"forced" or race in comics.

[blkyoda]

Colin,

 THANK GOD!! I start every class of mine on terrorism with that question. 'What is the oldest terrorist organization that the United States has faced?' Inevitably, the students say Al Qaeda, or Libya or some other such thing, maybe even the PLO. None of them seem to consider (and I taught at an HBCU a few years ago) or realize that the Klan is a long standing terrorist organization that calls for the overthrow. the OVERTHROW of the U.S. government. And yet they're still hanging around. And we're supposed to believe those clowns in D.C. can stop Islamic terrorists 1000 miles away? Whew, just a rant to thank you for bringing up a good point....back to the topic.

Honestly, I could give a rats rear end what most other people think of black panther. It's just not that deep to me. I am not enough of an internet guy that I have tasted the tone of several internet boards such that I can tell who says what and where. I just dont' care enough. I come to BP because I like talking comics with black folks, or at least folks who are down with a black character which occasionally suggests some degree of racial cognizance. What I haven't liked, and I have seen it on this board - so I can't say whether it is a general trend is two particular strains of thought.

1.) That people who don't like this incarnation of blackpanther views on race are immediately under suspicion
2.) The Reginald Hudlin is somehow a modern day Bill Cosby or Blair Underwood just because he decided he was gonna write a black comic book.

Some people just don't like black panther, my brother and my best friend both collect comics and both don't collect Bp on a regular basis. It has nothing to do with thier blackness, my friend simply thinks the character is boring. It's not any deeper than why I don't buy Green Lantern. Just don't usually like the guy no matter who's writing. Some people and I think someone here made the point that some people (like myself) feel the marriage is forced, happened way to quickly and there was little or no background in both the comic or character history to warrant such a huge event. Not that the event itself is bad but there isn't alot of depth to it. This and a bunch of other critiques of this book are often met with scorn and derision. Now I will say that all but about 3 people on this board (most of whom haven't returned) are totally cool and down to talk to anybody about anything - but everyboard has it's gadflys. I suspect that the strawmen racist fanboys at Comixfan or HeroesWorld are no more reflective of most comic fans than the 2 or 3 malcontents on this board are reflective of panther fans. Hell, there are about 20 of us on regular rotation on this site. The comic sells about 30K a month, we aren't even CLOSE to a reflection of how most fans feel about BP. Postive or negative. Anymore so than the few loud racists on other sites are a condemnation of all other fans.

I think alot of the angst that people express about the 'hatin' going on against BP is this whole 'us against the world' thing that makes people feel special that they're onto something that nobody gets or understands. I swear, it's not that deep. In the mid 90's TONS of people were hatin' on X-Men and Mark Waid. Now you've got TONS of people hatin' on Brian Bendis. Internet comic discussion are full of obnoxious twits who talk bad about other people's hobbies from the safety of thier college roomate's basements and the comfort of thier Lord of the Rings underoos. I just ignore 'em. Some are bigots, some are former fans and some are just trolls. I don't think enough comic fans CARE about BP that the comic has so antagonized thier racial bugaboos. Let's see Storm get knocked up in the next year or so. THAT will cause a s***storm the likes of which the comic world has NEVER seen. Until then, this is all much ado about nothing. Like R. Kelly said .... hater's gonna' hate....I see your point in part bluzulu but to me, BP has to last ALOT longer (and I don't care who the writer is) and have ALOT more critical impact to the MU before I think it will legitimately have the impact, good or bad, on comic fandom that you suggest. 

[Curtis Metcalf]

THANK GOD!! I start every class of mine on terrorism with that question. 'What is the oldest terrorist organization that the United States has faced?' Inevitably, the students say Al Qaeda, or Libya or some other such thing, maybe even the PLO. None of them seem to consider (and I taught at an HBCU a few years ago) or realize that the Klan is a long standing terrorist organization that calls for the overthrow. the OVERTHROW of the U.S. government. And yet they're still hanging around. And we're supposed to believe those clowns in D.C. can stop Islamic terrorists 1000 miles away?

Hear, hear.

What I haven't liked, and I have seen it on this board - so I can't say whether it is a general trend is two particular strains of thought.

1.) That people who don't like this incarnation of blackpanther views on race are immediately under suspicion
2.) The Reginald Hudlin is somehow a modern day Bill Cosby or Blair Underwood just because he decided he was gonna write a black comic book.

What Reginald has consistently said is that many (not all or even most) of the internet posters (not all comic readers) who have been critical of BP under the guise of a variety of complaints (continuity, timelines, reboot, "ghettoization", etc.) were at root put off by the politics of the book.  I think that is an astute observation.  Doesn't mean everybody with complaints fits that description but many do.

As for your second bullet point, huh?  Why Blair Underwood?  As for Cos, which incarnation do you mean?  On second thought, never mind.  The larger point is, Reg is a genuine good guy.  What's wrong with people recognizing that?

Some people just don't like black panther, my brother and my best friend both collect comics and both don't collect Bp on a regular basis. It has nothing to do with thier blackness, my friend simply thinks the character is boring. It's not any deeper than why I don't buy Green Lantern. Just don't usually like the guy no matter who's writing. Some people and I think someone here made the point that some people (like myself) feel the marriage is forced, happened way to quickly and there was little or no background in both the comic or character history to warrant such a huge event. Not that the event itself is bad but there isn't alot of depth to it. This and a bunch of other critiques of this book are often met with scorn and derision. Now I will say that all but about 3 people on this board (most of whom haven't returned) are totally cool and down to talk to anybody about anything - but everyboard has it's gadflys.

I don't know if you consider me one of the 3 gadflys but it seems to me that generally speaking, scorn and derision are handed out on this board when folks try to claim a monopoly on truth and objectivity for their opinions.  Or when folks admit they haven't read the book and therefore they literally do not know what they are talking about.  Of course there have been transgressions, nevertheless, I believe my characterization is substantially accurate.  We'll see what happens in HEF 2.0.

I think alot of the angst that people express about the 'hatin' going on against BP is this whole 'us against the world' thing that makes people feel special that they're onto something that nobody gets or understands.  I swear, it's not that deep.

Or maybe this is the book that some of us have been waiting for our whole comic book lives.  It is a rare expression that is congruent with our world view.  Maybe, just maybe, it is that deep for some of us.  Like P-Funk.

[Static Froggy]

ive noticed alot of this hatred too, its ridiculous, everyone says some of the most stupidest isht about it, I usually take it as folks whining, cause really seems to me people RARELy enjoy tehir comics nowadays, always find something to complain about, I mean people seem to think reggie is racist but has he ever SHOWN anything or said anything racist to (idk if this is the right word to use here) purport that fact? no, not at all, but byrne gets a pass, and he does ALL types of stuff, weirdness.......................and o yea, Toya I WENT TO COMIXFAN, im that Ult static guy

[stanleyballard]

True.  There are two sets of rules in this land we live in one applies to the majority and another to the minority.....live it everyday in the nation's capitol.

Enjoy BP and realize most readers don't go to internet boards and read for their persoanl pleasure as it is a form of literature.  For most people it is not that serious at all.

[bluezulu]

well even when i get "caught up" in the impact of this book, i am able to see in the bigger context that this is a comic book. much like a program on television if you dont like it don't watch/read it. some say that they speak out of love of the character and that they would rather see the character not exist if it tarnishes the great memory they have of the character. that is b/s to me. if that was the case then once babe ruth retired no one should play baseball again, once michael jordan retired the bulls should have closed up shop, once priest hung up the pen no one should touch the panther again? . if people don't like the black panther as written by reggie hudlin then thats fine, i have absolutly no problem with that. from time to time there have been posters who come in and say hey i have tried the book and i don't like it for this reason or that reason. cool. but the endless bashing off it, i don't understand? when the guys over at newsarama or comic book reources say that they want reg and his peace of trash, agenda pushing racist garbage to end they don't offer an alternitive. they don't speak of their love of the character. they usually point out they don't like the character. that is real suspect to me. what is to be gained and what is to be lost if this book and black talent is not involved in the marvel u? that is the issue.

[stanleyballard]

Agreed.  There really isn't a lot of diversity in the marketplace and honestly many of the so-called most powerful heroes are often boring....BP represents something unique as he can die and he is still a super hero as he saves peoples lives and takes himself and others to a higher responsiblity and level of esteem.

[supreme illuminati]

Whassup blkyoda and everybody else,just dropping by for some supreme illumination...



       In all of my life,I have met only ONE person whom I would consider a candidate for the fringe/quasi lunatic comic book guy,and that was the infamous Captain America fan encounter that I relayed back on HEF 1.0.The ironic thing is--as many here can attest to--I am a DEVOUT fan of Captain America,a steadfast and loyal buyer (when I have the money) and unabashed admirer.Hell,remember when Marvel had that MARVEL HEROES role playing game like DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS? CAPTAIN AMERICA was one of the guys I played the most.I especially like ULTIMATE CA,as my posts on that thread indicate.You know what else? RH is a CAP fan too...I remember his reference to the Captain America shield that he has on HEF 1.0.I remember him gushing that he loves Brubaker's Cap. I remember him annointing THE ULTIMATES as his favorite group about a year ago. I recall reading on RH's summary on the WHO IS THE BLACK PANTHER TPB that he considers BP to be to Africa what CAPTAIN AMERICA is to Americans...that CA embodies the ideals that makes us all proud to be called Americans,and the same holds true for BP.Reflect on that...RH said CA embodies the ideals that MAKES US ALL PROUD to be Americans.He didn't discount himself...he identifies himself as being American.But at no time does he ignore the fact that he is a Black man,he is fully aware of it and embraces it wholeheartedly and unreservedly...he even writes several paragraphs in which he extols the impact of hiphop--the music for the "badass" as he described it--in his pitch or summary to Marvel.He points out that being a Black man in America is an act of defiance,and people identify with/greatly admire that kind of character trait ( especially when it is done in  the context of a greater good.)

But racist? No. In the literal and deeper sense,if you are a Black person you CANNOT genuinely hate an entire branch of another race anywhere on this planet...as we are literally the mothers and fathers of every human that has ever existed.If you hate another race,at some point that hate is either exposed as ignorance that has been manipulated or self hate or tragically sometimes both.RH is not ignorant in that regard,doesn't evince even an atom of self-hate,gushes and exudes love for self and pride...thus he literally CANNOT be a racist.Not in the "racially prejudice"  sociological definition,and not in the common but less accurate definition either.

But being who he is,he is fully aware of both racism AND racists,and has no problem pointing it out where he thinks he sees it.He also has no problem with calling out those whom he considers to be intellectually dishonest.He has done both several times on the previous HEF and in other sites...what quite a few critics are not prepared for is his lack of ceremony when doing so.He'll call you a racist to your face AND to your momma's face and not stutter a single little bit...but that's a reflection of his strength of character,people.He says what he means,and more of us should be like that.However,HE NEVER STARTS THE BEEF...he's just not scared to chin-check those who DO START BEEF and somehow stupidly expect to be pampered and treated with kid gloves as they continue their rude diatribes.Remember the Storm fans and the others whom rushed over to this site? Remember how a virtual flame war THAT THEY INTITIATED ensued,and then how I and several other members onsite turned the discussion into an adult but intense analysis of the characters,their histories,and the merits of the various positions taken?

Ladies and gentleman,did RH start this negativity? I mean anywhere at any site? NEVER ONCE.What was occuring was something like this: a person or group of people would slam the book,and usually without reading a single lick of it.Many of the very few who DID read a portion of the book took CA losing to BP as the ultimate insult and concluded the book was about bashing White folks (as the bastion of White strength and manhood--the mighty CA--was felled by this jungle dude) and launched into all manner of discussions seeking to decorate their insecurity with specifics (like continuity,questions about BP's "new powers",outright profane vulgar denounciations of RH,BP,the story,the book,and anybody not THOR-LIKE defeating CA in single combat,all spouting from fans whom claim to be the most sincere followers of comics and devoid of even the most minute negative bias of any sort) when nothing could be further from the truth.These worthies were joined by more logical individuals whom had differing perspectives and concerns ranging from disliking the fact that RH's run wasn't basically PRIEST's run resurrected to the more conservative views epitomized by our dear internet friend,michaelintp,who was initially offended by the portrayal of the CONDOLEEZA RICE character,the General character,and any suggestion that the USA would seek to invade WAKANDA.He particularly objected to the roundtable discussion that attended ROSS' debriefing,and he emphasized that nobody would behave as the General did in such a meeting,as michaelintp himself is a federal employee (of managerial level,if I recall correctly) and gives his own word that no such behaviour would be remotely tolerated.All of us HEF vets recall these events and how impassioned and intense the discussions and debates would become...and to make matters more interesting,many of these different debates happened at the same time,yet somehow a member participating in only ONE aspect of the debate would feel as if he/she/they had a grasp of the ENTIRETY of the book and thus would make all forms of prognostications with deep solemnity and great authority,grave sincerity...all of which were proven wrong as can be.Proven logically,simply and clearly to be wrong as the story continued on.

And what was RH's main refrain back then? After annihilating the often lengthy contentions of his myriad critcs with just a few sparse sentences,he would frequently say:"Read the book".

Lo and behold,as we kept reading,each and every concern was dealt with in the story itself.Each and every one.

Now we can debate about and ultimately dislike the style of the story in various arcs.I thought that several of the issues of WHO IS THE BLACK PANTHER was slow,and I thought initially that the fight with the Black Knight was done too quickly.I thought that THE RHINO penetrating Wakanda's vaunted outer perimeter defenses was difficult to swallow.I thought that there were a couple of issues in there that were a little too slow in pacing.But as  I reflected on the books AFTER I READ THEM I thought I began to discern where this book might be heading,and I think that I have been right more times than I have been wrong.I saw that the Black Knight was swiftly defeated NOT because BK wasn't a tough adversary,but because BK made the mistake of tangling with BP and therefore got beat down quickly because BP is...in the words of CIEN on HEF 1.0 when the question of BP's power levels were brought up...A BADASS LEVEL 8 (RH liked that description).I recalled that THE RHINO fought The Hulk and survived intact,thus his breaching of some of Wakanda's perimeter defenses was reasonable when looked at from that perspective...and THEN I remembered that RH wrote KLAW reminding BATROC of that very thing,and it was in fact RH's scripted dialogue between KLAW AND BATROC that recalled to my mind that RHINO V HULK did indeed happen in the first place.This is an excellent point and an indication of RH's subtle but clearly expertise in his craft...the man can write and write well.blkyoda,I can see you thinking that the series wasn't very well written in your eyes,and that's cool...but I ask you: in the TWO THE HARD WAY arc,did not TCHALLA and CAGE's interaction ring as true and authentic to you? Did not CAGE'S history being retold far,far better than it ever has been in the space of a few pages--even by the writer who created CAGE's history in the first place,who had a double sized comic book to tell the story--not cause some form of admiration to be stirred in your heart? Did not the triumvirate of Shang-Chi,CAGE and BP not make your heart sing just a LITTLE bit? Didn't the humor that continues to spice the whole series not startle at least one chuckle out of you? As a professor,didn't you enjoy the discourse between BP and the Black Knight...especially when BP asked the Black Knight if he thought that God had abandoned him now that the Black Knight had lost? There were other examples aplenty throughout the series,but didn't that startle a chuckle out of you...a chuckle of appreciation of the both the humor AND the erudition in the question? Come on blkyoda...didn't you enjoy CAGE telling BP that he wasn't trying to hear anything about SHANG CHI being better than IRON FIST? Didn't you enjoy the MOKF climbing a mountain and fighting a dragon--classic,classic old skool kung fu epic storytelling--before crashing in on his father in yet another of those classic MOKF v FU MANCHU throwdowns...and in the process,didn't you feel RH when he FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY pointed out the stupid stupid stupid inconsistency obvious within his father's very name,which indicated the ignorance of the writers who first created the father of MOKF and set him up as MOKF's main antagonist? In that one correction,RH demonstrated 3 vital things: 1) That RH both possessed the academic knowledge to spot this gross error about FU MANCHU and cared enough to correct it,while providing the framework to do so 2) He did so without disrupting continuity  3) He IMO subtly made a very good point about the need of diversity in the writers of various characters,as I guarantee you that a Mandarin and/or Cantonese speaking Chinese writer would've NEVER let Shang-Chi's father have a name that was so grossly unfit for the character.That would be on the order of naming ROBIN HOOD'S nemesis THE SHERIFF OF NOTTINGHAM something like THIS DUDE FROM NOTTINGHAM,and keeping the name THIS DUDE FROM NOTTINGHAM since ROBIN HOOD's inception.

Are you telling me that you didn't feel JUST A TEENY BIT OF PRIDE when you saw BLADE,BROTHER VOODOO,CAGE,BP and MONICA together handling those vampires and the whole Katrina thing? Didn't you see the Black celebrities trying to help out with Katrina and being told "no" by the federal employee dude (that was sicc to me...a very potent metaphor on RH's part depicting the miserable failure by the US government to enact aid to NEW ORLEANS.I personally think find this failure more than a little suspicious and wouldn't at all by surprised to discover that this "failure" was in all actuality a combination of institutional governmental inteptitude and "policy" so that Whites could basically take back New Orleans) and blkyoda please don't tell me that you didn't think that GRADY AND FRED SANFORD wasn't funny? Come on dawg...only a Black writer could have dropped them in here,and I thought that it was madd funny.Btw,it was in the BRIDE arc that talk of THE BLACK AVENGERS was officially mentioned by the average Black peeps,too...on the block when FALCON was ondeck trying to locate BP after BP and CAGE flew away in the ninja super ship sent by Han.Lordy,I cracked up when RH had CAGE recognize HAN's name as the villain in ENTER THE DRAGON,another sweet reference (and I think almost everybody on HEF knows I'm a martial artist,and almost all of us martial artists love us some Bruce Lee.Didn't MOKF look like BRUCE to you? He definitely called Bruce to mind to me...) I loved BP's talk to Monica...I loved him making sure that BLADE looked like WESLEY.

I honestly prefer the look of PRIEST'S BP in suits though...the older baldheaded BP looked fly as hell in his suits and locs (black shades).Reminded me of Avey Brooks in A MAN CALLED HAWK...yall remember that?

In my opinion,blkyoda,RH's scripting and grasp of characterization,his humor and most recently his triumph in #18 is indicative of quality writing and then some.I have no problem with you not liking his style,or disagreeing with the speed with which BP and STORM get married...hey,I can see your perspective,albeit I disagree with your perspective in this regard.But I have to honestly ask you where do you spot--I mean specifically where --do you see subpar writing? Or were you just not feeling various books because the plot,theme,or whatever felt weak to you? I thought the BRIDE arc wasn't just arbitrarily throwing in guest appearances,I thought it showed BP's international pull and tossed a spotlight on the Orient as seen through the eyes of a brotha,plus it gave RH the opportunity to make the direly needed corrections to FU MANCHU and the other things that I alluded to earlier.Could you elaborate?

And honestly,I think that I and several other HEF members have demonstrated our open-mindedness time and time again.I don't think that it's accurate to portray the majority of the board as being initially or at any time during its previous and current membership makeup on HEF 1.0 or now as being close minded,reactionary or defensive...

[Curtis Metcalf]

Shine the light on us, SI. 

[KIP LEWIS]

Every time I read this thread's title, I can't help but think, "Of course, it's forced.  It's fiction.  Nothing in fiction happens unless a writer MAKES or forces it to happen.  It's all fake!"      I know, I know, that's not what they mean, but it's still, characters and stories don't actually write themselves.  (OK, stupid rant over.)

[blkyoda]

In my opinion,blkyoda,RH's scripting and grasp of characterization,his humor and most recently his triumph in #18 is indicative of quality writing and then some.I have no problem with you not liking his style,or disagreeing with the speed with which BP and STORM get married...hey,I can see your perspective,albeit I disagree with your perspective in this regard.But I have to honestly ask you where do you spot--I mean specifically where --do you see subpar writing? Or were you just not feeling various books because the plot,theme,or whatever felt weak to you? I thought the BRIDE arc wasn't just arbitrarily throwing in guest appearances,I thought it showed BP's international pull and tossed a spotlight on the Orient as seen through the eyes of a brotha,plus it gave RH the opportunity to make the direly needed corrections to FU MANCHU and the other things that I alluded to earlier.Could you elaborate?

And honestly,I think that I and several other HEF members have demonstrated our open-mindedness time and time again.I don't think that it's accurate to portray the majority of the board as being initially or at any time during its previous and current membership makeup on HEF 1.0 or now as being close minded,reactionary or defensive...

The main problem that I had in the comic which may come to an end now that T'Challa is married, is that the guy had no personality to me. Honestly he was a blank slate. I just didn't see WHY he was bothering to do most of what he did or why people were so impressed with him. Nothing he'd done so far in the book made me go 'WOW This guy's the sh*t' except for the House of M Crossover. I thought that was brilliant writing and thougt to myself then 'Okay, NOW I see where this is going, this guy IS a badass and a real take it straight to YA' kindof character. Then is just... I dunno fell off again. I've already talked a bit about how the initial arc left me flat. For a storyline called "Who is black panther' I honestly didn't feel like I knew Hudlin's version of him after the first six issues. In fact, I don't think I really even got an inkling into his character until issue 18, where the interplay between him and storm, in thier quiter moments was the first time I started to understand where this guy was coming from. That and the VERY well written scene where he tries to broker peace between Iron Man and Cap but makes it clear he ain't havin' none of that Civil War BS at his wedding. Even his self depricating disappointment about NOT brokering peace gave me some insight into the guy. HOPEFULLY that kind of dialogue and introspection continues. But to me, prior to this issue, he was just some dude running around from issue to issue with no themes that seemed to tie one issue to the next. I personally would have LOVED to see BP and Storm really date and court in the comic for awhile I think that would speak volumes about who he really is, but alas, they're already hitched so we'll see where it goes.
To me, good characterization means that I have a handle on what the main character is about, they can be enigmatic in some ways but to quote that famous actor phrase 'What's my MOTIVATION?" I couldn't figure out what T'Challas motivation was for anything in the first 10 issues or so. I read Peter David's Aquaman, and his motivation is ' Hey, I lost my kingdom I have to do everything in my power to reconsolidate my people.' So everything he did was moving towards that. Made sense. I read Strazynski's Amazing Spiderman and his motivation is 'I've GOT to get more balance in my life, I'm losing my wife, my job and my whole world because of this hero stuff, i need a mentor!" I didn't see much of that in early BP. I mean, you kill your father's murderer and the next thing you want to do is get laid and get married? HUH? I can go on and on, some people liked it, I didn't but that's the examples i can think of right now about why I found the writing poor. Issue # 18 was good, first time i saw some real character development, I hope it continues.

He didn't seem to EMOTE or feel much. I mean, the guy finally kills Klaw the man who capped his dad...And what? No speech, no page or two of him coming to grips with what the hell his life is about now? Now look, some people saw this in what was written, I didn't. It seemed like the moments of major IMPACT in this book thus far were just flat, with no real depth.

[Curtis Metcalf]

blkyoda, I have a request.  Could you please use the Insert Quote function so that your posts can be better understood?  You can just delete the parts you don't want to quote.  It really would make things clearer.  Thanks.

[blkyoda]

blkyoda, I have a request.  Could you please use the Insert Quote function so that your posts can be better understood?  You can just delete the parts you don't want to quote.  It really would make things clearer.  Thanks.

Will do Curtis. I JUST figured out how to use it in like... the last day or so. Makes things MUCH clearer.

[karaszero]

The Black Panther wasn't the only man of color to beat the brakes off Capt America, there was a Native American character named the Crow I can't remember the issue # now but I wiil provide it by tommorrow for anyone who wants to read it  but the story was about a battle between the New symbol of america vs the Old symbol of America. The Crow had Mystical powers I have never seen this character again I picked up BP because RH was involved don't have anything against Priest picked up his take on the character as well. I think reggie gives T'challa realistic charisma the brothers on this site understand T'challa is us or our brothers, uncles, fathers; completely unapologetic in your face deal with me cuz I AM!

[sinjection]

The Black Panther wasn't the only man of color to beat the brakes off Capt America, there was a Native American character named the Crow I can't remember the issue # now but I wiil provide it by tommorrow for anyone who wants to read it  but the story was about a battle between the New symbol of america vs the Old symbol of America. The Crow had Mystical powers I have never seen this character again I picked up BP because RH was involved don't have anything against Priest picked up his take on the character as well. I think reggie gives T'challa realistic charisma the brothers on this site understand T'challa is us or our brothers, uncles, fathers; completely unapologetic in your face deal with me cuz I AM!

I think I remember the Crow. He was outstanding. My first exposure to the Crow was in an issue of Spider-man. Thomas Fireheart, another Native American character, had the mystical ability to transform into sort of a were-puma. He was appropriately named the Puma because of this    Puma was a killer and avenger of his people. His targets were the unscrupulous men who had harmed his tribe or other vulnerable people, through their criminal dealings. Because he was a killer, this brought him into conflict with Spider-man. The story of the Puma vs Spider-man conflict was greatly enhanced when the Crow became involved.

As I remember him, the Crow - unlike T'Challa - had mystical powers. He had the ability to transform opponents to an alternate plane of existence. He could fly. He could simply disappear from one location and reappear at another by merely thinking it. He seemed more of an intermediary between the pantheon of Native American spirits to which he belonged and to the Native Americans who worshipped those gods. It's not a stretch to assume that a being with that much power would be more than a match for a human being in a fight...even a human being whose strength, perceptions, reflexes and abilities have been enhanced by a strength serum.

The Puma - and he is a very, very cool character. He's been under-utilized. He would make a fine addition to the "Mighty People-of-color Avengers  - had the ability to transform into a were-beast. This character's strength was enhanced by the strength and abilities of the puma. T'Challa's psycho-spiritual connection to the "Panther God" gives him somewhat of the same capability. The current Panther's vibranium-mesh habit, anti-metal claws and other weapons might even give him the advantage over the Puma. It isn't inconceivable that both the Puma and T'Challa, the Black Panther could give Captain America all he wanted and then some. But T'Chaka, the Black Panther is another story.

T'Chaka - Mr. Hudlin's T'Chaka anyway - battled Captain America armed with nothing but his psycho-spiritual connection to his Panther God and the knowledge that he was warrior king of an undefeated, indomitable nation. In my always humble opinion, T'Chaka's victory over Captain America is more impressive than any the Crow, the Puma or T'Challa have achieved.

[karaszero]

Yeah the crow was a good character, In the CA issue #292, He was a Native American man in a wheelchair and he had 3 forms; that of a man, he turned into a crow/bolt of lightning, and then a superhero. The Puma was a great character, but as far as Capt America goes wouldn't the time he spent as an Ice Cube make him more than Human? He was thawed out with all of his mental facilities intact, no cellular breakdown at all