Poll

Are there any anti_Panther rants you agree with?

T'Challa's racist!
0 (0%)
Reggie Hudlin's racist!
1 (3.3%)
Doom's not really racist!
3 (10%)
Reggie Hudlin called us racist!
2 (6.7%)
It doesn't respect continuity!
6 (20%)
Panther wouldn't talk like that!
1 (3.3%)
Storm wouldn't talk like that!
0 (0%)
Africans don't talk like that!
1 (3.3%)
Hudlin only wants Storm as a brood-mare / he's making her slutty!
0 (0%)
Panther and Storm are too ghetto!
1 (3.3%)
Not enough Ross!
1 (3.3%)
Not enough white characters!
0 (0%)
Panther couldn't beat Cap!
2 (6.7%)
I preferred Priest (although evidently I didn't buy it)
0 (0%)
None at all
12 (40%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Author Topic: Related to rants - are any of them right?  (Read 9161 times)

Offline Wise Son

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Related to rants - are any of them right?
« on: November 20, 2006, 12:54:08 am »
Thought it might be interesting to see if there are any more fair-minded people who agree with any of the rants I mentioned in my last poll. I have added an option for not agreeing with any (which I'm expecting to win), but I'm interested to see if any of the other options get a hit. Up to 3 votes avaialble, should you need them, just to copy the rules from my last one. Obviously, if you vote for 'none at all', don't be dumb and vote for another option as well. That'd be just stoopid.

Just to make my position clear - there have been the odd bits of dialogue that have jarred for me, but not enough to make me feel that it was any kind of problem, and it happens less and less. Also, I did like Priest's run, but that doesn't stop me from liking this one. They're both good (and I admit, I only discovered the Priest Panther posthumously).

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Offline Marvelous

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Re: Related to rants - are any of them right?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2006, 01:27:10 am »
Ill do one better, Ill try to answer all of them, I really dont mind what people think of my opinions, they are just mine.  Its all personal.  ;D

T'Challa's racist! - No
Reggie Hudlin's racist! - Don't know the man personally and have not read anything on the matter, I usually keep with the smaller community forums and try my best to stay out of gossip threads.
Doom's not really racist! - I like Doom, if he's a racist and writen well, Im in it for a good read.
Reggie Hudlin called us racist! - Huh?  Haven't heard that one...feel me in.  ???
It doesn't respect continuity! - I used to be a continuity hound back in the day with Byrne and Claremont but it doesnt really matter now, just gimme something good to read.  ps. Still won't do the Ultimate Titles or All-Star Titles.  Even though they've had good writers, I cant get a fix off of the mainstream continuity.
Panther wouldn't talk like that! - Don't have a prob with dialogue from the Panther or T'chala, both personas are written well.  Writers that make dialogue sound "real life" is the best IMHO.  And Hud's is doing a great job.
Storm wouldn't talk like that! - This is where I have a little prob.  I'm all for Storm and BP hookin up but It was really hard for me to see Storm leave the X-Men, If she would have left back when they had Gold and Blue Teams or X-Treme when she was leading, THEN I woulda had a big problem with it.  She will always be and should stay in some kind of leadership role.  As for the way she talks or written, I'd like her to be a little more bossy I guess.  Maybe show more power and presence in the book.
Africans don't talk like that! - The only Africans Ive seen are the ones in Johnny Weissmuller Tarzan Shows and National Geographics.  Not being disrespectful but I dont get out to Africa much and I don't watch that much TV.  I know I should.  :(
Hudlin only wants Storm as a brood-mare / he's making her slutty! - Nah.
Panther and Storm are too ghetto! - Don't see it.
Not enough Ross! - Get back to ya on this...
Not enough white characters! - Umm, they are in Wakanda, Africa.  When Priest wrote him in the US, there was a "fair" share of whites.  :D RH is on the ball.
Panther couldn't beat Cap! - Personally, depends on the righter.  Technically I see BP like Batman, if he is prepare or if you're in his home, he will kick your ass.
I preferred Priest (although evidently I didn't buy it) - I only read Priest because of TEX, another one of my fave artists.  The story was good.  Im enjoying RH's Panther just as much.  I can say this, I've read more RH's Panther than Priest's.  ;)

These are just my personal opinions, would love to hear from others and what they think.  Great post Sam!


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Offline Wise Son

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Re: Related to rants - are any of them right?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2006, 02:30:55 am »
Ill do one better, Ill try to answer all of them, I really dont mind what people think of my opinions, they are just mine.  Its all personal.  ;D
Appreciate the effort. :)
Reggie Hudlin called us racist! - Huh?  Haven't heard that one...feel me in.  ???
Just that Reggie has said how some people may have issues with his Panther because of subconscious racial issues. In fanboy minds this became 'OH NOES HUDLIN says everyone is RACIST if they don't like his Panther!'

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Offline sinjection1

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Re: Related to rants - are any of them right?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2006, 04:17:14 am »
I'm already on record as saying that all of the anti-Hudlin/anti-Hudlin's Panther rants are crap and should be flushed down the crapper, toilet, porcelain god...outhouse  :D  ... and I'm sticking to that statement.

1) Reggie Hudlin called us racist:

Hudlin is an intelligent man. An intelligent man would look at the argument of the individual in opposition to his opinion or his actions and respond to the argument of that individual. The intelligent man wouldn't paint all individuals opposed to him with the same broad brush. From what I've seen, Hudlin isn't guilty of the "broad brush" treatment where his opposition has been concerned. As Hudlin has undoubtedly discovered and, as many participants in this forum have also learned, there is a segment of the larger comicbook-buying demographic who do harbor racist ideals and form their opinions based upon those racist ideals.  That racism - no matter how "diluted" or "cloaked" it might be - is evident when they proffer their criticisms of Hudlin's work, talents and personality. Not every member of the larger comicbook-buying demographic is racist. I'm sure many of them might even "self-evaluate" in order to be absolutely certain that their opposing opinions aren't tainted. Then again, there is that whiny white fanguy/fangal segment. Not even that segment of the larger comicbook-buying demographic is wholly racist. But as one legendary former major network newscaster once said, "If it walks like a duck, and if it quacks like a duck...it's a duck." If Hudlin suggested that such a person was racist, he was likely correct and within his right to say so.

Such a "quacking duck" from the whiny white fanguy/fangal segment of the larger comicbook-buying demographic would likely be responsible for the other baseless rants:

2) Africans don't talk like that.

3) Panther and Storm are too ghetto.


2) Africans don't talk like that.

Whenever a "quacking duck" posts something to this effect, he or she is manifesting prejudice, racism and ignorance. I don't believe I have to get into the particulars as to why this is the case.

3) Panther and Storm are too ghetto

Marvel Comic's most popular and best-respected black characters are NOT African-American  :)

Many white comicbook fans and the racist white comicbook fan in particular, would sooner accept a noble, black character from Africa, Europe,...the dark side of the moon...before they would be willing to recognize and embrace those traits in an African-American character. This attitude likely has its roots in the turbulent history existing between white and black Americans since the days of chattel slavery to today's time.

Therefore, whenever one of the more strident whiny white fanguys or fangals perceive that the Panther or Storm might be associating too much with black American characters or even adopting some of their words and mannerisms in communicating with one another, those "quacking ducks" will be likely to make the "too ghetto" observation. Oh, it's fine when eminem, Britney Spears, the Backstreet Boys, N'Sync and one of the other "wannabes" behave in the way an "urban" black American would. That's when the behavior ceases to be "ghetto" and becomes "kewl"  :D

But don't let the Panther or Storm act that way. The day Panther and Storm realize they're black people and begin to communicate with their black brothers and sisters around the globe in a manner that makes everyone comfortable and relaxed with one another, then the "quacking duck" feels left out of the equation and the quacking and whining will commence.

The late, great Malcolm X related in his autobiography, an incident that happened during his youth. It seemed that Malcolm had a friend - a brother - who was a practical joker and absolutely fearless. He was so confident, he would attempt anything to see if he could "pull if off". This practical joker was very accomplished in effecting an "African accent".  The average white Southerner who wouldn't know any differently, would likely be fooled by the phony accent. Realizing this, Malcolm's friend dressed himself up like a black man from a foreign land and walked into a racially-restricted restaurant expecting to be served. The suspicious Southern white racists working in the establishment, quizzed Malcolm's friend to make sure he wasn't one of the "locals". That establishment wouldn't serve any of the "locals", but they'd make an exception in the case of a black man from another country who would likely be a "step above" their "locals".  Malcolm X's friend was served and because he was, "served" those white racists who were so ignorant they didn't realize they were serving a black American prankster.

Many of the "quacking ducks" have a similar mentality to the ignorant Southern white racists in that restaurant. Sure, make T'Challa and Ororo speak in stiff, proper dialogue all of the time and make sure they keep company with lots of white people. It's fine if you show T'Challa weak, infirmed, dying and half-insane. It's okay to show him confused and frightened. But damnit Hudlin, if you want to keep the larger comicbook-buying demographic and their extreme segment of "quacking ducks" happy, don't you ever portray Wakanda as being "all that and a large bucket of Popeye's Chicken". Don't ever portray a mighty Wakanda that is respected and feared in the world. Don't you ever portray the Panther as a cool, confident, powerful leader capable of defeating every character from Captain America - to Sentry - to Thor. Don't you ever portray his wife Ororo as lovely, untouchable by anyone save her husband, regal and also capable of kicking Sentry's ass. Don't you ever portray black people as being independent, confident, self-sufficient and having minds of their own because "everyone" (which as we have recently learned is another way "those fans" refer to themselves), knows that no such black people exist.  If and when you do that Hudlin, you will have shown yourself to be a no-talent, racist hack of a writer.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2006, 04:21:59 am by sinjection1 »
Mr. MajestiK, I like your style. You are the wiser, calmer, more articulate second coming of sinjection to "that other place". You do me proud.

Offline Mastrmynd

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Re: Related to rants - are any of them right?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2006, 10:50:10 am »
when i first read black panther, my issue was that T'challa sounded too "American". Can you believe I said that?

And I meant it.

I even sent Mr. Hudlin an email address...to his person email account.
Guess what?
He wrote me back.

 :o

As the book went on, i liked the voice because it SPOKE TO ME.  I could relate.  I felt like I was in on the inside joke.  Kna'mean?
I loved seeing Fred Sanford drawn in... i loved seeing 4 Black Marvel U characters working together then driving off into the sunset in a convertible... i love the new Dora Milaje... and I am in awe of Storm's Booty!

this is the FUBU of marvel comics... For Us, By (some of) Us.

Reggie is my man 50 grand and unless BP turns into an Asian woman, make mine T'Challa's Marvel!


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Right on to the real and death to the fakers!  Peace out!

Offline JLI Jesse

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Re: Related to rants - are any of them right?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2006, 11:12:16 am »
The two I voted for are Doom isn't a racist and BP couldn't beat Cap.

I know there was that one scene from years ago when Doom said soemhting racist (I forget what) but I don;t think that fits his overall personality over the past 50 years.  Doom thinks everyone is inferior, regardless of race...for he is Doom!!!  ;D

Also, I loved the quote used years ago from Scott Lobdell.  Soemthing to the effect that if Cap was a god, he'd be the god of winning.  In the end, Cap. always comes out on top.


Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Related to rants - are any of them right?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2006, 12:01:10 pm »
The two I voted for are Doom isn't a racist and BP couldn't beat Cap.

I know there was that one scene from years ago when Doom said soemhting racist (I forget what) but I don;t think that fits his overall personality over the past 50 years.  Doom thinks everyone is inferior, regardless of race...for he is Doom!!!  ;D

Also, I loved the quote used years ago from Scott Lobdell.  Soemthing to the effect that if Cap was a god, he'd be the god of winning.  In the end, Cap. always comes out on top.

Interesting.  I agree completely about Doom seeing himself as superior to all mankind.  However, I don't think that he sees the rest of humanity as mass of undifferentiated inferiority.  To me the question is why wouldn't Doom be racist?  He probably has ideas about the relative worth of various religions and cultures too.

As for Cap, I think it's a matter of faith.  BP beating Cap is kind of the ultimate tribute to his prowess.  If that bothers you, well, sometimes people believe what they believe because they believe it.  Definitely your prerogative.
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Offline bluezulu

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Re: Related to rants - are any of them right?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2006, 01:04:21 pm »
I picked none at all. My thoughts on each of those are well documented. And on the Africans don't talk like that mess, the few Africans I have encountered loved hip hop music and culture and went out of their way to assimilate in their new home. I don't know how they talk when they with each other but from what I have personally witnessed I have not seen anything wrong with the dialog outside of you got me straight trippen boo. That only sounded kind of corny not because tchalla said it, anyone saying that makes it corny. :-\ . Maybe Im oversimplifying it but what kind of dialog is supposed to be written from an American, to Americans in an American Medium comics. Is this supposed to read like Shakespeare?

Offline Curtis Metcalf

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Re: Related to rants - are any of them right?
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2006, 02:03:01 pm »
Straight trippin', huh?  Well, it was the House of M story and I do think T'Challa was just amusing himself.  Flipping the Eugene Levy line from Bringing Down the House.
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Offline Wise Son

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Re: Related to rants - are any of them right?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2006, 02:11:57 am »
Straight trippin', huh?  Well, it was the House of M story and I do think T'Challa was just amusing himself.  Flipping the Eugene Levy line from Bringing Down the House.
Exactly. Whenever people complain about that I just want to scream 'HOUSE OF M! HOUSE OF M! YOU KNOW, THE ONE WHERE SPIDEY WAS A BALD MOVIE STAR AND JJJ WAS HIS BIGGEST FAN? AND CAP WAS A PENSIONER? AND MAGNETO WAS KING OF THE WORLD?'

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Offline bluezulu

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Re: Related to rants - are any of them right?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2006, 05:02:50 am »
That's not what I'm saying about the line. I don't have a problem with tchalla saying it or it being out of character or anything like that. some one used the term "jarring" to demonstrate your reaction to some of the dialogue. I only had that experience once and I found myself laughing out loud not because I had a problem with it only because I thought that was kind of a silly thing for anyone to tell anyone. So I guess Reg's use of the line was effective as it got a reaction out of me. :-\

Offline Wise Son

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Re: Related to rants - are any of them right?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2006, 05:12:48 am »
That's not what I'm saying about the line.
I know, it's just something I've seen people hold up as a proper example of how Hudlin's writing the character 'wrong'.
So I guess Reg's use of the line was effective as it got a reaction out of me. :-\
Exactly. It was funny.

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Re: Related to rants - are any of them right?
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2006, 07:56:27 am »
The complaints about continuity have some validity. I'm not gonna dig up the infamous
"retcon file" that was floating around CBR and Newsarma back in the day. But Hudlin
did change a lot. I happen to think that all of his changes were for the better. And
even if I didn't, I don't care as much, as long as the story is good. Continuity is no
longer the Holy Grail for me. I've lived through a dozen retcons, revamps, and
revisions in my lifetime. Just make the story interesting and I can easily compartmentalize
them in my mind. I've got both Man Of Steel and Birthright in my collection, and
can reread and enjoy them both, for different reasons, without worrying about which
one is the "real" origin of Superman (apparently, niether one is right now).

But, when you simply acknowledge the fact that the majority of comic-book readers and
buyers today are adults who've been reading comics for decades, you have to expect that
most of them are going to obsess over details of continuity, especially if they're not
explained properly, or could've been avoided, like the whole Radioactive Man thing. So,
yeah, if someone brings up their problems with Hudlin's continuity changes, that doesn't
neccessarily make them some rabid racist or hater.

Then, of course, there were the internal continuity problems which have popped up in
the series. Arc 1 was supposed to be a "Year One" story, yet seemed to be taking place
"now," with T'Challa just now becoming BP. Yet, Ross mentioned BP defeating the FF,
so when exactly did that happen. And how did it happen? The next arc definitely
took place soon after the first one, since they were still dealing with the fallout from the
Nigandan invasion, yet that clearly took place "now." And the search for a wife also
came right after that, with T'Challa in America, talking to "Dondi" regarding the
invasion. But then Panther is still supposed to have been an Avenger @ some point,
as he is know amongst the heroes, and references their time together on the team.

Again, I don't obsess over that stuff. But it's valid for some to say they'd like things
clarified. And by that I mean, clarified within the pages of the comic itself, not explained
on some message board.

Offline bluezulu

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Re: Related to rants - are any of them right?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2006, 08:18:38 am »
But if we come out of THE COMIC for a sec and look at how all of this came to be it is less about Reg's ability to write and more about Marvel Executive Decision.

1) They Choose to Cancel the Priest Series.
2) They approached Reg about writing for Marvel.
3) Reg who is a director wrote a treatment for the Black Panther (the movie)
4) Ahh Gee they liked it.
5) Marvel decide to release Reg's work as a mini
6) Marvel decided to use Reg's treatment as is or maybe with some revisions who knows.
7) The decision was made to make the book into an ongoing.
8) Instead of starting over with a new number one they decide to have Reggie pick up on number 7 onward tying it to his initial 6 issue mini, but then the editorial monkey of bringing the mini in line with the greater Marvel U. Based off of the 6 issue arc, it would have been hard to have Tchalla as a rookie when he had a history with a lot of Marvel Characters. Me personally would have preferred for Marvel to stick with their guns and made the Black Panther as they originally intended all new. Reggie has done a great job in making The Black Panther relevant and different from other Marvel stuff out now, but because of who knows the more The Black Panther has to "get in line" with other Marvel Characters he looses some of his edge and difference because he has to conform to Marvel 616 laws. Priest work will never go any where. It is funny that as the Fanboys are happy now that Reg's Black Panther is now more mainstream with some of the continuity explanations they don't complain about the parts that no one likes. Namely the brain aneurysm, the vacated throne, Kasper Cole and the gold frogs. To me you can't keep some and take out the other, well wait actually you can and Reg is doing a good job at it, but how can you argue continuity but when it's the stuff you don't mind seeing go to the way side its like..oh well.

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Re: Related to rants - are any of them right?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2006, 04:05:24 am »
First,I have to say that i loved PRIEST's take top to bottom.I loved the lyrical prose,the snappy hilarity and wit,the comedy,the intelligence,the very interesting and creative way he wrote the Panther and worked in about 90% of what had gone before in the Panther's past but recast it in such a way that BP became a fearsome,mysterious,incredibly regal,noble,magnificent and yes FLAWED character whom was simultaneously brilliant,lethal,cunning,masterful...and HUMAN.Loved PRIEST's work,loved it loved it and I just can't agree with ANY of his critics.

Having said that,I have to say this:

REG is killin it,dawg.

In the list/poll that you metnioned,I never agreed with a single one of the diatribes,I wrote at length about my positions on the original HEF. I love me some CAPTAIN AMERICA,really and truly...but I could never quite get why CAP should be able to take BP,other than the fact--okay,get ready to jump on me some fanboys/gals--that White creators of the MU said so.Certainly,there is no form of general real-world athletics that would lead to such a conclusion...the illest athletes and masters of combat sports have always been Black.Period.And if you posit that what essentially is the Golden Age of Africa which initiated in the land that DR. CHANCELLOR WILLIAMS in his groundbreaking work THE DESTRUCTION OF BLACK CIVILIZATION discovered through rigrorous research was indigenously referred to as Wose (the Greeks later referred to a sliver of this area as ETHIOPIA) and reached its most dazzling heights in NOWE (what the Greeks called Aigyptos,and through an accident of history this name became Egypt.This was the Greek name for the Pharoah Menes,whom lived in an area also known as HIKUPTAH,or "The Mansion of the Soul of Ptah") I say again that if you posit that this Golden Age never ended,never was destroyed by inner tensions and eventually coopted by barbaric slavers who later claimed to be the authors of the very civilization that we Black folks created while they were scratching in their Neanderthal caverns,that in fact this Golden Age flowered and gave birth to more and more astounding advancements and marvelous people,then further suppose that these people have developed a method to basically incarnate the ideals of the whole people into one person...

...you are talking about a person the likes of which the Marvel Universe has never seen or hinted at previously.We are talking about the real and true unfettered bad-assness of THE BLACK PANTHER.The BLACK PANTHER would mop the floor with virtually anyone,and should be able to take CAPTAIN AMERICA.

I love me some ULTIMATE TITLES,especially THE ULTIMATES,ULTIMATE XMEN,and ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN.TCHALLA as BP would whoop off on ULTIMATE CAP--who is my undisputed road dawg--and give it to the XMEN and SPIDEY.This man is the incarnation of a people whom never relinquished  their thousand year lead on the rest of the world,and is the flesh and blood articulation of their brilliance,their nobility,their warrior spirit,their boundless soul that has been joined with the miighty,mysterious,mystical might of the Panther God,their aspirations,their indomitability.This is a guy who put the one-hitter quitter down on ya boi KARNAK,who is a genuine badass.This is the man who ran circles around TONY STARK,and is the only one of THE ILLUMINATI to walk away and urge all other members to do likewise,as he clearly saw this as the path to ruin.Being the BP,he of course planned and prepared for the many various scenarios that could and would abound due to the existence and eventual failure of THE ILLUMINATI...and that's why BP's involvement in CIVIL WAR was inevitable.

I don'tthink that STORM would be locked into regal mode 24/7,and in fact there is extensive continuity (gasp) that has become canon on this very point.Back when she was Mohawk Storm,she did indeed evince a sense of humor,battle lust,and wildness.and oh my stars and  garters it was not only a white guy but one of the illest guys iwth a pen period who wrote this into canon...CHRIS CLAREMONT.I don't think that either STORM orBP spoke in any way unrealistically...not only would they know how and when wand where to speak to various people appropriately due to their long interactions with same,but I have family from Nigeria and Ghana who know every word of TUPAC and BIGGIE's albums and spit fire flow in both English and their indigenous tongues...accents and all.

As for continuity...how do we judge that EXACTLY? It seems to me that whe nBP first touched down,those two White guys who are sorta famous that came up with him in the first place made him bad enough and noble enough to take down the FF solo.After that dazzling debut,he basically turned into "get beat up and dragged off drab colorless guy".He seemed to have been retconned into a straight up softie,a wimp,a non-threatening uninteresting Afirmative Action cutout that could be trotted out for Marvel's equivalent of WE ARE THE WORLD every once in a decade or so.Then PRIEST came along and basically turned TCHALLA BACK INTO THE GUY HE ORIGINALLY WAS,and in the process  got some of the "play nice" cuffs loosened on him for long enough to make some very very much needed changes and corrections in the character.reg took al lthat and ran with it further,so while I do see the argument of those who charge retcon and whatnot,my response is that ultimately BP is a better,more powerful,stronger character for it.So I'm DOWN WITH THE KING like me and RUN DMC took a elevator ride to the basement...and there ya are.

The rest of the questions I have answered in previous posts,so I will let them go...
I AM THAT WHICH GODS,DEMONS,IMMORTALS AND ANGELS FEAR.I AM THAT WHICH PERFECTION ITSELF ASPIRES TO BE
BLACK PANTHER FANFIC:
http://archiveofourown.org/works/663070
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