Author Topic: Creative or Cheating?  (Read 10072 times)

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Creative or Cheating?
« on: June 12, 2010, 08:44:11 am »
I was reading on CBR about the new Aqualad coming to both cartoons and comics.

Some of the comments I chuckled at--this is DC, they'll blow it somehow and he'll either end uo dead or maimed.

But one comment spurred my mind and wanted to start a discussion here--is turning a white hero into a minority hero creative or cheating?

Personally, I like when they go the route of Blue Beetle.  They made him part of the Legacy, but made him completely his own man.  Or like they did with Monica/Captain Marvel.  Same with Mr. Terrific.

Now, John Stewart works even thought his powers and costume are cloned from Hal, because its a corp.  So duplicates are expected. 

But are the small cosmetic differences in Atom, War Machine, (female) Wildcat; are they enough?

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Creative or Cheating?
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2010, 07:01:36 am »
Thing is D.C. has the replacement hero concept built in to its Universe. The only way Robin ever made sense to me as a little kid was that when he grew up he'd be Batman and have his own Robin. He was an understudy. Same with Kid Flash except he actually got to be Flash in the 80's.

The Justice Society has always had several heroes who passed down thier costumed identity to thier kids: Black Canary, Starman, Hourman, and Jessie Quick.

There is also the Homage hero: an admirer of a hero takes on his identity after he retires or is killed like Ted Kord's Blue Beetle who took on the I.D. of his dead friend and mentor the Original Blue Beetle.

It makes thematic sense in the DC universe.

It would only stand to reason that some of these imitators and/or proteges might not be white. What makes this an issue at all is D.C. need to appease its 35+ fanbase who want the heroes THEY grew up with. Hang introducing a new era of heroes to an new generation of reader. D.C. doesn't know how to get new readers save by accident.

Nobody expects a new Batman, Superman or Wonder Woman but everybody else's persona should be up for grabs.

But here's the other thing except for Cyborg, Vixen and Black Lightning, what other all original minority characters did D.C. create and promote?Steel's a Superman imitator, Celsius (Female East Indian) was killed off Tempest (Male A-A) retired. They also killed off Alex Simmons' Orpheus. Even out of the three characters I just named only Black Lighning ever had his own ongoing series. Steel had an ongoing too but he's a legacy like Kid Flash in a way.

What really sad about all this is that the new Aqualad was probably crated for the cartoon because when the producers looked for a minority legacy character to put in the Teen Titans they COULDN'T FIND ONE. So they made one. Or they told D.C. to make one. The only reason the New Aqualad exists is because D.C. is awful with character race issues.

On the other hand Marvel is awful with gender issues, which D.C. has always done wel,l with so D.C. has that in its favor.   

 

Offline Hypestyle

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Re: Creative or Cheating?
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2010, 12:06:29 pm »
I hope that more is done with DC's minority heroes-- minis, ongoings..
i guess we'll see what the new Aqualad's origin is..
I appreciate the new Milestone TPB's that DC has apparently released, but, well, aside from Static in the Teen Titans, I don't see what else the new deal with Milestone has brought.. Mr. McDuffie gets let go from Justice League and that's it.. we see almost no more Dakota heroes-- I want to see more Icon, Hardware, Blood Syndicate, etc. all over the place.. Wise Son goes to Gotham, Hardware teams up with Steel, that kind of thing..
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Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Creative or Cheating?
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2010, 01:48:57 pm »
Man, if I was kid and the only bone I was thrown for representation was friggin' AQUALAD, I'd be pissed.  Thanks, but no thanks.

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Creative or Cheating?
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2010, 12:58:07 pm »
Man, if I was kid and the only bone I was thrown for representation was friggin' AQUALAD, I'd be pissed.  Thanks, but no thanks.

There was a Chinese Batgirl for a little while. 

Cassandra Cain. But she never got on television since the pop culture version of Batgirl is still Barbara Gordon.

So D.C. replaced Cassandra Cain with a blonde Batgirl (that looks very much like the one in the Shumacher movie). What is funny about this (to me)is that the fanboys who usually brush this kind of thing off were outraged this time.

But then the only kind of diversity comics fans are down with is the kind involving hot Asian chicks. 

I don't know if any asian fans had any feeling for CC at all.

Offline JLI Jesse

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Re: Creative or Cheating?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2010, 01:09:16 pm »
Man, if I was kid and the only bone I was thrown for representation was friggin' AQUALAD, I'd be pissed.  Thanks, but no thanks.

There was a Chinese Batgirl for a little while. 

Cassandra Cain. But she never got on television since the pop culture version of Batgirl is still Barbara Gordon.

So D.C. replaced Cassandra Cain with a blonde Batgirl (that looks very much like the one in the Shumacher movie). What is funny about this (to me)is that the fanboys who usually brush this kind of thing off were outraged this time.

But then the only kind of diversity comics fans are down with is the kind involving hot Asian chicks. 

I don't know if any asian fans had any feeling for CC at all.

I think that case is slightly different in that Stephanie Brown has been around about 18 years before she became Batgirl, so she wasn't created out of thin air and becoming Batgirl made some kind of sense.

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Creative or Cheating?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2010, 02:54:54 pm »
Man, if I was kid and the only bone I was thrown for representation was friggin' AQUALAD, I'd be pissed.  Thanks, but no thanks.

There was a Chinese Batgirl for a little while. 

Cassandra Cain. But she never got on television since the pop culture version of Batgirl is still Barbara Gordon.

So D.C. replaced Cassandra Cain with a blonde Batgirl (that looks very much like the one in the Shumacher movie). What is funny about this (to me)is that the fanboys who usually brush this kind of thing off were outraged this time.

But then the only kind of diversity comics fans are down with is the kind involving hot Asian chicks. 

I don't know if any asian fans had any feeling for CC at all.

I think that case is slightly different in that Stephanie Brown has been around about 18 years before she became Batgirl, so she wasn't created out of thin air and becoming Batgirl made some kind of sense.

True, but Cassandra Cain fans were screaming bloody murder anyway. But for Stephanie Brown being Batgirl is really a consolation since she got jerked out of being Robin. A shame too because if she was Robin not you have a situation where a Robin (Stephanie Brown) would be crushing on a Batman (Dick Grayson).

But maybe D.C. does want to mess with that(even though Stephanie Brown's legal at this point) and I don't blame them. ;D

Offline KIP LEWIS

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Re: Creative or Cheating?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2010, 07:25:45 am »
What really sad about all this is that the new Aqualad was probably crated for the cartoon because when the producers looked for a minority legacy character to put in the Teen Titans they COULDN'T FIND ONE. So they made one. Or they told D.C. to make one. The only reason the New Aqualad exists is because D.C. is awful with character race issues.

They should have went to the JSA find in a minority legacy hero.  JJ (or whatever they call him) is a Black teen.  (Is Wildcat's son half-Hispanic?)  They could have created a teenage Amazing Man.  (Is Amazing Man the first Black Man to have a Black legacy hero after him?)

Or they could have just used the new Atom...oh, yeah.  That might have been embarrasing.

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Creative or Cheating?
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2010, 07:49:36 am »
What really sad about all this is that the new Aqualad was probably crated for the cartoon because when the producers looked for a minority legacy character to put in the Teen Titans they COULDN'T FIND ONE. So they made one. Or they told D.C. to make one. The only reason the New Aqualad exists is because D.C. is awful with character race issues.

They should have went to the JSA find in a minority legacy hero.  JJ (or whatever they call him) is a Black teen.  (Is Wildcat's son half-Hispanic?)  They could have created a teenage Amazing Man.  (Is Amazing Man the first Black Man to have a Black legacy hero after him?)

Or they could have just used the new Atom...oh, yeah.  That might have been embarrasing.

I guess they were limited to characters in the current Teen Titans franchise otherwise they'd of just used Cyborg again.

There already is a Hispanic Aquagirl and they didn't use her, so I'm guessing they were looking for a male minority figure.

Offline Open palm

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Re: Creative or Cheating?
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2010, 07:09:07 pm »
Okay, on the issue of Cassandra Cain, I hated that concept. When she was introduced she didn't speak. She was abused into becoming a kung-fu assassin. Then the white Bat family gives her a better direction with a stitched up costume. As an Asian I was offended that DC approached the character that way.  >:( I have no problems with Westerners adopting Chinese orphans. But a white assassin imposing a cliche on an Asian girl is no better than footbinding.

If I want something better I can find it in Lady Snowblood or Princess Blade.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 09:03:57 pm by Open palm »
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Offline Blanks

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Re: Creative or Cheating?
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2010, 01:03:52 pm »
Granted that I cannot even remember the last time that DC or Marvel even attempted to create a 'new' character, I'm all for the replacement angle, especially if it is for characters that need a revamp because they have been in character limbo for ages.

Marvel is better at taking risks when it comes to creating 'new' characters, but 80 percent of the time, these 'new' characters are always white, instead of casting the role to a minority. Is there any reason why the new character Gravity (and I realize that by new, he is at least three years old) was white and not any other race? As much as I would love to see new black characters grace the pages, I would love to see new Asian or Hispanic, or for an even less represented race, the American Indian?

I cannot remember the last time DC tried to create a new character, much less a new minority character. If this Aqualad hangs around for years to come, I want to see him woven into the Aquaman myths so well that when its time for Arther to step down, the new kid can rise to the occasion like Dick has for Bruce.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 01:05:35 pm by BLANKS!!! »

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Creative or Cheating?
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2010, 01:29:42 pm »
Granted that I cannot even remember the last time that DC or Marvel even attempted to create a 'new' character, I'm all for the replacement angle, especially if it is for characters that need a revamp because they have been in character limbo for ages.

Marvel is better at taking risks when it comes to creating 'new' characters, but 80 percent of the time, these 'new' characters are always white, instead of casting the role to a minority. Is there any reason why the new character Gravity (and I realize that by new, he is at least three years old) was white and not any other race? As much as I would love to see new black characters grace the pages, I would love to see new Asian or Hispanic, or for an even less represented race, the American Indian?

I cannot remember the last time DC tried to create a new character, much less a new minority character. If this Aqualad hangs around for years to come, I want to see him woven into the Aquaman myths so well that when its time for Arther to step down, the new kid can rise to the occasion like Dick has for Bruce.

Say what you want about the 90's, but it was just about the last time D.C. or Marvel busted out a whole bunch of new characters/teams at once. At D.C., some of them got thier own comics like The Ray, Damage, Gunman, Anima, Major Bummer or Young Heroes (in Love) Sovereign Seven and The Ravers. Only one solo character as far as I know was a minority Chris Priest's Xero(A black guy who disguised hmself as a white guy superhero). Soveriegn Seven had a Black female as its leader. The Ravers had a Gay Latino member, Hero Cruz.

The only characters that got any play in the DCU in the long run were the legacies, Ray and Damage.

And even that didn't work out for them too well. Ray's in limbo now and Damage's dead.

It's nigh impossible to break new comics characters without editorial willfully shoving them down the readers throats. Buskiek couldn't do it with Power Company and Marc Andreko couldn't do it with Manhunter either and they had cred and critical acclaim on thier sides.

Offline 4sake

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Re: Creative or Cheating?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2010, 03:55:44 pm »
Granted that I cannot even remember the last time that DC or Marvel even attempted to create a 'new' character, I'm all for the replacement angle, especially if it is for characters that need a revamp because they have been in character limbo for ages.

Marvel is better at taking risks when it comes to creating 'new' characters, but 80 percent of the time, these 'new' characters are always white, instead of casting the role to a minority. Is there any reason why the new character Gravity (and I realize that by new, he is at least three years old) was white and not any other race? As much as I would love to see new black characters grace the pages, I would love to see new Asian or Hispanic, or for an even less represented race, the American Indian?

I cannot remember the last time DC tried to create a new character, much less a new minority character. If this Aqualad hangs around for years to come, I want to see him woven into the Aquaman myths so well that when its time for Arther to step down, the new kid can rise to the occasion like Dick has for Bruce.

Good point.. I've wonder the same thing..
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Offline Blanks

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Re: Creative or Cheating?
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2010, 08:18:44 pm »
There are ton of replacement characters that could have been anything other than default white guy. Just the other day, I was having a conversation with a colleague of mine of the game Mass Effect and how awesome it is to customize the character to your manner of choice. But... how come default Shepard (the main character of the game) was white? Wouldn't it have been easier to simply portray the character with a helmet in all the ads to portray a sense of no race, if one of the whole big parts of the game is to customize and decision making?

Just seems that default automatically means White. Great oogly-boogly.

So... creative or cheating? Dunno, but for a lot of creative types that stick with 'default', I'd have to say lazy.

Offline JLI Jesse

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Re: Creative or Cheating?
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2010, 12:12:41 pm »
If this Aqualad hangs around for years to come, I want to see him woven into the Aquaman myths so well that when its time for Arther to step down, the new kid can rise to the occasion like Dick has for Bruce.

The kid is in trouble when they eventually wanna bring back Garth (who I actually like).  Sure, he hasn't been Aqualad for a while but he'll eventually find his way back and "go back to basics."  When that happens, this new character will go the way of Ryan Choi.

Blue Beetle prob has the best chance of sticking around because even if Ted Kord comes back, they are different enough to not be redundant.