Author Topic: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America  (Read 4228 times)

Offline michaelintp

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 441
    • View Profile
Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #120 on: May 20, 2012, 11:11:53 PM »
Battle, I can totally imagine.  Believe me, I can.

However, as much as I emotionally sympathize, I don't think Reginald is expressing the applicable legal standard.  So don't be surprised if in the actual case the court lays out a more rigorous burden that the prosecution will have to meet.

Offline Reginald Hudlin

  • Landlord
  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 6822
    • View Profile
Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #121 on: May 21, 2012, 04:24:26 AM »
NEWS ONE:

Zimmerman on Drugs With Violent Side Effects When He Killed Trayvon
May 20, 2012 134 By Kirsten West Savali
   
While the mainstream media made sure to report with exclamations and gasps that marijuana was found in Trayvon Martin‘s system on the night that he was killed, many outlets failed to also report that the level was well below what medical studies show cause “performance impairment.” The same can not be said for George Zimmerman. According to the paramedic report, the vigilante neighborhood watch captain was on the prescription drug Temazepam, reports MSNBC.com.

Temazepam, also known as Restoril, is known to cause insomnia and anxiety, reports MSNBC. But there are more important side effects that were not mentioned.

Newsone exclusively reports:
According to the U.S. National Library of Medicine, the drug is also known to cause “aggressiveness” and “hallucinations,” among other problematic symptoms.

From the U.S. Library of Medicine:
“You should know that some people who took medications for sleep got out of bed and drove their cars, prepared and ate food, had sex, made phone calls, or were involved in other activities while partially asleep. After they woke up, these people were usually unable to remember what they had done. Call your doctor right away if you find out that you have been driving or doing anything else while you were sleeping.

“You should know that your mental health may change in unexpected ways while you are taking this medication. It is hard to tell if these changes are caused by temazepam or if they are caused by physical or mental illnesses that you already have or suddenly develop. Tell your doctor right away if you experience any of the following symptoms: aggressiveness, strange or unusually outgoing behavior, hallucinations (seeing things or hearing voices that do not exist), feeling as if you are outside of your body, memory problems, difficulty concentrating, new or worsening depression, thinking about killing yourself, confusion, and any other changes in your usual thoughts, mood, or behavior. Be sure that your family knows which symptoms may be serious so that they can call the doctor if you are unable to seek treatment on your own.”

According to the U.S. Library of Medicine, after taking Temazepam, patients should not be walking around trying to watch anything or anyone. They are cautioned that if they do not sleep for at least 7-8 hours after taking the drug, they may experience memory loss. This means, that not only should Zimmerman not have gotten out of his car in an aggressive move to menace Trayvon, he should have stayed his “crazy and creepy” behind in the bed.

Zimmerman was also on the often abused prescription drug Adderall, which is known to cause “worsening mental or mood problems (eg, aggression, anxiety, delusions, depression, hallucination, hostility),” according to Drugs.com.

Maybe, now, the mainstream media will focus on Zimmerman — who not only has a prior violent criminal past, but was also on a mind-altering drug — instead of trying to vilify an innocent, 17-year-old child, who was murdered simply for trying to walk home to his father.
*********************************************************************
UPDATE: 5:57 P.M. EST: After some of our readers voiced concerns about whether this could potentially benefit Zimmerman’s defense, I decided to dig into the law and share with you all what I found:

1.) According to Steven J. Topazio, Attorney-at-Law, voluntary drug use does not excuse criminal acts.

“Defendants who commit crimes under the influence of drugs sometimes argue that their mental functioning was so impaired that they should not be held accountable for their conduct. Generally, however, voluntary impairment does not excuse criminal conduct, since people know or should know that drugs affect mental functioning, and they should therefore be held legally responsible if they commit crimes as a result of their voluntary use. An exception to this rule may exist in cases involving a crime that requires “specific intent,” in which the offender must have intended the precise result that occurred but arguably could not have formed that intent in his or her drugged state.

The caveat pertaining to “specific intent” led me to clarify  the definition of second-degree murder, which is what Zimmerman is charged with:

2.) Arnold Law Firm, LLC, in Florida says that to “convict a defendant in Florida of Second-degree murder, the State of Florida must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:
The victim is dead;

The death was caused by the criminal act of the defendant;

There was an unlawful killing of the victim by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.

Understanding a second degree murder can be more confusing than the more serious first degree murder. The “criminal act” reference in the statute must be a single event or series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or purpose of committing the murder or creating the dangerous condition that led to the death.

These facts are in keeping with Special Prosecutor Angela Corey‘s charge against Zimmerman.

After profiling Trayvon, Zimmerman exited his vehicle, followed him, then continued to follow him against 911 dispatch orders, stalked and menaced him, then killed him during an interaction that was “ultimately avoidable” by him:

“The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely, if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog in an effort to dispel each party’s concern,” the document by Sanford, Fla. Police said.

“There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter.”

Offline michaelintp

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 441
    • View Profile
Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #122 on: May 21, 2012, 08:44:05 AM »
Reginald, with all the reading you have done on this case, have you found no articles that seek to analyze the case from an objective legal perspective?  This article you post is clearly written by a cheerleader. The author ignores the distinction between predictable vs very remote drug reactions. The author views as a "concern" that the prescription drug might provide another defense. In describing second-degree murder, the author wholly ignores the issue of self-defense, which is central to this case. Finally, the author repeats the apparent lie that the police "ordered" Zimmerman not to follow Martin. (Unless there is some conversation beyond the text of the 911 call that I posted above, where the dispatcher merely said they didn't "need" Zimmerman to follow Martin).

The only thing of value in the article is that it conveys another bit of info that might make its way into evidence. From there on the author sheds any pretense of objectivity.

I really think you are kidding yourself and other Forum members by posting biased pieces that always favor conviction. As though this was a slam-dunk case for the prosecution. It is not.

Are some of the biased pieces just a setup to create unrealistic expectations in order to allege "racism" if Zimmerman is acquitted?

Offline Reginald Hudlin

  • Landlord
  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 6822
    • View Profile
Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #123 on: May 21, 2012, 12:42:13 PM »
Yes, I cruise a lot of leftist and progressive sites.  But I'm certainly not filtering for that...in fact, if I found the same information elsewhere, like the NY Times or Washington Post, I'd rather pull it from there.  But I don't dismiss things if I think the information is worthwhile.   

Offline michaelintp

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 441
    • View Profile
Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #124 on: May 21, 2012, 01:54:08 PM »
I hear ya.  Though the NY Times and Washington Post are not necessarily free from bias on issues either. One can usually tell from an article's tone, selective recitation of facts, and flaws in reasoning.  The same is true with right-wing sources. Which is why I've become increasingly impatient with the bullsh*t from both.

I'm particularly tired of the morphing of the editorial page with the front page to the point that one is just an extension of the other.

No wonder I would rather spend my free time following the adventures of Ender Wiggin.

Offline Reginald Hudlin

  • Landlord
  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 6822
    • View Profile
Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #125 on: June 04, 2012, 08:38:16 PM »
Credibility may prove key in George Zimmerman case
By Rene Stutzman and Jeff Weiner, Orlando Sentinel


6:53 p.m. EST, June 4, 2012


It is clear from court and public records that George Zimmerman has sometimes been less than truthful.

After shooting Trayvon Martin in late February, he told Sanford police he didn't have a criminal history. He did. Several weeks later, he told the Seminole County Sheriff's Office he had never been in a pretrial-diversion program. That's also untrue.

He contradicted himself on the witness stand in April, telling Trayvon's family during an apology that he had thought their son was close to his age. On the night of the shooting, Zimmerman, 28, described the 17-year-old to police as in his "late teens."

And now Zimmerman is back in jail because he sat silently as his wife, Shellie, testified — under oath — at his bond hearing in April that the couple were, essentially, flat broke. At the time, they had access to about $135,000, funds raised through a website he launched after he shot Trayvon.

Given that Zimmerman is the only surviving witness to the moments before the fatal shot, his credibility is important, experts say.

"Credibility is always a paramount issue in any trial," said Douglas Keene, a trial consultant and forensic psychologist based in Austin, Texas. In a self-defense case, he said, a jury must decide "whether or not someone can be trusted to have used good judgment."

If the Zimmerman case goes to trial, Keene said jurors will have to choose between competing narratives: Was George Zimmerman a vigilante profiling an unarmed teen? Or was he a concerned citizen trying to prevent crime in his community?

Zimmerman's self-defense claim may rest on whether jurors trust him "as a reporter of the facts," Keene said.

Many have speculated that the case won't get to trial but, rather, could be settled at an immunity hearing under Florida's stand-your-ground law, which allows deadly force to prevent death or serious injury.

If such a hearing takes place, the outcome would be in the hands of Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester — the same judge who just determined Zimmerman was deceitful and threw him back in jail.

"Judge Lester would have to find by a preponderance of the evidence that Mr. Zimmerman was justified in doing what he did," said Orlando defense attorney Andrew Moses. "The reality is, we're all human, and clearly the reality is that Judge Lester believes that he was not truthful" at the bond hearing.

Michael Grieco, a South Florida defense attorney and former Miami-Dade prosecutor, said Zimmerman may have hurt his credibility with the judge, but his silence at that bond hearing should not be a factor at trial.

"It's not going to become part of the case," Grieco said.

That's because before prosecutors could use Zimmerman's behavior at the hearing against him, they'd have to prove it's relevant. The Zimmermans' finances, Grieco said, have nothing to do with happened on the drizzly, dark evening when the Neighborhood Watch volunteer killed the Miami Gardens teenager.

In a blog post Monday, defense attorney Mark O'Mara wrote that Zimmerman "acknowledges that he allowed his financial situation to be misstated in court. … We feel the failure to disclose these funds was caused by fear, mistrust and confusion ...

"Mr. Zimmerman understands that this mistake has undermined his credibility, which he will have to work to repair," O'Mara wrote. He said would ask for a new bond hearing, but that won't happen this week. A courts spokeswoman said the judge is unavailable due to a "planned absence."

Zimmerman cooperated with Sanford police during their investigation, agreeing to five interviews and re-enacting what he says happened, but police said afterward that they doubted some of his statements, for example that before he shot Trayvon, the teenager had put his hand over Zimmerman's mouth.

If that were the case, police said, the cries for help in the background of one 911 call would be muffled.

Whether all the details he provided police were the truth, Zimmerman passed a voice-stress test, something similar to a lie-detector test, conducted by Sanford police Investigator William Ervin.

Authorities have not released its results.

At the April 20 bond hearing, Investigator Dale Gilbreath testified that Zimmerman's version of events was inconsistent with other evidence. He did not provide details, and Zimmerman's statements have not yet been released.

rstutzman@tribune.com or 407-650-67394. jeweiner@tribune.com or 407-420-5151.


Zimmerman's untrue statements

•The night he shot Trayvon Martin to death, police say Zimmerman told them his record was squeaky-clean. In fact, he had been charged in 2005 with resisting arrest without violence during an altercation with a state alcohol officer. Zimmerman wound up in a pretrial-diversion program, a scaled-down version of probation offered to nonviolent first-time offenders.

•When he was booked into the Seminole County Jail on April 23, he told the booking officer that he never had been in a pretrial-diversion program before, documents show.

•At his April 20 bond hearing, while making a surprise apology to Trayvon's family, Zimmerman said he didn't realize Trayvon was so young. In his call to police moments before the shooting, however, he described Trayvon — who was 17 — as in his "late teens."

•At that same hearing, Zimmerman sat silently and did not correct his wife, Shellie, when she, testifying under oath by telephone, said the couple had no savings. At that moment, the couple had at least $135,000 that she had transferred into her credit-union account a few days earlier from a PayPal account that Zimmerman had set up to collect donations.

Offline michaelintp

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 441
    • View Profile
Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #126 on: June 04, 2012, 08:53:57 PM »
Mr. Zimmerman does not appear to be the sharpest tack in the box.   ;)

Offline Reginald Hudlin

  • Landlord
  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 6822
    • View Profile
Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #127 on: June 04, 2012, 11:22:49 PM »
Mr. Zimmerman does not appear to be the sharpest tack in the box.   ;)
That's about the kindest thing you could say.  You could also call him a liar and a killer.

Offline michaelintp

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 441
    • View Profile
Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #128 on: June 07, 2012, 10:11:22 PM »
Though to complete the picture, in April Zimmerman's new criminal-defense attorney disclosed that Zimmerman passed the voice-stress test in his original interrogation by the police. While the accuracy of the test, like conventional lie detector tests, is subject to dispute, they are widely used by law enforcement. Of course the results of that test will never make their way into the criminal trial. Which is no doubt why his attorney released the information to the Media  With the hope that it will be tucked in the back of the jurors' minds.

Which only reinforces how foolish it was for Zimmerman to pull his stunts surrounding the bail hearing.  And for his legal counsel to allow that to happen.      

It is as if the guy is trying to shoot himself in the foot. Of course, if that is all he had done, he would not now be charged with second-degree murder.  :P

Offline Redjack

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1843
  • i've never had a hero. i don't worship people.
    • View Profile
    • a dreamnasium
Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #129 on: June 07, 2012, 10:49:01 PM »
yeah, because this is a situation to make jokes about.
It's about gettin' down for what you stand for, yo. For real. -DMX

Offline michaelintp

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 441
    • View Profile
Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #130 on: June 08, 2012, 06:06:42 AM »
Exactly my point. This is serious business, not just the story of some self-sabotaging moron. Because a young man was killed. Giving rise to the charge of second-degree murder.

Unlike some of the alleged "inconsistencies" fabricated by partisans, the bail hearing statements made or adopted by Zimmerman were outright lies. While this will not be admitted into evidence in the criminal trial, it may find its way into the back of some jurors' minds as well as the judge's. Which is why I am so surprised that Zimmerman's legal counsel was so ill-prepared as to allow it to happen, undermining their client's credibility. Particularly in light of the previous favorable disclosure that Zimmerman passed the voice-stress lie-detector test in his police interrogations.

« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 08:28:35 AM by michaelintp »

Offline Redjack

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1843
  • i've never had a hero. i don't worship people.
    • View Profile
    • a dreamnasium
Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #131 on: June 08, 2012, 09:40:58 AM »
it may come a s a shock to you but it may be that you're the only person who thinks Zimmerman had any credibility to erode.

he's a child murderer and that's the end of it.

Whether or not that gets born out in court is another matter but I'll be interested to see if the nation treats this "alleged" murderer the way they did OJ Simpson.

My bet is "not the same."
It's about gettin' down for what you stand for, yo. For real. -DMX

Offline michaelintp

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 441
    • View Profile
Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #132 on: June 08, 2012, 10:15:56 AM »
Well, I can't see myself ever joining a Lynch mob, I'll grant you that. I'm just trying to view the case in an objective legal fashion. without using colorful language and pre-judgments. This case will rise or fall on the basis of how well Zimmerman's story holds together. The prosecution case must be very convincing. Forinsic and physical evidence will probably be key. Including interpretation of the audio evidence and maybe witness testimony. It appears there was a struggle. It appears that at one point Zimmerman was on his back and he did have injuries on the back of his head. Zimmerman claims that he shot Martin in that struggle. However he could have shot him afterward, in anger. I've heard mixed things about how far the barrel of the gun had to be from Martin to produce the effects found. We also don't know all the details of what led up to the physical struggle, who physically attacked first, and so on.  

As to O.J., I trust you are aware that he was found civilly liable for the killings by a preponderance of the evidence.  The criminal standard of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is of course a more difficult standard to meet. Which is why he was acquitted in the criminal case. This is also why people should not have unrealistic expectations that Zimmerman will be convicted or even should be under the law, given the strong burden the state must meet. The case against Zimmerman is legally not a slam dunk.  
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 12:25:53 PM by michaelintp »

Offline Redjack

  • Honorary Wakandan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1843
  • i've never had a hero. i don't worship people.
    • View Profile
    • a dreamnasium
Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #133 on: June 08, 2012, 11:38:01 AM »
yes.

 thank you, once again, for educating me on things i didn't know.

what this comes down to is the Stand Your Ground Law.

If Treyvon was standing his ground after being stalked and accosted by an armed stranger, Zimmerman is done.

If Zimmerman was minding his own business and some unruly teen thug attacked him with intent to kill he--

 yeah, sorry.

he's a murderer.
It's about gettin' down for what you stand for, yo. For real. -DMX

Offline michaelintp

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 441
    • View Profile
Re: Trayvon Martin and Truth About America
« Reply #134 on: June 08, 2012, 11:52:32 AM »
It is not as simple as you wish it to be.

Perhaps the trial, and the judge's instructions to the jury, will be educational.

Maybe when we are at that point we can quote the jury instructions and compare them to your summary of the law, above.