Author Topic: The Co-Opting of the Black struggle  (Read 10611 times)

Offline JLI Jesse

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Re: The Co-Opting of the Black struggle
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2010, 12:55:30 pm »
Just so you're clear, I am not gay.  But I semi-empathize with homosexuals because I do NOT believe they choose to be gay.[/color]

I'd still love you either way   :-*

Offline Cage

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Re: The Co-Opting of the Black struggle
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2010, 10:24:02 pm »
I'm not really sure what folks are arguing about here. It seems pretty clear that there are some similarities and some differences between now and 50 years ago. That is to say, making comparisons seems reasonable; "equating" the two doesn't.

That said, civil rights are for everybody. Does everybody remember this?

Quote
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.

– “Letter from Birmingham Jail,” 16 Apr. 1963



Co-Sign
I ventured into the courtyard followed by 52 brothers bruised battered and scarred but hard.

Offline Cage

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Re: The Co-Opting of the Black struggle
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2010, 10:24:29 pm »
If Black Folk find the Gay Civil Rights Struggles=Black Civil Rights Struggles concept so offensive they need to tell their church folk to stop dragging out that whole tired "Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" mantra out too.  

Somebody please pass this on to the living relatives of Emmett Till.

Ever heard of Brandon Teena?

Cc-Sign again.

We don't have the monopoly on being Hate Crime victims either.

Never heard the name. Maybe I'll look it up once I get through the THOUSANDS of Black Men, Women and Children who brutally murdered following a Civil War that supposedly freed them or the millions of Blacks who were subjected to almost 100 years of State sanctioned discrimination, reinforced by public and private TERRORISM. So, yeah MAYBE I'll look up "Brandon Teena".  You ever heard of "Sam Mosby"? Bet you haven't, and why should you? He was my Great Grandfather, just another Southern n¡gger murdered by whites in front of his family because he got too "uppity".

I could bring up similar stories from my own family but what's the point? It doesn't change the facts. Discrimination is Discrimination. Hate crime is Hate Crime. The "who has/had it worst argument" is irrelevent.

If you are pro-civil rights then you have to be against ALL discrimination, not just when it happens to the folks you are down with.

Otherwise just say, "I'm only against bad stuff happening to me and mine and eff everybody else".

Which is fine.    

But know you are abdicating the moral high ground.

I ventured into the courtyard followed by 52 brothers bruised battered and scarred but hard.

Offline jefferson L.O.B. sergeant

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Re: The Co-Opting of the Black struggle
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2010, 11:45:45 pm »
I'm not really sure what folks are arguing about here. It seems pretty clear that there are some similarities and some differences between now and 50 years ago. That is to say, making comparisons seems reasonable; "equating" the two doesn't.

That said, civil rights are for everybody. Does everybody remember this?

Quote
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.

– “Letter from Birmingham Jail,” 16 Apr. 1963



Co-Sign



What exactly are you co-signing here?

I've watched numerous debates where gay advocates were explicitly offered full rights in the form of civil unions and they stated they would refuse them. They want a complete redefining of the institution of marriage.

How can it be an issue of discrimination where equal rights are being offered and yet refused by the supposedly aggreaved party?

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: The Co-Opting of the Black struggle
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2010, 05:33:34 am »
I'm not really sure what folks are arguing about here. It seems pretty clear that there are some similarities and some differences between now and 50 years ago. That is to say, making comparisons seems reasonable; "equating" the two doesn't.

That said, civil rights are for everybody. Does everybody remember this?

Quote
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.

– “Letter from Birmingham Jail,” 16 Apr. 1963



Co-Sign



What exactly are you co-signing here?

I've watched numerous debates where gay advocates were explicitly offered full rights in the form of civil unions and they stated they would refuse them. They want a complete redefining of the institution of marriage.

How can it be an issue of discrimination where equal rights are being offered and yet refused by the supposedly aggreaved party?

As someone pointed out earlier, "Separate but equal" is a point of comparison.
If civil union is exactly like marriage except for the name, why do we need a new name? To offer a semantic fig leaf?

Not that it really matters. This is a question of when, not if. 
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"Be hard on systems, but soft on people."

Offline Kristopher

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Re: The Co-Opting of the Black struggle
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2010, 06:18:46 am »
Quote
Hate crime is Hate Crime.
Never stated otherwise.

Quote
The "who has/had it worst argument" is irrelevent.
That depends on the situation.
I remember last year when a co-worker got a flu shot that, according to her, HURT. She than told me (knowing full well that I've taken thousands of insulin shots 2-3 times a day since 1976) she understands what I go thru. Sorry, then, like now, I have to call BULLSH¡T!

Quote
If you are pro-civil rights then you have to be against ALL discrimination, not just when it happens to the folks you are down with.
I believe in equal rights for everyone, what I have problems with is people making historically inaccurate comparisons!

Quote
Otherwise just say, "I'm only against bad stuff happening to me and mine and eff everybody else".

Which is fine.   

But know you are abdicating the moral high ground.

Too many black folk spend their lives ignoring issues that affect them the most and advocate and take care of other people. I’m not one of them. I’m not going to run and put out the fire next door until I get the one in my house under control, because 200 years of being white folks' pets, followed by 100 years of oppression in the South and discrimination in the North hasn't been wiped away by a measly 4 and a half decades of half hearted remediations and 1 Presidential election.

Frankly, I’m surprised Gays haven’t closed the deal on this marriage thing by now. Let's be real, all the hard work has been done by the courageous freedom fighters of the past that put their very lives on the line to get “Civil Rights”. As BMore Akuma alluded to, there were no state sanctions/restrictions placed on Gays that would justify their “plight” being compared to the terror faced by Blacks, the imprisonment faced by Japanese, the suffrage of Women, etc. Today, Gays are ingrained in every aspect of this society, largely due to the hard work of others AFTER the blood had been spilled; they got to reap the benefits. Only now they have a fight that affects them only and they don’t know how to get down. If they want their “Rights”, then by ALL means,  they should follow the example of the group they want to compare themselves with draw a line in the sand and go fight for those rights. Boycotts, March, mass demonstrations nationwide, get locked up, etc. The blueprint has been laid out for a long time now, all they have to do is gather their guts and pull the trigger. Nothing worth having comes easy or without a REAL fight. And just think, they don’t have to worry about police dogs, fire hoses and Bull Connor.




Offline Vic Vega

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Re: The Co-Opting of the Black struggle
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2010, 08:47:19 am »
[
Too many black folk spend their lives ignoring issues that affect them the most and advocate and take care of other people. I’m not one of them. I’m not going to run and put out the fire next door until I get the one in my house under control, because 200 years of being white folks' pets, followed by 100 years of oppression in the South and discrimination in the North hasn't been wiped away by a measly 4 and a half decades of half hearted remediations and 1 Presidential election.

Frankly, I’m surprised Gays haven’t closed the deal on this marriage thing by now. Let's be real, all the hard work has been done by the courageous freedom fighters of the past that put their very lives on the line to get “Civil Rights”. As BMore Akuma alluded to, there were no state sanctions/restrictions placed on Gays that would justify their “plight” being compared to the terror faced by Blacks, the imprisonment faced by Japanese, the suffrage of Women, etc. Today, Gays are ingrained in every aspect of this society, largely due to the hard work of others AFTER the blood had been spilled; they got to reap the benefits. Only now they have a fight that affects them only and they don’t know how to get down. If they want their “Rights”, then by ALL means,  they should follow the example of the group they want to compare themselves with draw a line in the sand and go fight for those rights. Boycotts, March, mass demonstrations nationwide, get locked up, etc. The blueprint has been laid out for a long time now, all they have to do is gather their guts and pull the trigger. Nothing worth having comes easy or without a REAL fight. And just think, they don’t have to worry about police dogs, fire hoses and Bull Connor.

The folks who got thier heads busted in at Stonewall or during the White Night Riots might disagree with you. Not to mention the surviving relatives of Harvel Milk or George Moscone.

Offline BmoreAkuma

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Re: The Co-Opting of the Black struggle
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2010, 10:24:47 am »


The folks who got thier heads busted in at Stonewall or during the White Night Riots might disagree with you. Not to mention the surviving relatives of Harvel Milk or George Moscone.

With the power of google i read up on this. Wow I had no idea. How come it isnt "out there" as much in comparison to the other riots that occured? I could be mistaken as well and maybe GLAAD brings it up. But honestly I was so ignorant of it. I can understand it was under the radar since there were many other civil rights movements as well.

Here is a goodie about the riots

Quote
a secret legion of people, known of but discounted, ignored, laughed at or despised. And like the holders of a secret, they had an advantage which was a disadvantage, too, and which was true of no other minority group in the United States. They were invisible. Unlike African Americans, women, Native Americans, Jews, the Irish, Italians, Asians, Hispanics, or any other cultural group which struggled for respect and equal rights, homosexuals had no physical or cultural markings, no language or dialect which could identify them to each other, or to anyone else ... But that night, for the first time, the usual acquiescence turned into violent resistance ... From that night the lives of millions of gay men and lesbians, and the attitude toward them of the larger culture in which they lived, began to change rapidly. People began to appear in public as homosexuals, demanding respect
I wanted to point this out and it should be clear.

With these choices, I felt that the American black man only needed to choose which one to get eaten by; the liberal fox or the conservative wolf because both of them will eat him.

Offline Kristopher

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Re: The Co-Opting of the Black struggle
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2010, 12:03:29 pm »
[
Too many black folk spend their lives ignoring issues that affect them the most and advocate and take care of other people. I’m not one of them. I’m not going to run and put out the fire next door until I get the one in my house under control, because 200 years of being white folks' pets, followed by 100 years of oppression in the South and discrimination in the North hasn't been wiped away by a measly 4 and a half decades of half hearted remediations and 1 Presidential election.

Frankly, I’m surprised Gays haven’t closed the deal on this marriage thing by now. Let's be real, all the hard work has been done by the courageous freedom fighters of the past that put their very lives on the line to get “Civil Rights”. As BMore Akuma alluded to, there were no state sanctions/restrictions placed on Gays that would justify their “plight” being compared to the terror faced by Blacks, the imprisonment faced by Japanese, the suffrage of Women, etc. Today, Gays are ingrained in every aspect of this society, largely due to the hard work of others AFTER the blood had been spilled; they got to reap the benefits. Only now they have a fight that affects them only and they don’t know how to get down. If they want their “Rights”, then by ALL means,  they should follow the example of the group they want to compare themselves with draw a line in the sand and go fight for those rights. Boycotts, March, mass demonstrations nationwide, get locked up, etc. The blueprint has been laid out for a long time now, all they have to do is gather their guts and pull the trigger. Nothing worth having comes easy or without a REAL fight. And just think, they don’t have to worry about police dogs, fire hoses and Bull Connor.



The folks who got thier heads busted in at Stonewall or during the White Night Riots might disagree with you. Not to mention the surviving relatives of Harvel Milk or George Moscone.

I stand corrected.
1 or 2 flu shots=20,000 insulin shots. No difference, it's all the same ::)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 12:05:11 pm by Kristopher »

Offline Kristopher

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Re: The Co-Opting of the Black struggle
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2010, 12:08:19 pm »
Quote
Hate crime is Hate Crime.
Never stated otherwise.

Quote
The "who has/had it worst argument" is irrelevent.
That depends on the situation.
I remember last year when a co-worker got a flu shot that, according to her, HURT. She than told me (knowing full well that I've taken thousands of insulin shots 2-3 times a day since 1976) she understands what I go thru. Sorry, then, like now, I have to call BULLSH¡T!


Oops, my bad.

Offline Afro Samurai

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Re: The Co-Opting of the Black struggle
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2010, 12:23:31 pm »
*Sigh* I am tired of azns, arabs, gays etc. comparing their problems to black ppl. Fact is, gay were accepted during ancient greek time.....black has never been accepted by other. Blacks has been enslaved & hated on by azns, arabs, gay, etc.......the same ppl who are now bitching about equal rights.

There is even a big thing about white gays hating on black gays.....wtf@that. Black ppl have it the worst & gay need to stfu about gay being the "new black." Cause you can hide being gay. Also white gays are accepted more then hetro blacks. Blacks cant leave wars, but gays can (well it used to be that way, I don't know now). So they really bitchin for nothing.
INTERRACIAL RELATIONSHIPS IS A SIN!!!!!! YOU'LL DIE QUICKER AND ALSO BURN IN HELL. THOSE ARE THE FACTS, BITCHES!!!!!!!!!

Offline TripleX

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Re: The Co-Opting of the Black struggle
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2010, 07:59:11 pm »
How do you hide being gay? As soon as your friends, neighbors, co-workers etc. notice there's no woman in your life and that you have no children the cats outta the bag. You'd have to constantly put up a MASSIVE front and make being a liar a full time job. You'd also have to drag some naive, unsuspecting woman into the mix to cover for you. Then you'd not only be gay, you'd be a selfish, down low, @sshole too.

It must be awful standing on the wrong side of history. Y'all must feel like Archie Bunker. lol The homophobes are just gonna have to die off before the gays can live freely. It's happening sooner rather than later, get your burial plots ready.

Offline Wise Son

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Re: The Co-Opting of the Black struggle
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2010, 02:31:19 am »
I'm not really sure what folks are arguing about here. It seems pretty clear that there are some similarities and some differences between now and 50 years ago. That is to say, making comparisons seems reasonable; "equating" the two doesn't.

That said, civil rights are for everybody. Does everybody remember this?

Quote
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.

– “Letter from Birmingham Jail,” 16 Apr. 1963


Like Cage, I have to co-sign. The gay struggle has similarities and big differences the black struggle, but it is an injustice, and a denial of equal civil rights, and as so, should be supported, because of what your quote says - Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

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Offline Kristopher

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Re: The Co-Opting of the Black struggle
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2010, 05:06:02 am »
It must be awful standing on the wrong side of history. Y'all must feel like Archie Bunker. lol The homophobes are just gonna have to die off before the gays can live freely. It's happening sooner rather than later, get your burial plots ready.

If they want their “Rights”, then by ALL means,  they should follow the example of the group they want to compare themselves with draw a line in the sand and go fight for those rights. Boycotts, March, mass demonstrations nationwide, get locked up, etc. The blueprint has been laid out for a long time now, all they have to do is gather their guts and pull the trigger. Nothing worth having comes easy or without a REAL fight. And just think, they don’t have to worry about police dogs, fire hoses and Bull Connor.

Offline TripleX

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Re: The Co-Opting of the Black struggle
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2010, 07:19:51 am »
If they want their “Rights”, then by ALL means,  they should follow the example of the group they want to compare themselves with draw a line in the sand and go fight for those rights. Boycotts, March, mass demonstrations nationwide, get locked up, etc. The blueprint has been laid out for a long time now, all they have to do is gather their guts and pull the trigger. Nothing worth having comes easy or without a REAL fight. And just think, they don’t have to worry about police dogs, fire hoses and Bull Connor.

Dats wassup bruh, we agree on something. I can't argue with none of that.