Author Topic: Probably LEGAL "Satire," but Utterly Disgusting  (Read 5919 times)

michaelintp

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Re: Probably LEGAL "Satire," but Utterly Disgusting
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2010, 05:01:53 pm »
Reginald, what you said immediately above has been gnawing at me.  I've got to ask ...
Are you personally opposed to interracial relationships and interracial marrage? Do you have reservations of any kind?
Or do you see this as a non-issue?
???

Non-issue.  I have said on this board more than once, love is such a wonderful thing, and such a hard thing to find in this world, if you find it - HOLD ON! 

Thanks for the clarification.  Hope you didn't mind my asking.  I didn't originally think this was an issue for you based on our years or "correspondence" on the Forum ... but then ... I just became uncertain. (And have heard different points of view on the Forum from others from time to time).

Honestly, I'm kinda tired of this whole line of discussion. We've discussed this stuff 'till we are all blue in the face. I don't see it being all that productive. To me race is so irrelevant, and I wish it were that way with everyone. Beliefs are important, sure, one's sense of purpose in the world is important, sure, one's values, sure, but ... to me, it has always seemed that race is such a arbitrary thing, about as significant as hair or eye color (with all varieties being lovely).

Too bad I stopped reading comic books. That was something fun to talk about (even if the discussions did inevitably turn to the politics in the comics).  ;)

Offline jefferson L.O.B. sergeant

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Re: Probably LEGAL "Satire," but Utterly Disgusting
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2010, 06:29:05 pm »
Reginald, what you said immediately above has been gnawing at me.  I've got to ask ...
Are you personally opposed to interracial relationships and interracial marrage? Do you have reservations of any kind?
Or do you see this as a non-issue?
???

Non-issue.  I have said on this board more than once, love is such a wonderful thing, and such a hard thing to find in this world, if you find it - HOLD ON! 


Honestly, I'm kinda tired of this whole line of discussion. We've discussed this stuff 'till we are all blue in the face. I don't see it being all that productive. To me race is so irrelevant, and I wish it were that way with everyone.

I guess you must be tired of living in America then.

With all due respect, I find this comment to be quite bizarre, especially given your posts on the forum.

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Probably LEGAL "Satire," but Utterly Disgusting
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2010, 07:04:54 pm »
To me race is so irrelevant, and I wish it were that way with everyone.

Michael, if only we could opt out. You'll probably hate this, but honestly, the view that "race is irrelevant" is exclusively a white privilege.

By the way, I wish anti-Semitism (and sexism, and ...) would vanish too but I recognize that's just wishful thinking on my part. As long as they exist, I think we have some obligation to deal with them.
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
"Be hard on systems, but soft on people."

michaelintp

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Re: Probably LEGAL "Satire," but Utterly Disgusting
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2010, 07:34:20 am »
Jefferson, you comment above reflects how profoundly you misinterpret my comments on this forum, or perhaps what I poor job I do in communicating my perspective and goals (in serious discussions, as opposed to when we're kidding around).

In response to both your and Curtis's comment ... if you look closely at my posts throughout the years, you will see that my concerns are broad, but one major focus is my opposition to intolerance and bigotry. This concern is not limited to racial bigotry (though that is an important element) but beyond that to (of course) antisemitism, religious (or anti-religious) intolerance, political intolerance, and so on.  A second goal is to try to be analytically precise. Which is why I try to raise questions challenging people's assumptions or presumptions. When we have discussed racial issues on the Forum, I've challenged what appear to me to be preconceptions, potential flaws in reasoning, or result-driven analyses that may do more harm than good (by providing detailed critiques of analyses provided in posted articles and so forth, often raising points that nobody had thought of or ... didn't want to think of). As another example, some have accused me of anti-Muslim prejudice, whereas in fact I have been very clear in only condemning the Jihadists and those who sympathize with them, but not all Muslims. When Reginald posted an article by a religious Muslim critical of stoning and stating that the Qur'an doesn't mandate stoning, I contacted the author directly, to get a better sense of exactly what his position is and where he is coming from, was impressed, and shared what I found with everyone.

Actually Curtis, I deal with issues surrounding prejudice frequently on Forum. As to racial prejudice and religious bigotry, I was quick to condemn Mark Williams, one of the "Tea Party" spokesmen, who was recently ejected from the Tea Party Federation, long before he was ejected. As another example, some time ago, when I heard Rush Limbaugh do a "skit" about President Obama that I found to be racially offensive, I shared that with everyone on the Forum (describing the incident and providing everyone the day and time that I heard the broadcast ... even though I sympathize with some of his Conservative positions, though I don't care for his demeanor one bit). At the same time, I've little tolerance for the practice of taking quotes out of context to fabricate "offensive" or "outlandish" material and also at times have pointed out double-standards and unwarranted generalizing (which is often politically driven). Thus, given the political slant on the Forum, I have pointed out the prejudice, preconceptions, and the like, originating from those on the Left, in fostering ethnic or racial division and hostility. I see prejudice coming from some on the Right and some on the Left. Though, as to the latter, it may be harder for you to see.

One reason why some of you may misunderstand where I am coming from is that when I condemn the statements from those on the Right that are offensive, nobody notices, because you all agree with me. When I point the finger at those on the Left, on the other hand, the reaction is quite different.  And since most of you are on the Left, and most are in a rather constant "bash Conservatives" mode, when I challenge you, you think I am somehow challenging opposition to racism, bigotry and prejudice, when nothing could be further from the truth. 

Because, more than anything, it is the unwarranted hate that bothers me. I don't care if it is coming from someone who is white or black, Democrat or Republican, American or foreign, Christian, Muslim, Jew or Secularist.

Another strain of thought you'll note in many of my posts is the viewing of men and women as individuals, advocating respect for the individual and the rights of the individual.  As well as principles of individual responsibility and morality.

Finally Curtis, in stating that race is irrelevant (a mere accident of birth, of no real significance) I was stating a biological fact and my feelings on the subject. I was further stating my vision as to how things should be with regard to attitudes. I was not asserting a denial of the existence of racism, any more than I would deny the existence of antisemitism. However, I believe some folk on the Left, as well as some folk on the Right, do not share my vision as to how things should be, but rather are driven by other motivations (political, personal, plain prejudice and bias, you name it). I find this objectionable.

I really don't want to get into a re-hash of the specific matters we have discussed from hundreds of posts in the past, so I'll leave it at that. I do think it is worthwhile to note, however, that the main thrust of my first post on this thread was to lay out what I found to be offensive in Mark William's conduct, and also at the end of that post to express criticism of the propagation of racist stereotypes.

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Probably LEGAL "Satire," but Utterly Disgusting
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2010, 09:27:38 am »
Finally Curtis, in stating that race is irrelevant (a mere accident of birth, of no real significance) I was stating a biological fact and my feelings on the subject. I was further stating my vision as to how things should be with regard to attitudes. I was not asserting a denial of the existence of racism, any more than I would deny the existence of antisemitism. However, I believe some folk on the Left, as well as some folk on the Right, do not share my vision as to how things should be, but rather are driven by other motivations (political, personal, plain prejudice and bias, you name it). I find this objectionable.

Thanks for expounding on your statement, Micheal. This is exactly what I understood you to mean. I agree with you that biologically, race is a myth, no more significant than any geographic variation. Race is a social construct. There is also a cultural component that is correlated. I would like to live where who I am -- in appearance, culturally, socially -- is not disadvantageous to my life chances economically, socially, etc. That is not the same as color-blind, but it might be color-neutral. I don't expect to see that in the US in my lifetime.

I appreciate that you do wrestle with race and class issues. I am glad that you are willing to call out intolerance and bigotry. I wonder if you are also sensitive to the more insidious forms of disadvantage that brown and black folks (among others) are burdened with when they are not necessarily accompanied by vitriol. These are often complex questions of historical and societal injustice. It seems to me that you often give these notions short shrift.

Often when I interact with you especially around issues of race, I am not necessarily disagreeing with what you said but speaking about another facet of the issue at hand.
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."
"Be hard on systems, but soft on people."

Offline bluezulu

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Re: Probably LEGAL "Satire," but Utterly Disgusting
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2010, 06:04:19 pm »
The use of "house nigger" as a term and description for those who posses self-hate and overly identify with those who actively work for causes that work against them is a survival instinct. Being conservative financially is one thing, social-conservatism has often been veiled as other things like I hate every thing that is not like me. Over simplified maybe.

michaelintp

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Re: Probably LEGAL "Satire," but Utterly Disgusting
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2010, 08:33:53 pm »
That is not the same as color-blind, but it might be color-neutral. I don't expect to see that in the US in my lifetime.

I like the description "color neutral." Makes more sense than "color blind." Of course one can seeee colors.

How else could some gentlemen prefer blonds, while others prefer brunettes?

While the rest of us love 'em all.  ;)

If I wasn't such a good boy, wouldda posted three good ol' fashioned photos suitable for the ol' Hudlin 100 thread.

Oh, and don't be sooooo pessimistic. This is the advice coming from the Official Forum Pessimist, hahaha.

The worst case scenario that I see is not the rise of the new KKK. Rather, it is the destructive effect of the propaganda from the Left, premeditated to foster racial hostility against white folk, that may force "race consciousness" down the throats of people who by disposition in this day and age identify themselves in a zillion other ways, and embrace no concept of "whiteness" whatsoever. (Those KGB plants who infiltrated the Left had their plans, after all ... to pit American against American; the tenticles of the dead beast of International Communism are looooong, twitching long after the beast's heart stopped beating).

As an extreme example, I remember a story from the Balkans, where some Christians and Muslims who lived in relative harmony with their neighbors for years ending up killing one another. During the war a Muslim and Christian were shooting at one another at close quarters, inside a building. One ran out of bullets. The other went over to his enemy, and said with both anger and sadness, "I will never forgive you ... for what you've turned me into" ... and then he pulled the trigger. 

I'm not saying that we will descend to that level. We surely will not. But I am saying that there are positive and negative ways to go about fighting against racial prejudice ... and fostering racial hostility against another racial group is not the way go about it.

Oh sheeeeesh, how did I start out so light, and end up so sombre?  Must be the pessimist in me.  :o  Blaaaaaaaa!  I'm gonna go walk the dog.

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Probably LEGAL "Satire," but Utterly Disgusting
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2010, 08:38:22 pm »
What is the difference between self hate and "every man for himself" opportunism anyway?

It had occured to me long ago that the quickest way to get published as a black pundit was to repudiate the civil rights movement and\or its works.

If being a Ward Connery clone can get  you published im sure that in itself would reason enough for somebody to give it a whirl.

Im not silly enough to think these guys are secretly down for the cause or whatever i just think they'll say anything to get paid.

That not looking out for massa's interests, that's looking for your own.

michaelintp

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Re: Probably LEGAL "Satire," but Utterly Disgusting
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2010, 08:50:22 pm »
Vic, I give people more credit than you.  Are there some opportunists?  Sure, on the Left and the Right. There are bucks to me made, contributions to collect, and grants to receive, after all.  I think most people who present thought-out positions are sincere.That of course goes for folks of all races, black and white and any other color you choose. Still, the point you make in describing the opportunists did give me a bit of a chukle.

... and Blue, I see your point about economic vs. social conservatism.  Though in some ways, particularly when it comes to my kids and what I will not allow them to do (haha), I'm pretty socially conservative myself.