Author Topic: The False Circular Logic Behind Hollywood’s Resistance to Black Entertainment  (Read 7586 times)

Offline Battle

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>>>Kristopher



I never liked the movie, "Rocky".











Did, however, like one musical score from the soundtrack but not the movie.

Offline Kristopher

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>>>Kristopher



I never liked the movie, "Rocky".











Did, however, like one musical score from the soundtrack but not the movie.

Whether you liked the "Rocky" movies is irrelevant, does what he said resonate with you (as a man) or do you reject it? That quote is something he said to his son after listening to him whine, bitch and crybaby about what he could and could not do(like many folk do nowadays). basically, real men didn't used to make little boy excuses. My parents said something similar to me and I plan to pass it on to my kids.  How do you carry it?

Offline Battle

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Whether you liked the "Rocky" movies is irrelevant, does what he said resonate with you (as a man)






No.  Not really, no.

Offline Kristopher

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Whether you liked the "Rocky" movies is irrelevant, does what he said resonate with you (as a man)






No.  Not really, no.

Okay.

Offline The Griot

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Here's my opinion, for what it's worth. I think we need more people following the Tyler Perry process. Now before y'all grab your torches and storm the castle, I'm talking about the steps he took to build his business, not the content. Putting it simply, he started a business. He didn't have money initially, he boot-strapped his way up. I'm sure he found investors along the way (there's that one brother with the book who claims to have been one), but what he did was straight entrepreneurial effort. It's not easy and it's risky as hell but I think that's what has to happen. Everyone won't be as successful as him; some people may end up being more successful. But ownership equals control. Until we own, we can't control. My primary business plan is modest; but my secondary plan is ambitious. But my plan is focused on ownership. With that, I can do what I want.

Mr. Perry had some serious issues with not paying his people what they were worth in order to save money. His business model includes turning other professionals into share croppers in order to make himself more wealthy. Pass. I prefer ethical capitalism myself.

I've heard that, too. I've heard that he does not pay union wages for writers and I'm all about people being paid what they're worth. But I'm sure these writers knew what they were going to be paid when they took the job. Georgia is a 'right to work state' for better or worse. As an employee, if I'm offered a job and I'm not happy with the pay I don't take it. It's that simple. If I take a job under an agreement and that agreement is not fulfilled then I have every right to bitch. But if I take a job that I agreed to take, get paid what I asked for or was offered, and then get pissed because my employer made a killing, then that's just tough. When I took my first research chemist job I asked what do I get if a product I developed did very well. My boss said, 'Nothing. You get paid to develop products. That's your job.'

But again, I'm not condoning everything the man does.  The core is that the man has created a business where he dictates what he will or will not do, not running behind the powers that be asking if a black man can live to the end of the movie this time, or if a black man and black woman can actually have a healthy relationship. It used to be said in ancient Rome, 'He who controls the mob controls Rome.' In this case, the mob is the audience. Perry has found his audience so he is somewhat immune to 'Hollywood' opinion as long as his movies continue to be profitable. It's basic business 101.
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Offline Redjack

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It's not quite as simple as that when it comes to TV writing. There are roughly 500 people writing all the television created by "Hollywood."

There are, conservatively, tens of thousands who are trying to get in.  Having worked on projects where the producers paid wages that amounted to less than minimum at the end of the year, i can say that there is a particular sort of evil in the minds of people who try to reap multimillions off the backs of the people who bust their asses to get them there without providing fair compensation for work.

Writing for TV is a series of freelance contracts. Coupled with residual payments for re-airing of shows, not paying a writing staff the wages required by the union may be a sound business decision but it's a sh*tty ethical one. I don't praise any business model that intentionally screws creatives. Business 101 does not automatically include treating workers like share croppers. The bastards in business would like people to think that but it's not so.

It's one thing to have a small start-up company, say a publishing company, and offer lower-than-standard advances to the writers who participate. On that level, everybody is starting up.  It's quite another to have a big, multimillion dollar production company, two slots of TV real estate (hundreds of millions of dollars) and shaft your writing staff to the point that the union has to step in even in a right-to-work state.

And, btw, Right To Work, is a misnomer. It's really Right to Screw Over.

If a white guy was doing that to his black staffers, people would have lost their damned minds. Because Saint Tyler makes some folks laugh, it's all good.

It's not all good. Some of it is BS. Nobody gets a pass on screwing the writers. Nobody. The Cult of the Velvet Rope is what protects Mr. Perry.

No writers, no show. Pay them what they're worth. Or stop going to church and pretending to be a Christian. Seems simple.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 02:54:46 pm by Redjack »
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Offline BmoreAkuma

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It's not quite as simple as that when it comes to TV writing. There are roughly 500 people writing all the television created by "Hollywood."

There are, conservatively, tens of thousands who are trying to get in.  Having worked on projects where the producers paid wages that amounted to less than minimum at the end of the year, i can say that there is a particular sort of evil in the minds of people who try to reap multimillions off the backs of the people who bust their asses to get them there.

Writing for TV is a series of freelance contracts. Coupled with residual payments for re-airing of shows, not paying a writing staff the wages required by the union may be a sound business decision but it's a sh*tty ethical one. I don't praise any business model that intentionally screws creatives. Business 101 does not automatically include treating workers like share croppers. The bastards in business would like people to think that but it's not so.

It's one thing to have a small start-up company, say a publishing company, and offer lower-than-standard advances to the writers who participate. On that level, everybody is starting up.  It's quite another to have a big, multimillion dollar production company, two slots of TV real estate (hundreds of millions of dollars) and shaft your writing staff to the point that the union has to step in even in a right-to-work state.

And, btw, Right To Work, is a misnomer. It's really Right to Screw Over.

If a white guy was doing that to his black staffers, people would have lost their damned minds. Because Saint Tyler makes some folks laugh, it's all good.

It's not all good. Some of it is BS. Nobody gets a pass on screwing the writers. Nobody. The Cult of the Velvet Rope is what protects Mr. Perry.

No writers, no show. Pay them what they're worth. Or stop going to church and pretending to be a Christian. Seems simple.
I appreciate the insight you provide us regarding writers and the such. Very eye opening
With these choices, I felt that the American black man only needed to choose which one to get eaten by; the liberal fox or the conservative wolf because both of them will eat him.

Offline Kristopher

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It's not quite as simple as that when it comes to TV writing. There are roughly 500 people writing all the television created by "Hollywood."

There are, conservatively, tens of thousands who are trying to get in.  Having worked on projects where the producers paid wages that amounted to less than minimum at the end of the year, i can say that there is a particular sort of evil in the minds of people who try to reap multimillions off the backs of the people who bust their asses to get them there.

Writing for TV is a series of freelance contracts. Coupled with residual payments for re-airing of shows, not paying a writing staff the wages required by the union may be a sound business decision but it's a sh*tty ethical one. I don't praise any business model that intentionally screws creatives. Business 101 does not automatically include treating workers like share croppers. The bastards in business would like people to think that but it's not so.

It's one thing to have a small start-up company, say a publishing company, and offer lower-than-standard advances to the writers who participate. On that level, everybody is starting up.  It's quite another to have a big, multimillion dollar production company, two slots of TV real estate (hundreds of millions of dollars) and shaft your writing staff to the point that the union has to step in even in a right-to-work state.

And, btw, Right To Work, is a misnomer. It's really Right to Screw Over.

If a white guy was doing that to his black staffers, people would have lost their damned minds. Because Saint Tyler makes some folks laugh, it's all good.

It's not all good. Some of it is BS. Nobody gets a pass on screwing the writers. Nobody. The Cult of the Velvet Rope is what protects Mr. Perry.

No writers, no show. Pay them what they're worth. Or stop going to church and pretending to be a Christian. Seems simple.
I appreciate the insight you provide us regarding writers and the such. Very eye opening

This reminds me of something Larry Hama recently  posted on Facebook regarding the comics industry:

"Painful truth: I was an editor for a long time, and I made it a point to tell every freelancer who walked into my office that the work for hire contract was a bad deal and they were better off owning their own stuff, but I never had a single person turn around and walk out the door."

Later in the thread:

"We're all faced with bad deals, but whether we agree to them is up to us, and years down the pike we have to accept that responsibility."

Maybe Larry watched those "Rocky" movies, too :o

Offline Redjack

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I know i sound harsh on this stuff sometimes but the thing is NOBODY told me anything about any of this stuff before I got into it and I got some REALLY rude awakenings when dealing with people who you would think should know better.

when black creators and execs behave this way, to me, it's worse because of our history in this country and the crap we all have to take to advance in an industry that STIL thinks we're a bunch of thugs and mammies. or, if we're not, then we're somehow not "real."

I hold black creators to a much higher standard because they should know better.

Everybody should know better, of course, but I don't have my guard down with anyone else.

It's not hard to be a decent person AND make money. How do I know?

I have a [redacted]ing mirror.

EDIT:

LARRY's not wrong but i put responsibility on the people in the power position, not on the desperate broke creative who needs a gig NOW or his or her rent isn't getting paid. It's not hard to write a contract that pays a fair wage for a fair day's work. Everyone knows what fair is and every business model could be fair. Anything that isn't fair is a matter of greed and nothing else.

yes, the freelancer doesn't have to sign an unfair contract but, when unfair contracts are all that exist, how are they supposed to eat?

Everybody wants to put the company and the worker on equal footing but, of course, that's never been the case and it's precisely why we have unions.

And it's why shady people rush off to Right to Work states to get around paying fair wages. WHose side should I be on in that equation? And, also, just because you're in a RTW state, it doesn't automatically follow that you MUST cheat your writers out of a decent wage. All it does is make fair wages a choice rather than an obligation.

Who you really are is what you do when no one is forcing you to be good. Do the math.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 02:52:32 pm by Redjack »
Soon you will come to know. When the bullet hits the bone.

Offline Kristopher

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I hold black creators to a much higher standard because they should know better.

Everybody should know better, of course, but I don't have my guard down with anyone else.

I don't hold Black folk to any different standard than I would hold anyone else when it comes to business/making money. Just because black people have been victims and mistreated does not bestow upon us any special sort of nobility or even empathy. We are still human beings that behave like most other human beings. Black people oppress each other all the time. We've oppressed Asian, Mexicans and any other group that we view as a threat. We've even oppressed white people when given the chance.

Like I tell my girls, "Protect yourself at all times".

Offline Redjack

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I hold black creators to a much higher standard because they should know better.

Everybody should know better, of course, but I don't have my guard down with anyone else.

I don't hold Black folk to any different standard than I would hold anyone else when it comes to business/making money. Just because black people have been victims and mistreated does not bestow upon us any special sort of nobility or even empathy. We are still human beings that behave like most other human beings. Black people oppress each other all the time. We've oppressed Asian, Mexicans and any other group that we view as a threat. We've even oppressed white people when given the chance.

Like I tell my girls, "Protect yourself at all times".

That's you. I know my history and try to act accordingly. I don't give anyone a pass. I expect black people to behave better than the people who mistreated us. When they don't it offends me more.

Soon you will come to know. When the bullet hits the bone.

Offline The Griot

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I know i sound harsh on this stuff sometimes but the thing is NOBODY told me anything about any of this stuff before I got into it and I got some REALLY rude awakenings when dealing with people who you would think should know better.

when black creators and execs behave this way, to me, it's worse because of our history in this country and the crap we all have to take to advance in an industry that STIL thinks we're a bunch of thugs and mammies. or, if we're not, then we're somehow not "real."

I hold black creators to a much higher standard because they should know better.

Everybody should know better, of course, but I don't have my guard down with anyone else.

It's not hard to be a decent person AND make money. How do I know?

I have a [redacted]ing mirror.

EDIT:

LARRY's not wrong but i put responsibility on the people in the power position, not on the desperate broke creative who needs a gig NOW or his or her rent isn't getting paid. It's not hard to write a contract that pays a fair wage for a fair day's work. Everyone knows what fair is and every business model could be fair. Anything that isn't fair is a matter of greed and nothing else.

yes, the freelancer doesn't have to sign an unfair contract but, when unfair contracts are all that exist, how are they supposed to eat?

Everybody wants to put the company and the worker on equal footing but, of course, that's never been the case and it's precisely why we have unions.

And it's why shady people rush off to Right to Work states to get around paying fair wages. WHose side should I be on in that equation? And, also, just because you're in a RTW state, it doesn't automatically follow that you MUST cheat your writers out of a decent wage. All it does is make fair wages a choice rather than an obligation.

Who you really are is what you do when no one is forcing you to be good. Do the math.



Not condoning bad behavior and certainly not planning to emulate it. But like Kris says, people are people. My first business was partially based on my high expectations of our people. I had a naive notion that if I provided our folks with an exclusive product to compete in a market where we dominated the positions that controlled purchasing that it would be a win-win situation for everyone. I was proven sadly wrong.

The black folks who get in these positions think they actually have to behave that way to be successful. Everyone they know is doing it so they think they need to to it, too. I've seen friends change on a dime once they get into management, behaving just like the managers they scorned when they were on my level. Sometimes the corporate culture demands it.

So while I now pursue a new challenge with the goal to make changes for the better of 'my folks,' I do so now with a more experienced view. I don't waste my energy on those who are out for themselves. I'm team with those such as yourself with a similar vision and move forward. That's all anyone can do.

"Happiness is dancing when the drumming is good."

Offline BmoreAkuma

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Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely
With these choices, I felt that the American black man only needed to choose which one to get eaten by; the liberal fox or the conservative wolf because both of them will eat him.

Offline Redjack

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I know i sound harsh on this stuff sometimes but the thing is NOBODY told me anything about any of this stuff before I got into it and I got some REALLY rude awakenings when dealing with people who you would think should know better.

when black creators and execs behave this way, to me, it's worse because of our history in this country and the crap we all have to take to advance in an industry that STIL thinks we're a bunch of thugs and mammies. or, if we're not, then we're somehow not "real."

I hold black creators to a much higher standard because they should know better.

Everybody should know better, of course, but I don't have my guard down with anyone else.

It's not hard to be a decent person AND make money. How do I know?

I have a [redacted]ing mirror.

EDIT:

LARRY's not wrong but i put responsibility on the people in the power position, not on the desperate broke creative who needs a gig NOW or his or her rent isn't getting paid. It's not hard to write a contract that pays a fair wage for a fair day's work. Everyone knows what fair is and every business model could be fair. Anything that isn't fair is a matter of greed and nothing else.

yes, the freelancer doesn't have to sign an unfair contract but, when unfair contracts are all that exist, how are they supposed to eat?

Everybody wants to put the company and the worker on equal footing but, of course, that's never been the case and it's precisely why we have unions.

And it's why shady people rush off to Right to Work states to get around paying fair wages. WHose side should I be on in that equation? And, also, just because you're in a RTW state, it doesn't automatically follow that you MUST cheat your writers out of a decent wage. All it does is make fair wages a choice rather than an obligation.

Who you really are is what you do when no one is forcing you to be good. Do the math.



Not condoning bad behavior and certainly not planning to emulate it. But like Kris says, people are people. My first business was partially based on my high expectations of our people. I had a naive notion that if I provided our folks with an exclusive product to compete in a market where we dominated the positions that controlled purchasing that it would be a win-win situation for everyone. I was proven sadly wrong.

The black folks who get in these positions think they actually have to behave that way to be successful. Everyone they know is doing it so they think they need to to it, too. I've seen friends change on a dime once they get into management, behaving just like the managers they scorned when they were on my level. Sometimes the corporate culture demands it.

So while I now pursue a new challenge with the goal to make changes for the better of 'my folks,' I do so now with a more experienced view. I don't waste my energy on those who are out for themselves. I'm team with those such as yourself with a similar vision and move forward. That's all anyone can do.



obviously you know i agree with you. I just feel these conversations should be had in public. it's good for folks who're thinking about this stuff to be able to decide, in advance, what sort of person they plan to be in business. and to know you don't have to be a bastard to get ahead.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 01:28:30 pm by Redjack »
Soon you will come to know. When the bullet hits the bone.

Offline Vic Vega

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It's interesting to how much this discussion dovetails with the controversy over After Watchmen.

It seems the pro-D.C. argument seems to be more or less: "Everybody gets screwed over,why should Alan Moore be any different?"