From White to Black: The Changing Faces of Superheroes.

[KIP LEWIS]

Does anyone have scans of Bast when he/she appeared in Thor?  (Apparently, Bast has both male n female aspects.)

[sinjection1]

Does anyone have scans of Bast when he/she appeared in Thor?  (Apparently, Bast has both male n female aspects.)

Does anyone remember how Bast appeared in the Black Panther mini series written by Peter Gillis and illustrated by Flags Of Our Fathers Denys Cowan? Bast wasn't white in that appearance. "It" was black if anything else.

[phara]

Finally! So there is at least one Wakandan warrior. A panther amongst the black sheep.
    Ture respect. You argue your  points with intelligence and passion.  You don’t hide behind petty name calling ( troll, how droll),  a  false bravado or an empty sense of superiority.  You confronted  the issue head  on.  T’challa would be proud.
   However I must again disagree with you.  You give Priest and Huddlin far to much credit. To give  them “New God”  status is unjustifiable.  I will say it again “GODS CREATE UNIVERSES.” Neither Priest nor Reg have the intelligence or the vision to be compared to Kirby or Lee. If they did we would be reading their comics from their company. Their “contributions”  to the panther lore and the Marvel Universe mark them more as priest ( no pun intended) then “New Gods”. 
   As for your “plausible explanation“. By definition plausible does not equal true and you failed to connect the dots.  The black panther is and always will be the creation of Lee, Kirby and no one else no matter how you try to rewrite the history.
   It’s been fun. I am glad  to see our little debate has  seemed to elevated your status amongst your fellow “Wakandans” , but I would warn “ beware the praise of  fools”

Till I return Phara

[Vic Vega]

If you wanted to be factually accurate Jack Kirby created the Black Panther.

Kirby provided the art and stories for all his 60's Marvel stuff. Stan Lee just added scripted dialogue and captions to Jack's stuff back then.  

Stan's only genius was in being Marvel's hype man.  

As for the Black Panther itself the property bears a extreme similarity to Lion Man who appeared in All Negro Comics an all African American created comic book published in 1947.

Lion Man is :

a young scientist, sent by the United Nations to watch over the fearsome ‘MAGIC MOUNTAIN’ of the African Gold Coast. Within its crater lies the world’s largest deposit of URANIUM – ENOUGH TO MAKE AN ATOM BOMB THAT COULD DESTROY THE WORLD. Lion Man’s job is to report on the doings of any treacherous nation that might seek to carry away any of the lethal stuff for the purpose of war.

http://www.oddballcomics.com/article.php?story=2007-02-26

So a scientific adventurer. Who lives in Africa. With a Cat name. Whose mission is guarding a "mystic" mountain filled with a rare element from evildoers.  

All Negro's Lion Man has the same premise as Marvel's Black Panther.

So yeah, Kirby created the Black Panther....

but he got the idea for the character from a Black guy.


  

[KIP LEWIS]

Vic where did you hear that from?

[Vic Vega]

Vic where did you hear that from?

What, B.P. being more of a Kriby's thing than a Lee thing? That I got from interviews I've read with Jack.

As for the Lion Man stuff, I provided a link above. The similarities are kinda blatant.

These kinds of /inspration/homages happened all the time back in the 60's (and the 40's for that matter). For example, there was a Daredevil before Marvel's version. Stan just filched the name and Dr. Midnight's gimmick.

[sinjection1]

If you wanted to be factually accurate Jack Kirby created the Black Panther.

Kirby provided the art and stories for all his 60's Marvel stuff. Stan Lee just added scripted dialogue and captions to Jack's stuff back then.  

Stan's only genius was in being Marvel's hype man.  

As for the Black Panther itself the property bears a extreme similarity to Lion Man who appeared in All Negro Comics an all African American created comic book published in 1947.

Lion Man is :

a young scientist, sent by the United Nations to watch over the fearsome ‘MAGIC MOUNTAIN’ of the African Gold Coast. Within its crater lies the world’s largest deposit of URANIUM – ENOUGH TO MAKE AN ATOM BOMB THAT COULD DESTROY THE WORLD. Lion Man’s job is to report on the doings of any treacherous nation that might seek to carry away any of the lethal stuff for the purpose of war.

http://www.oddballcomics.com/article.php?story=2007-02-26

So a scientific adventurer. Who lives in Africa. With a Cat name. Whose mission is guarding a "mystic" mountain filled with a rare element from evildoers.  

All Negro's Lion Man has the same premise as Marvel's Black Panther.

So yeah, Kirby created the Black Panther....

but he got the idea for the character from a Black guy.

Excellent find, Vic.

So not only does it appear that Stan Lee may have "borrowed", "lifted", "appropriated" the Black Panther name from the Lowndes County, GA Black Panther Party and their logo AND possibly, an all-black WWII Tank Batallion known as the Black Panthers:

Concept and creation

[edit] Name
The Black Panther's name predates the October 1966 founding of the Black Panther Party, though not the black panther logo of the party's predecessor, the Lowndes County Freedom Organization, nor the segregated World War II Black Panthers Tank Battalion.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_(comics)

Stan may have borrowed heavily from a character created by Black comics creators as well. There are no tigers in Africa so having an African Prince with the name "Coal Tiger" or "Black Tiger" didn't really make much sense. Lions do exist in Africa as does the fearsome leopard, the melanistic leopard also known as the black panther. At the time Lee and Kirby were fleshing out their companies' first black superhero, the Lowndes County Freedom Organization a.k.a. the Black Panther Party AND their logo DID exist as did the powerful Civil Rights Movement of Black Americans.

It's very hard to believe that Lee and Kirby just happened to come upon the name and appearance of T'Challa, the Black Panther without being influenced by the excitement and racial pride generated by Black Americans, a large portion of that excitement under the banner of the black panther, a symbol black Americans have associated with black power and black pride since long before Stan Lee created his Black Panther if the Black Panther Tank Batallion of WWII is any indication. Stan Lee HAD to have been aware of this Black Panther-related energy in Black American youth. The Black Panther comicbook character was designed to tap into that youthful exhuberance in hopes "his creation" would attract that young black American audience and translate into sales of his product. It's ludicrous to claim that Stan Lee created the Black Panther without being aware of the existence of the Black Panther Party and the connection black Americans had to the black panther symbolism.

Long ago, a white musician named Dominic LaRocca claimed that he and other whites were solely responsible for creating Jazz music a.k.a. America's Original Artform, the very same music genre that along with Blues music (also created by Black musicians), created a universe of music genres to follow, most notably Rock and Roll music. The entire world knew LaRocca was nuts to make such a claim in the face of the overwhelming evidence of who truly created Jazz running contrary to his insane pronouncements. Gods create universes? The Black American musician must surely be the gods who gave rise to genres of popular music which have taken the entire world by storm and is heavily imitated and emulated by their "white worshippers".

Unlike Dominic LaRocca, Stan Lee never said that black Americans had no influence whatsoever in his creation of the Black Panther, but he never said they did either and that fact I find unconscionable.

[Vic Vega]

It's very hard to believe that Lee and Kirby just happened to come upon the name and appearance of T'Challa, the Black Panther without being influenced by the excitement and racial pride generated by Black Americans, a large portion of that excitement under the banner of the black panther, a symbol black Americans have associated with black power and black pride since long before Stan Lee created his Black Panther if the Black Panther Tank Batallion of WWII is any indication. Stan Lee HAD to have been aware of this Black Panther-related energy in Black American youth. The Black Panther comicbook character was designed to tap into that youthful exhuberance in hopes "his creation" would attract that young black American audience and translate into sales of his product. It's ludicrous to claim that Stan Lee created the Black Panther without being aware of the existence of the Black Panther Party and the connection black Americans had to the black panther symbolism.

.....HAD to have?

If you took Jack Kirby at his word (and his version of events seems more credible than Stan's) Stan Lee just filled in word baloons with verbiage.

Since 1966 is a long ways from 1947, I'll assume that Kirby might have recollected Lion Man's premise and adapted it. He could have come by it independently too (but it'd be one heck of a coincidence).  Outside of providing dialogue, I doubt that Stan Lee had much to do with the creation of Black Panther.

[KIP LEWIS]

It is very possible that Kirby got the idea from Lion Man (if we can
accept the premise that he would have even read the comic.), but it's
also possible that he got the idea from elsewhere.  The article mentions
called Lion Man Tarzan like and as for the similarities, there are also
a lot of similarities between BP and the Phantom.  Originally, the
Phantom's costume was grey, not purple.  He was associated with a
"hidden people" and then the most important similarity--the costume and
the name was handed down, father to son. Even the first BP borrows from the Phantom's villains, the Singh Brotherhood.  Klaw was for all intents and purposes, a pirate, landbound, but still a pirate. 

So did Kirby borrow from the Phantom
or was it just coincidence.

Still it's possible, he borrowed ideas from multiple characters, Lion Man, Tarzan, Phantom, etc..

As far as the name goes, I have more trouble believing he got the name
from the Black Panther organization and/or it's predecessor.  One, it is
believed that Marvel, maybe even Stan, changed Kirby's mask to cover up
all the Black skin because of how it might effect sales in the South.
Do we really think they'd risk Southern stores refusing to sell a title
that plays homage to the Black Panther organization?  Especially when
they shortly thereafter dropped the word "Black" from his name to avoid
any confusion.  Two, not only would they have to get stores to sell the
book, but they would also have to get the Comic Code Authority to
approve the book.  Given their stance at the time, it's not very likely.
And third, the name is a very logical name for a Black hero, if you are
going for a cat-theme.  But ultimately, I think Stan would have admitted
that he got the name from the organization.  No, not during the 60s, but
during the 70s, he would have. 

[sinjection1]

.....HAD to have?

If you took Jack Kirby at his word (and his version of events seems more credible than Stan's) Stan Lee just filled in word baloons with verbiage.

Since 1966 is a long ways from 1947, I'll assume that Kirby might have recollected Lion Man's premise and adapted it. He could have come by it independently too (but it'd be one heck of a coincidence).  Outside of providing dialogue, I doubt that Stan Lee had much to do with the creation of Black Panther.

I suppose the reason I am compelled to tag Stan Lee with as much - if not more "credit" (culpability) than Jack Kirby for creating the Black Panther is two-fold.

First, it now seems more obvious than before that Marvel's Black Panther was not a "pure" original concept from "the house of ideas", but is in fact a re-working of a black American-created comicbook character and an opportunistic business move to attract young black-American readers to Marvel Comics by naming their company's "first black superhero" the Black Panther, obviously a name and a symbol of power and pride to black Americans...youthful black Americans in particular.

It has been suggested that the Black Panther owes his existence to two "white gods". What in fact seems to be the case is that those "white gods" may have been instead mere theives in the temple of the gods. I don't have anything in particular against Stan Lee, but it's easier for me to think of him as a thief in the temple than it is to think of Jack "King" Kirby - an artist and a person I happen to respect and admire.

Second, I consider how Roy Thomas wrote the Black Panther in his earliest Avengers appearances, especially Avengers #73 The Sting Of The Serpent, and #74 Pursue The Panther. Art imitates life and those two Avengers' stories reflected the tenor of those times. The Civil Rights Struggle was in full swing. Black "militancy" had forever removed black Americans from the negro helpless victim class to a people who were resolved to change the status quo by "whatever means necessary". Whether it be through non-violence or as the late, great Malcolm X put it, through "The Ballot or the Bullet", black Americans were no longer acquiescing to business as usual. They weren't taking the white American's blatant, overt disrespect and dehumanizing practices anymore. One of the symbols of this movement was the powerful Black Panther.

The Sons Of The Serpent were fomenting racial discord and committing physical assaults on black Americans. These things did not go unnoticed by T'Challa, the Black Panther. When the Avengers decided that enough was enough and it was time to confront the Serpents, it was T'Challa who said: "NO!! Those are MY people that the Serpents have been beating and killing! And I claim my right to take them... alone!"

Later in convincing the lovely Monica Lynne not to appear on an upcoming t.v. show dealing with the race issue, T'Challa said: "Listen carefully, please... I haven't much time! Don't go on t.v. tomorrow...I'm asking you as a SOUL BROTHER." Monica replies, "Soul Br...? Then you... Why haven't you let anyone know this before?" T'Challa had made Monica aware that he was a black man under that cool "costume" (one of the best-looking costumes ever created for a Marvel character, IMAHO), and asked why he hadn't let anyone know he was black before now? T'Challa answers: "I thought it was enough to be just a man! But now I know it's time to stand up and be counted!"

In this instance, T'Challa, the Black Panther King of Wakanda became the Black Panther, superhero analogue representative of the Black Panther Party as it existed at that time. Reading the foregoing dialogue, there is no way anyone can suggest that it is not the case. I had earlier credited Roy Thomas for writing the Black Panther as such a powerful character at that time. It was Seven who set me straight on that score. It seems Roy Thomas didn't much care for the Black Panther and didn't even want him in the Avengers. According to what Seven told me, It was Stan Lee who was the likely force behind this forceful, black man's Black Panther. As this is the case, it is clear to me that if Kirby didn't consider or care about the significance of Marvel's first black superhero being named the Black Panther during the events taking place at that time, Stan clearly did if T'Challa's stance against the white racist Serpents was any indication.

Stan Lee saw and HAD TO KNOW the significance and ramifications of "creating" the Black Panther and unleashing that character's symbolic power on the comicbook-reading public.

[sinjection1]

As far as the name goes, I have more trouble believing he got the name
from the Black Panther organization and/or it's predecessor.

That has become quite obvious, friend Kip 

One, it is believed that Marvel, maybe even Stan, changed Kirby's mask to cover up
all the Black skin because of how it might effect sales in the South.

"Believed" by yourself and by who else? It was clear from the beginning that the Black Panther was to be Marvel Comics' first black superhero. He was a young African man, a young black African man. I don't see how this information could have escaped the dedicated white Marvel Comic's fan who happened to live deep in the racially-segregated South. What?...covering T'Challa's face and body with an all-concealing mask and costume is going to magically transform his flesh from black to white? Also, Avengers #52 - the Black Panther's first appearance as an Avenger in an Avengers comicbook - features him wearing his HALF MASK and TOTALLY UNMASKED in the story. Any reader of that comicbook would be made immediately and unmistakably aware that the Black Panther was a BLACK MAN.

Do we really think they'd risk Southern stores refusing to sell a title that plays homage to the Black Panther organization?

Look at the evidence and decide for yourself, Kip. I'm assuming that there were white youth living in the racially-segregated South who were likely fans of Marvel Comics' Avengers title back then. Read my previous post in this discussion. Read the dialogue. Read for yourself how the Black Panther of Wakanda in effect, becomes the incarnation of the Black Panther Party in that Avengers comicbook. T'Challa referred to black Americans being beaten and killed by racist whites - the same type of white person usually found living in the racially-segregated U.S. - as HIS people. They weren't Wakandans, Kip. T'Challa referred to black Americans as HIS people. T'Challa demanded that the Avengers allow him to take the Serpents down..."ALONE!" as he saw it as his right as a black man...as THE BLACK PANTHER to avenge the acts of violence those white racists committed against HIS people. The evidence is clear and irrefutable, Kip. In that moment, T'Challa became the incarnation of the Black Panther Party. How can you NOT see that?

Especially when they shortly thereafter dropped the word "Black" from his name to avoid any confusion.

 

In Avengers #52, it does appear that T'Challa is referred to and also refers to himself as simply "the Panther". However, as early as Avengers #54, T'Challa refers to himself as "the BLACK PANTHER" when engaging in superhero/supervillian banter with the villian Whirlwind. By issue #56, T'Challa says the following; "That will hardly be necessary, Archer! Or have you forgotten why I am called...the BLACK PANTHER?" Later, speaking of avoiding confusion, T'Challa did undergo another name change, but it wasn't the "Black" that was dropped from his name, it was the "Panther". For a short time, the Black Panther was called the Black Leopard.

In Avengers #105, T'Challa explains to the nosy Hawkeye (resplendent in his powder-blue mini-dress with matching headband, the costume he chose to flit around in at that time, possibly in hopes of wooing the Scarlet Witch away from the Vision), why he changed his name. T'Challa says; "I did not want my personal goals and tribal heritage confused with political plans made by others. But in the final analysis, I decided that made as much sense as altering the Scarlet Witch's name--because witches are generally thought of as ugly. I am not a stereotype. I am myself. And I am the BLACK PANTHER." Perhaps, after the events of Avengers #73 & #74, Marvel editors felt they needed to have T'Challa back off from his black Americans "MY people" position so as not to alienate the LCB-RD. However, it wasn't the "Black" that was conciously dropped from his name for reasons of avoiding confusion. It was the "Panther" that was dropped. And now I am happy to say that T'Challa is now and forever, the Black Panther---that is of course, he will be when he regains his mantle from his lovely sister, Shuri.

Two, not only would they have to get stores to sell the book, but they would also have to get the Comic Code Authority to approve the book.  Given their stance at the time, it's not very likely.

Kip, Kip, Kip, Kip, Kip!!!! 

Brother, both Avengers #73 & #74 were approved by the Comic Code Authority. In Avengers #73, T'Challa was the very embodiment of the Black Panther Party, demanding to take down the white racist Serpents on his own and referring to himself as Monica Lynne's "Soul Brother". I wonder what the LCB-RD would have had to say if instead of being written by Roy Thomas way back then, the Sons Of The Serpent story had been written by Hudlin in the here and now. Hell's Bells!

And third, the name is a very logical name for a Black hero, if you are going for a cat-theme.

 

"...very logical name for a 'Black hero', if you are going for a cat-theme."    I say... Kip, are you saying that a Black hero can't be named Sabretooth, or Puma, or Wildcat,....or Bronze Tiger? Are you saying that the "very logical name for a Black hero" is to be named something with "Black" preceeding it? Like Black Lightning and Black Vulcan, two black characters often cited by the LCB-RD whenever they want to bitch about black heroes always having to have the word "black" preceeding their names?

But ultimately, I think Stan would have admitted that he got the name from the organization.  No, not during the 60s, but
during the 70s, he would have. 

Well, as far as I am concerned, Stan Lee did just that. He "borrowed" the name from the Black Panther party knowing that potential black readers would readily identify with the name and be excited about Marvel Comics' first black superhero. Recall that intially, T'Challa had that awful clown suit and was being called the Coal Tiger. You know by now what I have had to say about tigers and the African continent by now, so I won't....oh the hell I won't. There are NO TIGERS IN AFRICA.

So I'm still waiting for Stan Lee to admit that his decision to name Marvel's first black superhero the Black Panther was influenced by the Black Panther Party.

[KIP LEWIS]

Here is where I got that Marvel changed the mask from a half-mask to a full mask because they were concerned about selling a Black hero. 

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2010/04/15/comic-book-legends-revealed-256/

[sinjection1]

Here is where I got that Marvel changed the mask from a half-mask to a full mask because they were concerned about selling a Black hero.  

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2010/04/15/comic-book-legends-revealed-256/

Interesting. Interesting, and silly. The Black Panther may have debuted in FF#52 wearing a full mask, but was depicted in Avengers #51 positioned next to Captain America without his mask on. I'm interested in knowing the span of time elapsed between FF#52 and Avengers #51 and #52 and more so, Avengers #73 and #74 when the Black Panther was demanding to take on an organization of white racist villains alone. I can't remember ever reading FF#52, but I have to suspect that at least once during the story, T'Challa's black face was revealed. Given the nature of the story, it would have to had been so. Doesn't this seem to defeat the purpose of the Black Panther being drawn with a full mask? Such is the lunacy of racism.  

The half-mask didn't accomplish much it seems. The Black Panther was revealed to be a black man. The Black Panther has a dedicated hard-core audience of black readers while he is viewed with indifference or disdain by the LCB-RD. Personally, I prefer the full mask to the half-mask anyday. The Black Panther's full mask IMAHO, is more imposing and more foreboding than a half-mask would have been and compared to Spider-Man's full mask, the Panther's mask looks as if he means serious business. Spidey's mask makes him look like a circus clown. Let's not even discuss Deadpool's goofy mask. No. While the reasons for T'Challa's full mask has its origin in ignorance, I believe it has been manifested in magnificence.

[KIP LEWIS]

<<While the reasons for T'Challa's full mask has its origin in ignorance, I believe it has been manifested in magnificence. >>

Total agreement.  The half-mask to me has always made him look, blah, but the full mask is majesty.

I think they were concerned about the half mask on the cover more than inside the book.  Inside, we see his real face, but the cover is advertising.

[KIP LEWIS]

When did T join the Avengers?  Here's the timeline--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_(comics)

"Following his debut in Fantastic Four #52-53 (July-Aug. 1966) and subsequent guest appearance in Fantastic Four Annual #5 (1967) and with Captain America in Tales of Suspense #97-99 (Jan.-March 1968), the Black Panther sojourned from the fictional African nation of Wakanda to New York City, New York to join the titular American superhero team in The Avengers #52 (May 1968), appearing in that comic for the next few years."