest story to perfect…out of these stories are #6 and you have to take the entire run into consideration…he lost to Doom and Killmonger during volume 4 …and was saved by others…and how in Who is the Black Panther, Klaw shot him through the chest/shoulder…

He has been owned by the Shadow King, just before this volume (# 5) started out with him getting *owned* by Doom…and all we are going to get is A Pyrrhic victory.

This is the uncut truth of why fans of Black Panther are not digging Doomwar. That and a force push that is greater then yoda of Shuri as the Black Panther.  It really makes zero sense that she is more upset and has more at stake her then a person who has/was

*Nearly murdered at the hands of Doom.
*His two body guards murdered at the hands of Doom.
*Lost his ruler ship of Wakanda at the hands of Doom.
*Lost his uncle and advisors because of Doom (Zuri and W’kabi included).
*His wife being held for execution, and also a gun held to her head.
*His mother being executed and also had a gun held to her head.
*Bast siding with Doom.
*Taking over his country after almost *killing him*.
* Infecting his wife with nano machines.


And we are suppose to believe that Shuri is more offended then T’challa? That Shuri is supposed to be more upset...while T’challa stands around like a pussy---cat…with his head up his you know what.


Nah…that is not compelling. It has nothing to do with him being perfect, or perfect stories…because that is not true. I have a huge Black Panther collection…that is the pride of all the comics I collect...screw his status by comic fan boys…I try to get every appearance there is of the dude…and T’challa as pointed out has NEVER been perfect…there have not been *many stories* that show him as perfect…no more then any other hero like Captain America or Thor who are both allowed to be heroic without question. The double standard has to stop.

It seems that Jason Aaron got it…and that’s why his recent run during SI is so highly regarded. T’challa was shown as a complete bad ass, and compelling at that…

Its not even that Doom is winning; or about who is smarter…it’s about the way its being done. I have zero issue with Doom winning…or T’challa being pushed to the limit LIKE WE HAVE SEEN COUNTLESS TIMES BEFORE…*it has happened before you know*…but here T'challa is acting like a coward. Doing nothing...being a “General”...when it has been shown that he can do both...why hold him back?... If T’challa was out there taking names and kicking ass…Doomwar would be looked at in a whole different manner... even with Doom winning. That’s the issue here.

I find it hard to imagine...Thor not doing what he did during Siege…I find it hard to believe that this *perfect* “NORSE god” would stand around as a general during Siege and it would be ok with his fans…or Steve Rogers standing around being a general during Siege, or Civil War for that matter…just imagine that. It would never happen. Even with Bucky as Captain America…Steve was out there taking heads…being perfect taking out the U-foes and Wrecking Crew…go figure.

Meanwhile, T’challa is being a General.

Please stop listing to haters Marvel. They are not even buying the book…and if you are trying to please them. Then I guess you are doing a great job.

Sorry for being really Blunt...but this is how I see it.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 09:51:40 am by Seven »

Offline Wakandan561

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Re: Doomwar: Return of Doormat Man (TM)....Perfect???
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2010, 01:03:27 pm »
Idk, I see it a little differently. I been a BP fan for awhile, and there were alot of times when I saw T'challa as perfect too. Because before The whole Doom thing in the BP Relaunch. When was the last time anybody really saw T'challa get his ASS KICKED!!!!! It's been a really long time. Real Talk, Until Maberry came along, I had never seen cracks in T'challas Personality, as much as I loved his chracter, he was very much unrelatable. Besides that, one of the things about T'challa is for the most part, he keeps his cool. When was the last time, we saw T'challa just go F*ckin beserk!  I Loved Hudlin's run on BP, mainly because at times it felt like a "Black Comic" you could see the difference in his writing style. T'challa and Storm were given alot more "Soul". I loved the portrayal and everything about T'challa and Wakanda.  But unfortuantely while it was appealing to some fans like me, it wasn't appealing to a large enough crowd to make him an A-list Chracter. This is why I think Bp fans more than any other people  who just read BP and Doomwar Impartially get pissed. Because Here with Hudlin we had T'challa running his Country, Married To Storm, Living this perfect life. Then Maberry comes in and  Shatters Wakanda, Kicks Storm To The Side (That I'm still mad about however), and has T'challa losing at every step to Doctor Doom.  , and sitting back while all these other chracters fight for HIS Country. But at the end of the day, I think this is what's going to sell better than and Evenly matched T'challa and Doom, and Then have T'challa pull a final trick of besting Doom in a similar way as secret invasion arc. While Hudlin was and is the writer we want for BP, Maberry is the writer needed.

Another issue that I know nobody wants to address and admit exists is the Fact that a Movie Helps comics BOTTOM LINE!!! Iron man couldn't even sustain a solo series for before his movie came out. Then all of a sudden The Movie comes out, and Stark is Head of S.H.I.E.L.D. and from that we got loads and loads of Iron Man. Red Hulk was orginally invented, to earn Hype with The Incredible HUlk Movie, now the hulk has Hulk, Incredible Hulk, World War Hulks. Then who can forget Deadpool, He was recieved so well in X-men Origins, that now you can't have a List of Marvel Solicitations without him on the cover of at least 5 of the titles.  Sure Blade,Punisher and Daredevil didn't get as much comic hype. But then The qualities of their movies sucked.

This is what makes BP such a complicated comic to sale, because how do you put him on Par with all of the different superheroes that have movies without him having one? It's not by having him best every enemy he faces, and It's not by allowing him to walk away from every battle with no lives lost. I agree it was stupid of Marvel to make Shuri the New Bp, but were stuck with it, so when Marvel gives you Lemons Make Lemonade. If she is going to sell in the Marvel U, she can be Panther Barbie any more, she has to  be  "Bout That" and she has to go through HELL and high water to prove that she is, if the Bp Series is ever to sustain, Wakanda has to get wrecked because it's happened to the best of the superheroes.
Iron Man ( Having to Reboot his Mind)
Hulk ( Not being able to transform)
Cap( Going through hell after being Shot)
Spider-Man( Losing his Job and His Marriage)
FF( One of them is about to die)
 I hate seeing a wrecked Wakanda. But if thats what it takes to see make the series sell and be interesting so be it. Yes the BP series is canceled, but we still have at least four months of BP Post-Doomwar, and Theirs no telling what will span from Shuri's miniseries.  But I think that Maberry saw that if BP was to go to the next level, the entire concept had to be destroyed and Re-Invented not to just appeal to "The Black Audience (Plus a few followers)" but to a larger Comic book audience. Yes it 's a risky move, but it's the right move, and he described the Ending of Doomwar being " A Real Bitch"
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Offline Seven

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Re: Doomwar: Return of Doormat Man (TM)....Perfect???
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2010, 01:08:06 pm »
Idk, I see it a little differently. I been a BP fan for awhile, and there were alot of times when I saw T'challa as perfect too. Because before The whole Doom thing in the BP Relaunch. When was the last time anybody really saw T'challa get his ASS KICKED!!!!! It's been a really long time. Real Talk, Until Maberry came along.

Really? So you never read Jungle Action. You never read any of Priest run. You didn't read Back to Africa when Killmonger once again kicked T'challa ass and he was saved by Monica R. You didn't read Worlds Apart where Shadow King took over his mind...? You did see when Doom had him by the neck and Storm saved him.

Come on...dude.

Hudlin is the ONLY run there T'challa flaws and getting has ass kicked all the time was not front and center


 
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 01:11:13 pm by Seven »

Offline Seven

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Re: Doomwar: Return of Doormat Man (TM)....Perfect???
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2010, 01:22:23 pm »
Real Talk, Until Maberry came along, I had never seen cracks in T'challas Personality, as much as I loved his chracter, he was very much unrelatable. Besides that, one of the things about T'challa is for the most part, he keeps his cool. When was the last time, we saw T'challa just go F*ckin beserk!

He not going "berserk" here either! He staying around giving orders. Shuri's going berserk...but T'challa is standing around being a *general*.  




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I Loved Hudlin's run on BP, mainly because at times it felt like a "Black Comic" you could see the difference in his writing style. T'challa and Storm were given alot more "Soul". I loved the portrayal and everything about T'challa and Wakanda.  But unfortuantely while it was appealing to some fans like me, it wasn't appealing to a large enough crowd to make him an A-list Chracter.


You think this is going to make him a A-list character?  ??? He doing nothing. I would agree if you were talking about Jason Aaron's See Wakanda and Die...a story that really got people who didn't read Black Panther to actually pick up the book. How many Black Panther stories are New York Times Best Sellers? Just imagine Steve Rogers or Thor doing what T'challa is doing now in Siege. You bet there fans would accept that at all.

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This is why I think Bp fans more than any other people  who just read BP and Doomwar Impartially get pissed. Because Here with Hudlin we had T'challa running his Country, Married To Storm, Living this perfect life.

Nope not at all. I'm personally sick of reading about dragging this character through hell. How many characters get have had there ass kicked by kids...in there own book? Please name one.

 
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Then Maberry comes in and  Shatters Wakanda, Kicks Storm To The Side (That I'm still mad about however), and has T'challa losing at every step to Doctor Doom.  , and sitting back while all these other chracters fight for HIS Country. But at the end of the day, I think this is what's going to sell better than and Evenly matched T'challa and Doom, and Then have T'challa pull a final trick of besting Doom in a similar way as secret invasion arc. While Hudlin was and is the writer we want for BP, Maberry is the writer needed.


Really. Sales are dropping.
2/10 Doomwar # 1 - 43,241  
3/10 Doomwar # 2 - 30,555  
4/10 Doomwar # 3 - 27,859


Quote
Another issue that I know nobody wants to address and admit exists is the Fact that a Movie Helps comics BOTTOM LINE!!! Iron man couldn't even sustain a solo series for before his movie came out. Then all of a sudden The Movie comes out, and Stark is Head of S.H.I.E.L.D. and from that we got loads and loads of Iron Man. Red Hulk was orginally invented, to earn Hype with The Incredible HUlk Movie, now the hulk has Hulk, Incredible Hulk, World War Hulks. Then who can forget Deadpool, He was recieved so well in X-men Origins, that now you can't have a List of Marvel Solicitations without him on the cover of at least 5 of the titles.  Sure Blade,Punisher and Daredevil didn't get as much comic hype. But then The qualities of their movies sucked.


I don't disagree. He going to be on the Avenger's Toon.

Quote
This is what makes BP such a complicated comic to sale, because how do you put him on Par with all of the different superheroes that have movies without him having one? It's not by having him best every enemy he faces, and It's not by allowing him to walk away from every battle with no lives lost. I agree it was stupid of Marvel to make Shuri the New Bp, but were stuck with it, so when Marvel gives you Lemons Make Lemonade. If she is going to sell in the Marvel U, she can be Panther Barbie any more, she has to  be  "Bout That" and she has to go through HELL and high water to prove that she is, if the Bp Series is ever to sustain, Wakanda has to get wrecked because it's happened to the best of the superheroes.

Thor didn't have a movie. To me that is a excuse.


Quote
Iron Man ( Having to Reboot his Mind)
Hulk ( Not being able to transform)
Cap( Going through hell after being Shot)
Spider-Man( Losing his Job and His Marriage)
FF( One of them is about to die)


Really. Come on man...T'challa has been through a lot more then that. He is not on the level those characters with countless book, volumes and stories. It's not even the same.
 
Quote
I hate seeing a wrecked Wakanda. But if thats what it takes to see make the series sell and be interesting so be it. Yes the BP series is canceled, but we still have at least four months of BP Post-Doomwar, and Theirs no telling what will span from Shuri's miniseries.  But I think that Maberry saw that if BP was to go to the next level, the entire concept had to be destroyed and Re-Invented not to just appeal to "The Black Audience (Plus a few followers)" but to a larger Comic book audience. Yes it 's a risky move, but it's the right move, and he described the Ending of Doomwar being " A Real Bitch"


I has nothing to do with wrecking Wakanda. I don't care that Doom is winning...That's fine...but don't have T'challa standing around with his head up his ass. That all i'm saying. No one wants to read that. Shuri is running around taking heads...when that should be what T'challa is doing. It makes him look weak.

If you ask the average comic fan what is the better story...i bet they will say that the would want ot see "See Wakanda and Die" like stories...like other heroes get..instead of Stand-around Man.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 01:25:38 pm by Seven »

Offline Wakandan561

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Re: Doomwar: Return of Doormat Man (TM)....Perfect???
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2010, 01:26:37 pm »

Really? So you never read Jungle Action. You never read any of Priest run. You didn't read Back to Africa when Killmonger once again kicked T'challa ass and he was saved by Monica R. You didn't read Worlds Apart where Shadow King took over his mind...? You did see when Doom had him by the neck and Storm saved him.

Come on...dude.

Hudlin is the ONLY run there T'challa flaws and getting has ass kicked all the time was not front and center


 

[/quote]

Yes I have bra,  When T'challa fought Killmonger, he was losing that badly, it's not like He was beaten down bloodied up, like the cover depicted. In the end I think T'challa would have pulled off victory in that battle regardless of whether Monica Showed up. Yes T'challa was taken over by the Shadow King, but in fairness, Huldin wasn't writing that, and The Mini Series was about Storm. Even with the Doom thing, I think when Maberry said perfect, he meant that "Nothing Bad Ever really truly Happens to T'challa" and thats kinda boring, It wasn't until Deadliest of The Species that things started changing and I stopped seeing BP as Unbeatble.
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Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Doomwar: Return of Doormat Man (TM)....Perfect???
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2010, 01:30:45 pm »
To be fair, its been a while since the MacGregor stuff came out.

561 might only be familar with the more recent Priest stuff and Reg's stuff.

That why i'm looking forward to the Marvel Masterwork (though my wallet will scream) edition. That stuff hasn't been seen in ages.

Panther's Quest was never collected in trade, either as far as I know.

Offline Seven

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Re: Doomwar: Return of Doormat Man (TM)....Perfect???
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2010, 01:36:40 pm »
It doesn't matter who is writing it... it happened. Marvel is a shared universe. To act like T’challa is some how perfect is absurd, because the facts do not support it. He has only bested Killmonger once. Only once…in the old Ironman Annual…during Hudlin’s so-called perfect run…he was losing and was saved. There was no indication that he was going to win.

He was choked out by Sabertooth in Wolverine. Logan saved him. That happened in a bigger book, with FAR MORE READERS then Black Panther. T’challa getting choked and save by another hero. His occurred during Hudlin’s run.

He was choked out by Doom. During Civil War….and right after the marriage.  Again...to say that nothing bad ever happens to T'challa IS FALSE. Or maybe we are not reading the same books.

It not about nothing bad happing to him.

You used Steve Rogers...notice the difference? come one man...you say Steve kick ass during Seige...he wasn't standing around getting owned left and right and doing nothing.





Offline Seven

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Re: Doomwar: Return of Doormat Man (TM)....Perfect???
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2010, 01:39:09 pm »
To be fair, its been a while since the MacGregor stuff came out.

561 might only be familar with the more recent Priest stuff and Reg's stuff.

That why i'm looking forward to the Marvel Masterwork (though my wallet will scream) edition. That stuff hasn't been seen in ages.

Panther's Quest was never collected in trade, either as far as I know.

That's fair...too.

But still...even if you ignore those things. You can say nothing bad as happend...or that he has not be beaten.

Another example. Fall of the Hulks. T'challa was in that...was he perfect? No...

These are all recent.

Worlds Apart
Fall of Hulks
Back to Africa (before See Wakanda and Die).
The Deadlest of S.


Offline Seven

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Re: Doomwar: Return of Doormat Man (TM)....Perfect???
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2010, 01:41:48 pm »
This is the point. I don't see anyone sticking around for Black Panther because of Doomwar. If you want new readers this is not how you get them.

Doom fans are loving this...they are buying...and when it's over...they will leave.

Now See Wakanda and Die was different. It actually made people who didn't read or even know or like the character want to check him out.

Offline Wakandan561

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Re: Doomwar: Return of Doormat Man (TM)....Perfect???
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2010, 01:42:36 pm »


He not going "berserk" here either! He staying around giving orders. Shuri's going berserk...but T'challa is standing around being a *general*.  

Yeah But In Doomwar # 4 you really see his Weakness come about Always planning come into play. Thats as close to losing it as I've seen T'challa in awhile.  




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You think this is going to make him a A-list character?  ??? He doing nothing. I would agree if you were talking about Jason Aaron's See Wakanda and Die...a story that really got people who didn't read Black Panther to actually pick up the book. How many Black Panther stories are New York Times Best Sellers? Just imagine Steve Rogers or Thor doing what T'challa is doing now in Siege. You bet there fans would accept that at all.

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This is why I think Bp fans more than any other people  who just read BP and Doomwar Impartially get pissed. Because Here with Hudlin we had T'challa running his Country, Married To Storm, Living this perfect life.

Nope not at all. I'm personally sick of reading about dragging this character through hell. How many characters get have had there ass kicked by kids...in there own book? Please name one.

 
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Then Maberry comes in and  Shatters Wakanda, Kicks Storm To The Side (That I'm still mad about however), and has T'challa losing at every step to Doctor Doom.  , and sitting back while all these other chracters fight for HIS Country. But at the end of the day, I think this is what's going to sell better than and Evenly matched T'challa and Doom, and Then have T'challa pull a final trick of besting Doom in a similar way as secret invasion arc. While Hudlin was and is the writer we want for BP, Maberry is the writer needed.


Really. Sales are dropping.
2/10 Doomwar # 1 - 43,241  
3/10 Doomwar # 2 - 30,555  
4/10 Doomwar # 3 - 27,859

Yea But I bet They rose with Doomwar # 4 , and Continue to rise with Doomwar # 5 and # 6

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Another issue that I know nobody wants to address and admit exists is the Fact that a Movie Helps comics BOTTOM LINE!!! Iron man couldn't even sustain a solo series for before his movie came out. Then all of a sudden The Movie comes out, and Stark is Head of S.H.I.E.L.D. and from that we got loads and loads of Iron Man. Red Hulk was orginally invented, to earn Hype with The Incredible HUlk Movie, now the hulk has Hulk, Incredible Hulk, World War Hulks. Then who can forget Deadpool, He was recieved so well in X-men Origins, that now you can't have a List of Marvel Solicitations without him on the cover of at least 5 of the titles.  Sure Blade,Punisher and Daredevil didn't get as much comic hype. But then The qualities of their movies sucked.


[/quote]

Thor didn't have a movie. To me that is a excuse.

Yeah But watch how many more appearances Thor Gets in Comics once His Movie  drops, plus Thor Has been appearing in various different Cartoons.

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Iron Man ( Having to Reboot his Mind)
Hulk ( Not being able to transform)
Cap( Going through hell after being Shot)
Spider-Man( Losing his Job and His Marriage)
FF( One of them is about to die)


Really. Come on man...T'challa has been through a lot more then that. He is not on the level those characters with countless book, volumes and stories. It's not even the same.
 
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Yes but T'challa hasn't truely lost it all until now, Yes his countrys been taken over and he suffered from a brain anuerysm. But before the Last Arc of the Hudlin Run, when was the last time that he really had something so bad that it changed the Nature of the entire book.  

If you ask the average comic fan what is the better story...i bet they will say that the would want ot see "See Wakanda and Die" like stories...like other heroes get..instead of Stand-around Man.

You still not considering Story canon  issues, if T'challa isn't going to lead then who would?  It's already been stated that Doomwar is not A BP book so T'challa has to share the spotlight, his time comes in Doomwar # 6, but right Now Shuri is BP so naturally she's getting more action play.
The Absence of Evidence is not The Evidence of Absence

Offline Seven

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Re: Doomwar: Return of Doormat Man (TM)....Perfect???
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2010, 01:50:25 pm »
This is not what was said in the begining. Doomwar was suppose to bring new readers to the title. Doomwar also has the little "Panther" head for page numbers. It not even about sharing the spot light. T'challa was the one that was almost killed, dora's killed...lost his rulership.etc.... Can you imagine Wolverine doing what he is doing now? Dude can lead and also be in the field.

Look at Thor...and Siege...he was losing everything...and guess what...he is the one that took out Void and he was sharing spot light. He was out there in the mix fighting...Just think how Thor fans would have looked at Siege if he was playing General...or if Steve Rogers the most perfect man in comics (with Superman)...was doing that.

Doomwar is better then Siege to me...but T'challa isn't going to make any new reader want to pick up Black Panther...and Shuri is seeming more forced then ever...no way she should be more upset then him...she out there acting as if all the things that happend to T'challa...happend to her.  
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 02:09:21 pm by Seven »

Offline Seven

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Re: Doomwar: Return of Doormat Man (TM)....Perfect???
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2010, 02:22:54 pm »
Like I said in another thread...or what Princesa said also...there are other ways to show that T'challa is flawed and not perfect...and also make It be a compelling portrayal that makes new readers want to know more about T'challa.

Some people differ here. Most T'challa fans that I know are not not fond of this portrayal and the continued flogging the character has taken since September 2008, which includes Worlds Apart, Black Panther, Doomwar, Fall of Hulks, etc... Having him return to his Jungle Action/Roy Thomas Avenger... status does not mean he flawed.

Flaws can be shown in the characterization of the character.

He’s mysterious, and menacing. He brutal and can be violent... No one should know what he is thinking. Maybe Storm...or Queen Mother...but no one else should be able to read his feelings. Doesn't mean he will not crack...like he as before (example fight with Kraven jr.).  He menacing in that characters should be weary of him...including friends...spying on the Avengers and taking there weakness down. Setting the Fantastic Four up...etc..

He's aloof, cold and detached (except with Storm and Queen mother). He is very cocky and arrogant like Namor, but without the crazy temper. His friends don't really trust him...they know what he is about and he could be studying them to take them down... He has daddy issues, after since his father killed in cold blood, murder before his eyes. He does not feel like he is the real king…just holding his father place on the throne. In his mind he will never live up to the person Wakandan’s called “the Great King”. The only mother he knew was enslaved for 10 years…10 years where he did not see the person he knew as mother…

I can go on and on…you don’t have to chump him out to show his flaws.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 02:38:56 pm by Seven »

Offline Princesa

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Re: Doomwar: Return of Doormat Man (TM)....Perfect???
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2010, 06:18:34 pm »
I agree with Seven and I believe the problem is some people/writers see T'Challa as the comic book version of Sidney Poitier in the 60's movies. He is just nothing but noble and good. Boring as hell. I liked RH's BP better overall but  Priest's BP was much more nuanced. That guy crashed Tony Starks heart and the world economy. He spied on the Avengers. When a throng of african americans were gathered to see him he essentially told Captain America you deal with them , they're americans, they're your people. That guy Storm warned might be on the way to being Magneto. That guy you had to keep one eye on at all times to the point the Illuminati went to him to ask if he'd join.  He is brilliantly flawed. Aaron you could tell 'got' the Panther in his comments. He is not a super hero or a skull cracker. He is not downhome good peoples. I think he would be best served by a semi-heel turn. Not so much a villain but a wildcard.

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Doomwar: Return of Doormat Man (TM)....Perfect???
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2010, 06:41:16 pm »
<<He is just nothing but noble and good. Boring as hell.>>

Are you kidding?  Three of the most popular heroes in America, who have lasted 70 years worth of stories are defined by Nobility--Cap, Superman and Wonder Woman.  Nobility is one of the first characteristics I would attribute to Thor.  Noble isn't boring; it's just the execution that determines if its boring or not.

Offline Princesa

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Re: Doomwar: Return of Doormat Man (TM)....Perfect???
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2010, 06:56:47 pm »
<<He is just nothing but noble and good. Boring as hell.>>

Are you kidding?  Three of the most popular heroes in America, who have lasted 70 years worth of stories are defined by Nobility--Cap, Superman and Wonder Woman.  Nobility is one of the first characteristics I would attribute to Thor.  Noble isn't boring; it's just the execution that determines if its boring or not.


I said T'Challa's depiction was boring as hell. And it is. It's Poitier-ish. Those characters have a hell of a lot more development. Cap I love. Superman I despise. WW depends on the writer with me. Now when the black comic buying audience increases ten fold maybe a boring character can make it.