Author Topic: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America  (Read 4222 times)

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2012, 11:06:01 PM »
Too late;  a lynching already occurred.

There are really two crimes here - Zimmerman's actions, and the police not investigating the crime on the spot.  I've heard they did not give Zimmerman a drug or alcohol test, but that they gave the corpse one; that they made no attempt to find or notify the parents;  and that the police never spoke to Trayon's girlfriend who he was on the phone with up to seconds before the altercation began.  

The lack of police action and the good riddance/one less thug attitude prevalent in the social media reaffirms the default assumed criminal status of black men; it's open season on them with no repercussions.  Unless you are another black man.  

What's shocking about this case is how common it is...isn't there a similar murder of a young black male with no cause at least one a year in the national press?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 11:11:46 PM by Reginald Hudlin »

Offline BmoreAkuma

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Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2012, 05:17:34 AM »
Michael, thanks for the clarification on the possible relevance of the victim's background. I see what you mean about it going to the credibility of a self-defense story.

This is a tragedy above all. To me the outrage was the lack of a real investigation. I want to believe in due process. Cases like this try one's faith.

I agree with Michael though; I would hate to see a lynching. Without rule of law, we're left with the law of the jungle.
Technically with laws like "standing your ground" it is of the jungle already

Too late;  a lynching already occurred.

There are really two crimes here - Zimmerman's actions, and the police not investigating the crime on the spot.  I've heard they did not give Zimmerman a drug or alcohol test, but that they gave the corpse one; that they made no attempt to find or notify the parents;  and that the police never spoke to Trayon's girlfriend who he was on the phone with up to seconds before the altercation began. 

The lack of police action and the good riddance/one less thug attitude prevalent in the social media reaffirms the default assumed criminal status of black men; it's open season on them with no repercussions.  Unless you are another black man. 

What's shocking about this case is how common it is...isn't there a similar murder of a young black male with no cause at least one a year in the national press?
I am not even worry about zimmerman anymore. We should be completely furious on the police lack of responsibility of this case and half ass attempt of an investigation. It has come to a point of not trusting any authority figure with a badge. (long exaggeration but still)


They say that nobody is perfect. Then they tell you practice makes perfect. I wish they'd make up their minds.

Offline Battle

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Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #62 on: April 30, 2012, 05:45:22 AM »
Technically with laws like "standing your ground" it is of the jungle already.



Yup.

...and michaelintp, I know this is an exaggeration but I believe this example helps illustrate my point:
Check out one of my favorite modern western movies, "The Quick & The Dead".
That's what kind of world the "Stand Your Ground" law will turn into if left unchecked. Is that the kind of civil society you want to live in?

Offline michaelintp

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Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #63 on: April 30, 2012, 07:02:59 AM »
Regarding the drug test issue, the police had the opportunity to physically observe Zimmerman while in custody, and may have concluded that he was not high. I still wish they would have tested him (or I suppose requested the test), just to be 100% sure. However, you can tell a lot by physical observation of a living person whether he is high or not, and I would assume the police are fairly experienced in that regard. With a corpse, you need to do a drug test.

Did the police make any comment regarding the demeanor of Zimmerman and that he did not appear to be intoxicated, or has there been silence? Did the police address this issue in response to the investigation?  

If the drug test did show that Trayvon was on drugs (I don't know), that would further support the self-defense argument.

Too late;  a lynching already occurred.

Reginald, I understand how emotionally you feel that Zimmerman should be behind bars, that what he did was a lynching, etc (notwithstaning that it is actually the Black Panther Party that is opening advocating a lynching and offering to pay for it). I agree that what happened is horrible. But it seems to me that because of your strong emotions you are wholly ignoring the physical evidence that Zimmerman's actions, at the time of the confrontation, may have been in self-defense. Again, one does not need to believe that Zimmerman acted in self-defense with certainty; one only has to recognize that this possibility (supported by the physical evidence of his bloodied back of his head and grass stains on the back of his clothing) creates the necessary reasonable doubt to acquit him of the charge of murder.  

In our nation, defendants should be fairly charged, and accorded fair trials. Not simply strung up because they "deserve it" or because the public "demands it."

Of course I assume you too, as a decent person, find disturbing wholly repugnant the Black Panther Party's bounty offer.
(Note: Stikeouts as a result of conversation with Battle, below).
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 08:13:21 AM by michaelintp »

Offline Battle

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Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #64 on: April 30, 2012, 07:20:28 AM »
(notwithstaning that it is actually the Black Panther Party that is opening advocating a lynching and offering to pay for it).

Of course I assume you too, as a decent person, find wholly repugnant the Black Panther Party's bounty offer.






Source?

Offline michaelintp

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Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #65 on: April 30, 2012, 07:49:46 AM »
My source was the Dershowitz artice, posted above. Here is some more info:

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/27/nation/la-na-nn-black-panther-party-20120327

I see that literally it calls for the "citizen's arrest" of Zimmerman. Interesting. It does appear that I overstated what was literally announced. Thanks for indirectly pointing that out, that it was apparently not literally a "dead or alive" bounty. The bounty is not helpful in the present circumstances, however.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 10:10:30 AM by michaelintp »

Offline michaelintp

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Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #66 on: April 30, 2012, 08:03:03 AM »
Reginald, in any event, I too was very disturbed that an investigation was not opened up right away, though I had no idea what the nature of the charges might be. I agree that there may have been elements of racial profiling/dismissal going on initially, though I guess the counter argument is that the police immediately saw the physical evidence supporting Zimmerman's story. Other than a drug test, I'm not sure what else could have been immediatly investigated that was instead investigated later. Do you have any idea, from your reading, of what evidence would have been lost by reason of the delayed investigation?

I also agree that questionable cases should be investigated.

Another question:  I assume that everyone's analysis of the case would be unchanged if Zimmerman had been a black "self-appointed community watchman" and the killed 17-year old male had been Latino. You may respond that were that the case there would have been an immediate investigation, but I'm not sure, if the "community watchman" was known to the police and given the history of discrimination against Latinos and racial profiling of Latino males in the same demographic dressed the same way as Trayvon was. Assume the facts were the same, for purpose of this comment. I will say that my analysis of the case would be identical.

Offline Battle

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Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #67 on: April 30, 2012, 08:16:18 AM »
Another question:  I assume that everyone's analysis of the case would be unchanged if Zimmerman had been a black "self-appointed community watchman" and the killed 17-year old male had been Latino. You may respond that were that the case there would have been an immediate investigation, but I'm not sure, if the "community watchman" was known to the police and given the history of discrimination against Latinos and racial profiling of Latino males in the same demographic dressed the same way as Trayvon was. Assume the facts were the same, for purpose of this comment. I will say that my analysis of the case would be identical.






Doubtful. 
Here's an example: 
Whenever a police officer is off-duty, they inadvertantly become a "self-appointed community watchperson". 
When have you ever heard of a Black off-duty police officer that has pulled a loaded gun to shoot and kill a white perp or even an off-duty White police officer?

Offline michaelintp

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Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2012, 09:50:45 AM »
Guys, I just want to add please don't get me wrong.  I am very troubled by the initial failure to investigate. I am also very troubled by the real possibility that Zimmerman tried to restrain Trayvon, and Trayvon was just defending himself. And most troubled, of course, by Trayvon's death. Assuming there is a trial, we'll see what comes out.  Also there may be a civil case after the criminal trial, with a somewhat easier burden of proof to satisfy.  
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 09:53:07 AM by michaelintp »

Offline Reginald Hudlin

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Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2012, 04:09:27 PM »
A teenage kid is stalked by a grown man with a gun.  That's a terrifying situation.  If that was me at that age, or my son in a few years, I would be scared...because OF EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. 

An innocent kid killed for no reason than he was black and that was enough to make him appear like a criminal in Zimmerman's eyes.  It's just that simple. 

Zimmerman had no reason to "stand his ground".  He was PURSUING Martin.  Martin certainly had reason to "stand his ground" against Zimmerman - he was being chased by a grown man, a 100 lbs bigger than him, who was pursuing him with a deadly weapon for no reason at all. 

Given those circumstances, why does it matter if Zimmerman was injured?  We don't know what Zimmerman said to him.  We don't know if Zimmerman brandished his weapon.  But given his criminal record of domestic violence and attacking a police officer, and that fact that he was ignoring police advice and pursuing Martin in the first place, it's not absurd to think he did something threatening.

So Martin, smaller in size and unarmed, tries to defend himself against a stalker.  He dies at the hands of the stalker.  And its HIS fault?

If Martin was a woman, and both parties were the same race, how would this case go?

Offline michaelintp

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Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #70 on: May 01, 2012, 07:22:50 AM »
Reginald, I agree that your description of what happened is not unreasonable; in broad terms it is probably what happened, though I doubt Zimmerman immediately brandished his weapon, given the injuries he sustained. It is hard to believe that Trayvon would charge toward a gun pointed at him point blank. Also the Defense will argue that Zimmerman was not acting as a "stalker" but rather as a Community Watch volunteer. But that is probably not the way it would have appeared to Trayvon. And Zimmerman was acting in contradiction to police instruction, which I presume is not how Community Watch volunteers are supposed to behave, so perhaps that nullifies the Community Watch argument. In response to that, the Defense might argue that Zimmerman was just an overly-zealous Community Watch volunteer determined to protect his neighborhood, whose actions were colored by the fact (if true) that in the past criminals have gotten away by the time the police have arrived.

Your overall description of what happened is probably correct, though. Emphasis on the word "probably." In a civil case Zimmerman would be facing greater hazards under the preponderance of evidence standard.  But, as to the criminal charge of murder, given the injuries he sustained and the stains on his clothing, it would seem that the Defense has a strong self-defense argument. We don't know what happened at the time of the confrontation. Frankly, a part of me emotionally wishes he didn't have that corroborating evidence that, at that critical moment, he was acting in self-defense. But he does. Unless the forensic evidence will somehow contradict his story, which seems doubtful or else it would have already been disclosed.

The factors you describe regarding Zimmerman's past do help the prosecutor's case, if the prosecutor can get them into evidence. I have not read everything about the case, and was unaware of that background. Thanks for sharing the info. But Trayvon was not a woman or child either, so on that point I think you're going a bit overboard. However, I do see your point as to the weight differential, though I guess that would in part be influced by the physical shape Zimmerman is in. But I can see how their weight differential could be used by the prosecutor to argue that even if Zimmerman was bloodied and on his back, he could have subdued Trayvon in a non-lethal way even if he was acting in self-defense at that moment. That would have to be filtered throuigh the lense of this "stand your ground" principle, but it would be strange if that principle stood for the proposition that excessive force is always justified. So we'll see what happens at the trial, I guess, assuming the matter is not dismissed by the judge first. 

Moving beyond this specific case, what about the broader concept of community-based community-staffed neighborhood patrols? Should they be permitted, or are they taboo because a volunteer on patrol might follow a stranger, at night, etc. Should they be allowed to approach strangers? Wealthy neighborhoods can hire private security patrols. What about middle class or poorer communities? Are they out of luck? Permitted to rely only on the (often inadequate) police? If so, in some neighborhoods, you'll see slow responses if any, and rampant crime. Yet community volunteers can make mistakes in who they focus on (targeting strangers on the basis of gender, age, race, style of clothing, etc.) and may be influenced by racial prejudice. However, community volunteers can also be at risk, depending on whether the person they spot does end up being a criminal. Should they only be allowed to patrol and call the police, but not personally interact with persons on the street? If they do interact, at what lengths are they allowed to defend themselves if attacked?   

I do think a "stand your ground" rule in public areas is a dangerous social policy. (In your home against an intruder is another matter). Because the line between standing your ground and being the aggressor is rather fuzzy, or can be, in the context of an actual confrontation. As is evidenced by the discussion we have been having.

Offline Redjack

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Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #71 on: May 01, 2012, 01:55:47 PM »
Lethal force is only allowed, even with civilians, in cases where lethal force is being used against you.

no matter what your "state of mind," if I'm coming at you with my fists, you do not get to shoot me or even stab me. Legally you are allowed to fight back or to run.

unless it's proved that trayvon was armed and was in the act of assaulting or threatening zimmerman with that weapon, Zimmerman goes to prison.

this doesn't get muddier with Zimmerman stalking Trayvon, it gets clearer.

the only reason this is even an issue is because of Zimmerman's specific background and the way the cops handled this.

A child was murdered. in the street. near his father's home.

if Zimmerman doesn't go to prison whatever harm may come to him is entirely deserved. as is whatever he may endure should he go to prison.

he murdered a child.

he needs to pay.

end of story.
It's about gettin' down for what you stand for, yo. For real. -DMX

Offline michaelintp

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Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #72 on: May 01, 2012, 02:46:01 PM »
The actual law is that deadly force can be used if it is reasonably believed to be necessary to prevent great bodily harm.  There is no tit for tat, gun for gun, fist for fist requirement

The Use of Deadly Force under Florida Law: When is Self-Defense Available?

There are two primary statutes in Florida outlining when the use of deadly force is justified so as to avoid criminal liability. Under Section 776.012, Florida Statutes (Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” Law), a person is justified in using deadly force (and does not have a duty to retreat) if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony, or to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another. Under Section 782.02, Florida Statutes, the use of deadly force is further justified when a person is resisting any attempt to murder such person or to commit any felony upon him or her or upon or in any dwelling house in which the person is located.

If a defendant was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked where he or she was allowed to be, then the defendant has no duty of retreat and has a right to use force, or even deadly force, if the defendant (under those circumstances) reasonably believed that his or her use of force was necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm. This is the key provision of Florida’s “Stand your Ground” law.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 02:52:17 PM by michaelintp »

Offline Vic Vega

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Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #73 on: May 01, 2012, 02:57:47 PM »
How do you get to use or justify the use of lethal force against an unarmed assailant?

Are people in Fl. allowed to just shoot folks who happen to get the better of them in a street fight?

The community watch mandate doesn't go beyond "Observe and report" as far as I know.

Once Zimmerman approached Martin, he was in the wrong. That was why the Cops told him not to confront Martin.

Imagine some random dude (Zimmerman didn't have a uniform or anything like that AFAIK) trying to accost you demanding you present I.D. to him.

The amount of contortions that the Florida Police and Courts have gone through to avoid arresting, trying and even convicting Zimmerman are grotesque. I don't even see HOW "Stand Your Ground" could possibly apply here.  

How he Zimmerman going to claim that he was in fear for his life from a kid half his age who he had like, 100 pounds on?

I'd be shocked if Martin wasn't Black.

But he is, so I am not even surprised at all this.

Disgusted, yes.

Surprised, no.


Offline Redjack

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Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #74 on: May 01, 2012, 04:16:49 PM »
if you flipped their ethnicities, Zimmerman would already be dead.
It's about gettin' down for what you stand for, yo. For real. -DMX